heat4212

Being a good baseball player makes them a good baseball player.

 

Being a good soccer player makes them a good soccer player.

 

Being a good Scout makes them a good person.

 

Why is this so difficult to understand?  So I'm biased?  Yep, the principles of servant leadership, character development, and maturity growth are all dynamics of Scouting I also apply to the work I do in the various church youth ministries and community youth activities I work with in the area.  Works for all youth of these developmental ages.

 

I'm 65 years old.  I gave up basketball many years ago.  I gave up football even before that.  About 25 years ago I finally gave up baseball/softball.....   I'm still camping.....  and kayaking....  and canoeing.  It's Memorial Day weekend and it's the "official" start of summer.   My tent, my kayak and my canoes have all gotten wet already this year.    I've done 2 major road trips with my camper too, so I cheat a bit in my old age.  I'm still making it down the road.  Don't make home runs, baskets or touchdowns, but life is good.

 

Just know your unyielding, inflexible advice is making me hate scouting. Which I was pretty close to hating anyway because few parents in our Pack pull their weight. So the unhelpful advice of out-of-touch 'experienced' scouters + lazy millennial parents who sign their kids up for everything then drop and run + BSA launching a new, untested, unbalanced program = 3 less scouts. 

Thanks for the fun. 

It's May 28th. The carnival didn't happen. I am a parent, not a den leader. So you are seriously saying our Bears are just out of luck and there is nothing they can do about it? Too bad boys, your leader quit, your parents can't help, no badges!

You have admitted that you are not a Cub Scout leader or parent so why do you even troll this board? You do not know the new program, you argue semantics even when proven wrong, why don't you just let people who actually have experience with the new program offer useful advice and quit wasting our time.

What is the point of a Cub Scout Carnival anyway? Seems really lame to me.

Agreed. But it is a required adventure now, not an elective. Not a small part of another adventure, a whole adventure all by itself (including the prep work). Not only that, it forces the hand of the rest of the Pack. The Bears are supposed to do it a special event and work with younger scouts (so we have to incorporate it into B&G, camping, or a recruitment event... which usually are hard enough to pull off without adding more to them). 

In my Pack our Bear den leader just ignored this requirement. He never planned for it, he never mentioned it, and then quit the Pack in April. None of the other leaders stepped up to intervene. The other Bear parent was brand new and didn't understand that all opportunities to get this done had passed. The other leaders could barely manage to get their own dens' requirements finished up. My husband was Web I leader and by April I was scrambling over getting the Scouting requirements done with our Web II (who went without a leader the whole year because we used to do Web I and II together and realized too late that wasn't going to work anymore with the new program). 

It just so happens my homeschool co-op puts on a little "carnival" every Halloween. Older kids helping younger kids has always been a part of that (and my Bear's little brother was there who was a Wolf). Each family is responsible for setting up and leading a game, so he helped me with that. In April once I realized we were screwed on the Cub Scout carnival I had him make an award for a teacher at co-op, we talked about how we could do better next year, played a challenge game as a family, and I signed it off on the requirements.

So I am just curious if anyone thinks I made a wrong decision and allowed my son to get his Bear rank (or "award" if you must) when he didn't deserve it.

If you think what I did was okay, then all the preaching that has been going on in this post goes out the window. If you think my son should have been denied his Bear badge because I didn't follow the letter of the law (or handbook)... well then I am just glad you have no influence over my kids or our Pack because he did his best to complete the requirement under impossible circumstances and how can we expect an 8 year old to do any better?

Just to be clear, here are the requirements for Grin and Bear It:

Adventure Requirements:

1. Play a challenge game or initiative game with the members of your den. Take part in a reflection after the game.
2. Working with the members of your den, organize a Cub Scout carnival and lead it at a special event.
3. Help younger Cub Scouts take part in one of the events at the Cub Scout carnival.
4. After the Cub Scout carnival, discuss with the members of your den and your den leader what went well, what could be done better, and how everyone worked together to make the event a success.
5. Make and present an award to one of the adults who helped you organize the activities at the Cub Scout carnival.

I might be stuck staying whether I like it or not! We can't find a new treasurer to replace me. The CM volunteered so he could get out of being CM... but he has not even finished paying for his popcorn yet, so no way he's getting the checkbook. So then he tried to volun-told someone and she told me she was willing to try but isn't very good with math or computers. Sigh.... 

I don't think any of you really answered meyerc13's question re: the Cub Scout carnival. This is the kind of event that you can't just repeat or make-up. So... you are saying, too bad, no Bear rank for any scout that misses the carnival? No exceptions?

Or do you think it's okay for his parents to have a backyard carnival? Or for him to sub in his school's carnival? The book is pretty clear that it will be with "your den" "at a special event" (p. 98). And BTW, attending the carnival is required to complete Grin and Bear it Requirements 2, 3 & 4. So if he misses, he will only have 40% of that adventure completed with no way to make it up. 

I personally don't think there should be any requirements that can't be made up with family if they miss.  

@hear4212 Those ISAs at least used to be a hot button issue around here. Not sure we're the "discussion" was left as I took a hiatus but many were vehemently opposed to them, at least as far as fundraising proceedes.

 

If I were running a troop again I would at minimum require and app filled out and signed by the scouts and parents before handing over a book etc.

I have struggled with that question myself as Pack Treasurer. Our council pushes selling camp cards in the spring to cover the cost of day camp. But to get the early bird discount, most parents sign-up and pay for camp online before the fundraiser is even over! They usually tell me to just apply the funds earned to next year's dues or something in essence creating scout accounts! 

Since I have been in the Pack, our boys have only crossed over into two different troops. Both have ISAs so it's not been an issue. But if they didn't, now that I know what you all go through with buying items only to lose them, I would just offer the troop the check to reimburse them for the items they issue. It's a token, but hopefully these little things help the boys feel committed to their new troops. 

And because it's call graduation it implies to the parents this is the end of the program and now they are free to engage in any and all other programs for their boys.  Boy Scouts is just one of another option out there.

 

I crossed over 9 boys from a pack's graduation.  I handed out books and neckers and NEVER SAW ANY OF THOSE BOYS EVER AGAIN. 

 

I have seen boys cross over the bridge and then go sit with their parents because they had no intention of continuing on in Boy Scouts, the program is over, done, fini.  The "cross over" was a joke, but little Johnny didn't feel left out of walking over the bridge to nowhere.

 

Graduation 50 years ago marked the end of something.  If that's the message one wishes to promote, fine, but I've seen hundreds of potential scouts over the years simply disappear after graduation.

That's too bad. That is not my experience, however. We do the bridge but the only boys that cross it are the ones who have been visiting scout troops and committed to a troop. A rep from their new troop attends the ceremony and is on the other side of the bridge. The scout is also given a check made out to the troop with a portion of his fundraising sales to seed his new Scout Account. (I supposed that is one way to make up for the lost neckerchiefs and handbooks!) 

I don't know of a single boy that has graduated from our pack in the past 5 years who crossed the bridge and then dropped out of scouting within 2 years. We do have a boy who is a Web II but he did not visit any troops or show an interest in continuing and therefore is not walking the bridge. 

I love Scoutbook! It is not perfect, but last year our awards chair struggled mightily getting the den leaders to report scout achievements. They were a good group of guys, but not good with paperwork and documentation.

With Scoutbook, parents can enter things themselves, and the Awards chair at least knows that something is out there needing to be signed off by leadership. Our CM tends to stroll around during meetings chatting up the parents, so we gave him the job of verifying requirements for the den leaders. No, it's not ideal, but it keeps things moving forward, allows us to have less than perfect den leaders, and the Awards chair stays sane! Plus it looks good and I find myself looking for ways to do electives while out and about. If we take a family trip to a museum, I pop on there to see if there is anything we could do. I hate it when we miss out on something because we took the trip but forgot to "ask a scientist a question" or "look at a collection." 

Plus as Treasurer, I know what the Awards Chair expects to spend and can give her a check at committee meetings to put in our Scout Account! When you run the report of what you need to buy, you can create a PO that estimates that total of all awards. I like that feature!

I may not have been in Cub Scouts as a WDL for 20+ years, but I do know that the program has not changed that much.

 

First of all there are NO RANKS in Cub Scouts.  There are AWARDS.  One does NOT NEED TO GET THE TIGER award before working on his Wolf award.  If the boy doesn't do the work he doesn't get the award.  It means nothing towards the next year of Cubbing.  Do better next year....

 

Secondly there is no such thing as GRADUATION in Cub Scouts.  They have a year to earn an award and if they don't they simply go on to the next year.  Nothing more, nothing less.  AOL is the highest AWARD in Cub Scouting, not the highest RANK. 

On ranks, according to scouting.org:

"On the advancement trail, a Cub Scout progresses from rank to rank, learning new skills as he goes. Each of the ranks and awards in Cub Scouting has its own requirements. As you advance through the ranks, the requirements get more challenging, to match the new skills and abilities you learn as you get older."

The word "rank" is used 62 times in my son's Webelos handbook -- the first reference being: "Your first rank badge -- Bobcat." It seems to me that Cub Scouts does indeed have ranks. 

On graduation, scouting.org states:

"Graduation or transition ceremonies can be used when boys transition from one phase of the program to another on the Scouting trail." According to the guide, Cub Scout Ceremonies for Dens and Packs, "Transition ceremonies mark the transitions for Cub Scouts from Tiger Cub to Wolf, Wolf to Bear, Bear to Webelos Scout, and Webelos Scout to Boy Scout. They encourage boys to make the step up to their next challenge on the Scouting trail." This official BSA publication has a very detailed program to follow for a Transition Ceremony that should occur at the end of the school year. This is the ceremony we are having. I am sorry if the word graduation offends you, but it's another way to say Transition Ceremony which also very clearly does exist in Cub Scouts. 

Also Scout Shop sells a Cub Scout Pack Graduation Wall Certificate, Item: 620973. (Which if I had known this sooner, we maybe could've avoided this whole conversation). 

I'm incoming Tiger Den Leader (get my book tonight at the Crossover!).  I'd like to hear your observations or suggestions for that program, please.

I second debriefing the past leader! Then look at each requirement and make a list of everything that needs advance planning or can be done during an outing. Sit down with the Pack calendar and see if any requirements match up with Pack events (point out two birds, at a camp-out, for example. Or make up a game to add to the Bear Carnival for Games Tigers Play). Then plan for all the other stuff before the year even starts and give parents a schedule. 

This is a great resource for looking things up quickly and getting ideas for fulfilling each requirement:

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/cub-scouts/tiger-scouts.asp

I'm having trouble getting our treasurer to buy in to getting the belt loops and pins for the required adventures ahead of time.  We have plenty of money in our bank account, I think he's just afraid that our leaders will lose the loops/pins and we will have to re buy them.  Any ideas on how I can convince him that giving the boys immediate recognition is more of a priority than preventing the possible loss of a few awards?  Is there anywhere that I can find the "official" recommentation that they be given out immediately in print that I can share with him?

You should't have to convince the treasurer, only the committee. If they vote that's a good plan and there's money in the account, then there shouldn't be a problem! He can bring it up again at committee if his fears prove to be true. 

I am the treasurer in my Pack and my beef is that the awards chair expects me to run to the scout shop and top up our account every time she plans on going. I don't live anywhere near the scout shop and I keep telling her if she needs money in the account, then she needs to think to get a check at the committee meeting -- for the whole month! I am not running out there before every den meeting. I may as well BE the awards chair in that case. But I don't feel like I have the authority to just tell her no she can't have the money and overrule the decisions of the committee (who long ago voted to keep scout shop funds on hand at all times so awards can be bought frequently). 

But Cub Scouting is supposed to be a year round program.  Waiting until September or October to hold a camp-out is what put a lot of units into the mess they are now in.

Then why is the big national recruitment push (School Night for Scouting) in Sept? We got 8 of our 19 boys at that event. If we relied on the stuff we did over the summer, then those 8 boys (over 40% of the pack) would just be out of luck. That seems like a great way to turn off the new people! Seems like ranking up should happen August 31st if they seriously want us to be able to plan for summer activities helping fulfill requirements. 

I'm not saying we are separating them, I'm saying that a Bear has to do all of those things to complete a single required Adventure (which happens to be the one Adventure most of the kids in our Bear den are stuck on).  In Webelos, you would earn 2-3 require Adventures for doing the same thing.  You don't have to take my word for it, look at the requirements (they are online).  Webelos is easier than Bear.  It makes no sense, but it is what it is.

Yes, Webelos is much easier than Bear for sure! I mean, you could probably figure out a way to dumb down those Bear things, but I made the mistake of showing our Bear den the carnival requirement and just asking them to brainstorm. Within 5 minutes they had planned a dunk tank, wooden ticket booth, striped tents, ball pits, and the works. Maybe they meant for us to just paint faces and play some bag games on the lawn, but as written, it's a monumental task! Webelos are just instructed to make a fitness course with some "obstacles". Took one den meeting.

Also for some reason Bears have to plan and cook two different meals (one with the den and one outdoors... so neither is simple). Webelos just have to plan and make one meal for their family. My kids are Wolf, Bear, and Web II and my husband and I were Web I co-leaders, so the requirements are all very fresh in my mind!!

I've watched this thread ramble on for 4 pages now.  So I'm going to point out the elephant in the room.  There are some boys that have earned their award in Cub Scouting and some who haven't.  So, how's about giving the awards to those who have earned them and a pep talk about stepping up their game in Scouting to those who didn't.  If they don't learn from their mistakes they are simply going to repeat the process until it hits a point of real pain and disappointment, like a job advancement opportunity.  One is only perpetuating the problem by giving into the gimme, gimme, gimme attitudes of today's entitled children.  They have learned self-esteem and self-importance, but have totally missed the lesson on self-respect.  Scouting is a learning process.

LOL I don't think this is the elephant in the room... I think you have made your view very clear! And I don't disagree with the concept that not every boy should get an award just for showing up. We've never handed out a badge, pin, or patch that wasn't signed off on (sure, the parents have probably fudged things tons of times but that's on them). Boys have gone without at many a pack meeting or event (such as Pinewood).

But this is a graduation. Do the boys that don't finish their requirements get held back? Do they have to stay a Bear until they do a carnival? No. They get to walk across the stage and join the next rank. They get to graduate. So they DID earn something. Not a badge, not a pin, not an award, but by showing up all year and choosing to continue they have earned something.... even if it's just a new title. I just want to give them something that sends the message, congrats, you are a "Whatever" now!  To me the badge is like the rope or cord on the graduation gown. It's a distinction and an honor, but at the end of the day it's not necessary to graduate and move on. 

Let me ask this... does it bother you when scouts are awarded their scarf and slide for the next rank at graduation even if they haven't earned the badge from the previous rank? I doesn't bother me.... But this year we can't afford to do that since membership increased so much (those dues won't be paid until the fall). So whatever we hand out is a stand-in for the scarf and slide. We are not giving them an award they haven't earned. Just recognizing that they are graduating and moving on.  

I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  --Hey... maybe I will just hand them a picture of a scarf and slide!!  

Parents balk at any kind of work that needs to be done at home.  Why is that?  How is it any different if your child plays a sport and you have to go to practices before the game.  Its the same thing if you ask me. 

Personally I think it's all the other activities like sports that have made parents complacent. If they have to do more than drop-off and pick-up (like in sports or school clubs) they aren't interested! Some of our schools even have rules that parents can't get out of their cars when dropping kids off (supposedly for safety). It just re-inforces this idea that "someone else" runs their kid's activities. Since I homeschool, I haven't picked up those habits yet I guess! But it means I am the "someone else" at Scouts.... and I'll admit, I had a very hard time with that this past year!

Now that the year is over, I can't resist answering this question. My kids did not enjoy this year and have decided to quit. Luckily I was able to convince my Web II to visit some Boy Scout troops and he is going to give it a try... but it took a LOT of work to convince him it wouldn't be anything like this past years' Cub Scouts. 

I have really mixed feelings about it... I liked being on the committee and helping plan, but I also felt like I was standing in front of an oncoming train all year. I knew that many things were being overlooked from the new program, but I couldn't get anyone else to help plan ahead. I was stretched too thin to do it all on my own so I focused on making sure the big Pack events took place. By Feb panic mode set in because we were so far behind on badge requirements and my boys suffered as a result. It's a shame because we have been really involved in scouting for 4 years and it's been a great activity for the whole family, but I am not going to make them go. It's enough they finished out the year.

I would advise against the use of PVC in projects, especially if one is cutting it and the boys are breathing in the dust.  Stick with wood!

If you cut with one of these it doesn't make any dust:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCraft-Ratcheting-PVC-Cutter-T012-X/202351847

Plus, for engineering... the stomp rocket and the marshmallow shooter are just too much fun. We did those in Sept (to go with the recruitment rocket theme) and the boys are still talking about it. 

Not to mention these are better projects for kids with special needs (we have several aspie/autistic kids including my son). They were able to use the PVC cutter safely but could not handle using hand saws, coping saws, or hack saws which ruled out wood projects.  

Exactly. Let them learn early that better preparation will yield better performance.

 

@@heat4212, how much is left to do? Is there any reason you can't take the rest of May-August to get this all done and THEN give them their ranks?

Actually a lot of boys muscled through a ton of things this past week (weird how quickly 30 days goes by!!     )

I thought the cut-off was June 1st. I guess I'll let families know that's it's a possibility to finish up by August. We don't meet as dens over the summer (just one fun Pack event per month to keep in touch). I suspect the parents who did nothing for their kids during the year will continue doing nothing over the summer, but maybe some will surprise us. 

Really though we have a nice graduation tradition where every kid gets on stage, the parents present them with their rank badge, and then we take a family pic. I am just thinking what do we do in that moment for those kids who aren't getting a badge? A certificate? A homemade plaque? Is there some generic badge at the scout shop we can buy for their brag vest to commemorate the year? That's the kind of ideas I was going for. I wasn't trying to figure out a way to give them badges they haven't earned!

Wow, interesting debate! Thanks for all the feedback  

Especially thanks to meyerc13 for explaining the situation so perfectly! This is exactly where we are at except add that 40% of our Pack joined up on School Night for Scouting in Sept so we had that added headache of trying to get them caught up. The boys did a great job showing up and giving it their all throughout the year. The adults dropped the ball repeatedly due to 3 brand new den leaders, the new program, a Cub Master who put off planning all year, and parents who did very little outside of den meetings. 

For the record, I held a planning meeting for the committee in April of last year and I clearly remember pouring over that 100+ page .pdf trying to figure out where requirements overlapped so we could put events for the Pack on the calendar. I made spreadsheets and searched the web for advice, but I was focusing on outings and camp-outs. I missed the carnival, planting a garden, and all the Web things that take 30 days. I missed just about everything that said "share at a Pack meeting" or do with your den (partly because I was overwhelmed and partly because I expected the den leaders would step-up eventually -- there's only so much one person should reasonably be expected to do). In Feb. I realized my own kids were 5%, 17%, and 33% finished so I took it upon myself to get them up to speed. I just proclaimed our family a den and their homeschool co-op our Pack. After Feb. our real Pack meetings consist only of Pinewood Derby, Spring Camp-out, and Graduation. Not exactly conducive to showing off your engineering blueprints or animal care poster.

I will say our Tiger was fine! He was done in December     My biggest concern is for the other Web II (besides my son) who didn't finish one whole requirement all year due to chronic illness. It was his first year in scouting and he really did try his best. He is moving out of state next month so extra time really wouldn't make a difference... I just was hoping for ideas like a printable certificate or one of those cute altered candy bar wrappers or something. I don't believe in giving a trophy to everyone, but this is a graduation ceremony. All boys are moving on to the next level regardless, so I think each one should get something to commemorate the year and the work they did. None of them were slackers. Didn't mean to spark a whole ethical debate!! But I do appreciate all the thoughts.

This new program was rough on us and we have quite a few scouts who did NOT earn their rank badge. The boys all showed up and participated at den meetings, but we realized WAY too late that meeting only twice per month was not enough to get these new requirements done (especially Bear... what's up with Bear?!?!) and we had a big surge in membership in Sept (which means they missed everything we did at our summer camp-out and Day Camp). 

Anyway, I want to recognize the hard work these kids put in at graduation even though they won't be getting their badges. What do you all do? This is the first time in my 4 years with this Pack that a kid (much less several) did not earn his badge.  

We LOVED the engineering badge! I wish I would have seen this post sooner... We made this marshmallow shooter and it was a HUGE hit! 

http://www.howtoons.com/?page_id=139

The comic shows the boy making a blueprint of his shooter so it was an easy jump for our boys to do their own on graph paper. I bought extra fittings and joints so they could actually experiment with different configurations. Also I encouraged them to play with a test model first (swapping out parts to make the barrel longer and shorter, etc.) so they could see what effect that had (for example, a longer barrel shoots further... ask them to guess why?). That encouraged them to put measurements on their blueprints. It was lots of fun! Hour went by too quickly!

The PVC you need is cheap and easy to work with. I did buy two PVC cutting tools though because they seemed much safer for boys to handle than hack saws. 

We made stomp rockets for our second project using the same PVC pipe. We ended up going with a version where you just duct-taped an old piece of garden house (2-3') to a 12-15" length of 1/4" PVC on one end and the plastic 2-liter bottle on the other. So easy and again... most fun we had all year!

But I truly believe this is a good idea to avoid Cub Scouts that do six years of pinewood derbies and six years of blue and golds and six years of etc, etc, etc.  

Amen to that!! My youngest has been tagging along with his older brothers for years. He thinks now that my oldest is graduating that he should get to be done too! He was devastated to hear that he still had 3 more years of Cub Scouts and begged to stop. I told him we could take a year off and see if he wanted to try again later. Luckily with the new program he can wait until Web II and still get his arrow of light. Which he really wants for some reason....

I actually get the popcorn sale... purely from a math standpoint. Last year I calculated that each scout would need to sell about 40 bags of popcorn to meet their $650 goal. (Assuming they sell mostly caramels, zero gift boxes, and a couple of each other flavor which is pretty typical around here). That's not actually too hard to do.

Girl Scouts, on the other hand, need to sell over 230 boxes of cookies to clear the same amount of money for the troop. Granted most people buy a couple of boxes of cookies, I also get a lot of people who buy more than one bag of popcorn. So even if they sell 3 per customer that's over 75 buyers they have to scrounge up to my 30. I can live with that.

What kills me is the value for the money. I think people expect to pay, or at least tolerate paying about double the market value of a fundraising item. They will buy a .50 candy bar for a dollar because a cute little kid is selling it to play baseball. Same goes for the wrapping paper, cookies, whatever. But 5.25 freaking ounces of popcorn for $15?!?! That is cringe-worthy. 

For those of you that don't sell... do you have a different fundraiser? If not, how do you get by? If we didn't sell, we would have to raise dues to like $200 a year. Or nickel and dime parents for patches and Pack meeting and what not. 

The new Prize provider seems to have a much greater choice of prizes.  better quality prizes IMO as well.

I agree! I had two kids hit $1,500 last year just for the Star Wars Lego set. 

Not sad to see Bacon ranch gone, but I can't believe they shrank the White Cheddar and Jalapeno again. I was already embarrassed when delivering this stuff last year and now it will be even worse.

I know all the lines about "you are not buying popcorn, you are supporting scouting" but still. There is no way we are going door to door without product in hand. I want people to see what they are buying and know right off the bat that they are basically handing over a lot of money for very little.