sierracharliescouter

2 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

Dont tell people on here you knew a non theist scout there are some people who wouldn't want him in our organization because he doesn't believe in a god. As backwards as that opinion is.

If BSA conducted a truly anonymous poll of their membership, at least 10% would declare themselves atheist, and at least another 10% non-practicing religion. The Declaration of Religious Principles needs to be dropped.

BSA knows they can't afford to lose another 20% of their membership. It is "don't ask, don't tell" at this point.

I'm in a very diverse unit, in a somewhat diverse, but still heavily Christian district. I'm Jewish, which is a tiny minority in these parts.

In general, our district events are kept truly non-denominational, and we generally guide scouts leading events like Scouts Own to use non-denominational content. They do a good job with that, but every so often a scout or adult will slip in a "in Jesus' name we pray" at the end of what they are saying. I don't take any offense at at that, because I know that is part of how they personally are used to saying prayers. Would I prefer if they didn't say that part? Sure, but I'm tolerant, as a Scout should be, and it isn't worth taking offensive over. I don't leap to consider that proselytizing.

Funny Philmont story. I was the adult advisor. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Sikh, Muslim, and one that was non-theist, all in the same crew. Visually, also very obviously diverse group. Our ranger starts to ask us if we want to attend a Philmont religious service to fulfill part of the Duty to God patch requirement. I asked, what is the service based on? Well, only the Catholic service was available that day. I looked around at the scouts with an inquisitive eyebrow raised, the scouts looked at the ranger, and the ranger said "I guess that'll be a no".

I'm personally not a fan of the flap covering the uniform buttons. Seems like an added cost without much purpose.

4 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Curious as to what part of the GTSS you have to break just to have your scouts complete their advancement requirements.

 

Bears using hand saws.

And someone explain why Lions and Tigers are shown as "map only" when it comes to map and compass. Is there some conspiracy I haven't heard of that makes using a compass dangerous?

Also, poor relativistic risk assessment, such as Lions and Tigers allowed to do bouldering, but not other activities with similar or higher risk factors.

1 hour ago, cmd said:

This sounds a whole lot like permission from @RichardB to ignore the entire g2ss, because harm only comes from your beliefs and not your actions. 

Well, I'm still not clear if I need permission to deviate from GTSS, because I still don't know if it is a "guide" or absolute, never to be broken, rules. Given that I have to break some of GTSS just to have scouts actually complete their advancement requirements, I'm stuck in Scout-rules purgatory.

51 minutes ago, RichardB said:

@sierracharliescouter No one will harm you without your consent; you will only be harmed when you think you are harmed.    Epictetus...

 

That somehow seems like an inappropriate quote given Scouting's past problems...

@RichardB

I hope you aren't taking what is written here as beating up on you personally. I don't think any of us intend it that way. We appreciate having a voice from National participating here.

What National needs understand, however, is that the participants in this forum represent a microcosm of what the overall volunteer experience is like in Scouting. Those of us in leadership positions face these same questions from other Scouters, parents, and some of the Scouts when we have to explain the "rules" (or are they guidelines? - yes, there absolutely is a legal difference...). When rules don't have a logically explained justification is when people start finding ways to go around the rules.

Now, if risk management has some actual analysis that says, "90% of Cub scout injuries on camping trips are occuring on the second night of a two-night outing", then there is a conversation to have about mitigating risk. If these are risk management decisions that are being driven by lawyers or people with no professional (outside of scouting) understanding of risk management and not by data, then you have a major problem with your risk management program. If you have a risk management team and upper management that doesn't understand data-driven risk management, you have a fundamental organizational problem.

22 minutes ago, RichardB said:

 

As to why, the limitation on Pack and Webelos / AOL Den camping of one night as an age appropriate guideline.    This has been in place for a long time - can query on this forum back to 2019, your own posting of the chart, BALOO training, Cub Scout page, etc.

 

This is not a "why" explanation, in any meaningful way. "Because it's been this way" is not a rationale. Looking through the references you provided, none appear to provide a rationale for restricting Cub camping to single night.

2 hours ago, nolesrule said:

I sincerely doubt the lawyers missed this one.

Three problems with this statement:

1) Never make an definitive assumption that the lawyer got it right.

2) I don't know who BSA is using for their lawyers, but it is always good to keep in mind that the person who graduated last in their class at law school and finally passed the bar exam on their 5th attempt is still allowed to call themselves a "lawyer".

3) Being a BSA volunteer shouldn't require a legal background to understand the rules.

The way insurance policies often work, however, is there would likely need to be a substantive reason why the lack of a fundraising application was reasonably causative to the claim for denial. i.e., if your troop is selling meat sticks from company A, but didn't file a fundraising application, and had a claim related to the event, it would be very difficult to deny a claim if the Council would have otherwise approved the application, and even more difficult to deny if they had other troops that had approved applications for selling the same product in a similar way.

The fundamental flaw to this approach is it just sets up opportunities for units to ignore the rules. This is analogous to the old requirement for approved trip plans. It was ridiculous, and put an undue burden on both units and the council, just setting up for people to ignore the rules (which clearly happens all the time with fundraising). BSA needs to get on board with simplifying the volunteer experience, ASAP.

The number one reason we have trouble recruiting adults is the unreasonable time commitments and procedural blockades put on volunteers who want to help, but have trouble figuring out what they need to do, and overwhelmed by the requirements when they learn them. In California, in order for the parent of a new scout to join us on an outing where they have to be a registered scouter, they have to commit to 6 hours of training plus fingerprint background check. BSA registration plus fingerprinting is a minimum of $92.  

Every year the program grows more complicated. It has become a full-on bureaucracy, which it's primary mission to justify it's own existence. It doesn't need to be this way, but BSA's own hiring practices lead to this end, because the focus on internal hiring prevents bringing in new ideas and experiences. People who only "know" the bureaucracy don't grasp the effect it has on those outside it's walls.

Here's another fine example: The BSA Safe Project Tool Use rules. The guide includes this statement:

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"The safety of our Scouts, volunteers, employees, and communities is our top priority. This document outlines several minimum guiding protocols that adult leaders and other volunteers must consider for Scouting service projects that include the use of tools. It is not intended to cover the use of tools integrated into advancement requirements (i.e., merit badges, handbooks, or adventures)."

So, the document grid says that Cubs can't use handsaws, yet we teach them how to use hand saws in Baloo the Builder. Why would we teach them a skill and then not let them use it? Does anyone at BSA actually understand their own program??  That is not the only inconsistency. Again, when you make rules that are internally inconsistent, people will feel much more comfortable breaking the rules. Part of my job for over 25 years has been safety supervision, and rule number one for safety rules is to not provide motivations for ignoring the rules. 

We recognize the scouts that age-out without Eagle. We do it in a couple of ways. As mentioned above, we will recognize them at their last outing - often gifting them a water bottle from that location, if available, and recognize them at their last scout meeting before turning 18. For the ones that are interested, we absolutely extend an open invitation for now or in the future to continue with the unit as an adult, including participating in high adventure treks.  

On 1/31/2023 at 5:48 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

And, if you are paying someone to create a good program, do you think they are going to come back to you and say, "The solution is less programming, and and more emphasis on unstructured fun in the outdoors!" ???

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

It's like asking a lawyer to review a risk management policy. Your chance of getting something less restrictive is less than zero.

There is a position called "Key 3 Delegate". This is someone who can act in lieu of the SM or CC in their absence. I am an ASM for our troop, but was listed officially as a Key 3 Delegate for the troop a couple years ago when our SM was unavailable for a few months. They've kept that designation for me "just in case", and it has been useful a couple times, and takes the stress of the CC and SM to feel like they always need to be available.

We do both, and most of the scouts who do the HA activity also do summer camp. The younger scouts need at least a few of the older scouts to help them along through summer camp. 

For the past couple years our council has been on a "YPT every year for everyone" basis for recharter, to eliminate the possibility of someone's YPT expiring while they are still actively registered with a unit.

I'd suggest maybe taking a little step back from the troop meetings, but encourage him to get some fun merit badges done. It's unfortunate that he didn't get any at summer camp. Our troop doesn't allow participation in most first-year or trail-to-first-class programs, because we want advancement to be natural and within the troop. 

My older son was Mr. Gung-ho scout for his first 4 years, and he even completed a lot of high adventure. Now he is Life but almost burned out, and he finds himself dragging himself across the finish line.  My younger son (2 years younger) was not into the program much at all. Didn't fight it, but just not that happy with camping and taking responsibility. Now, almost 3 years into ScoutsBSA and almost first-class, but with a good stash of merit badges he's proud of, he's on a turn around and eagerly participates, is looking forward to being a Troop Guide and taking on some high adventure. 

Kids mature at different rates, and have different interests at different times. Through COVID on top of that and their lives are scrambled and many are just now starting to figure out what "normal" feels like to them.

I agree with the idea of having them to loan to scouts. On the packs though, a 65L pack is likely not sized properly for a younger scout, and could make their first backpacking experience miserable. You might even consider selling/trading those big packs for smaller ones more likely to be used by younger scouts, or sending a note out to the troop and troop alumni asking if they have smaller packs they would be willing to donate for the troop to loan out.

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Sorry to hear. You may want to get some assistance in coaching how to deal with this. Your DE or SE may be able to put you in touch with some good resources for youth leaders.

I would reach out to the school(s) your scouts attend who are close to this scout for resources. This is tough because the parents and scout likely don't want it broadcast what happened, so you need to limit what you say and do to only those scouts who will be in the know on this. 

Thank you for being there for this family. This really is the hardest stuff, which has unfortunately struck close to home (non-scout friends) recently for a few of our scouts.

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There really isn't a young American who is competent enough in survival to be a media facing brand ambassador. 

Are you sure? Even if there isn't, why not create one? Do you really think none of the BSA alumni from the past 10 years have that ability? Better yet, it should be one should be both a man and a woman. If they exist, YouTube is where you'd find them, and where they should be promoting. It all shouldn't just be about survival, it should be about volunteerism and other traits that follow the Scout Law.

I completely agree with not trying to save struggling units. When I was in Cubs, I convinced the DE to let a couple of neighboring floundering units fold and join our very healthy Pack. That was before COVID. There is no way those small units would have survived COVID. This move preserved the program for at least 20 kids, most of whom bridged to ScoutsBSA and have stuck with it there. 

It takes at least 5 involved adults to maintain even a very small unit successfully. If those 5 put their energy into an successful bigger unit, it would go a long way to making the program better for the other Scouters, but relieving the stress on the key Scouters in a big unit. Many hands makes smaller work. That helps to prevent burnout as well.  I think there are some Councils that think of units as sports teams, and the more teams they have, the better. That is exactly the wrong way to evaluate the success of the program.

Another example is trying to start a new unit in an economically-disadvantaged area. These are parents who are very unlikely to have the time or resournces needed to run a unit. Rather, they should be actively invited to join an existing strong unit. Maybe arrange to have the existing unit have some of their meetings "on the other side of town" to help recruit. Scouting is a big tent, and recruiting should reflect that.

On 5/5/2022 at 10:25 AM, malraux said:

The Scout handbook is at least intended to last several years. The way cub stuff has to be repurchased yearly is really off-putting. New book, necker, hat, belt and socks yearly just feels bad. 

Nothing to stop a Pack from making their own custom necker to last the whole program, just like most troops.  

For those who don't like this change, keep in mind that Cubs now starts in kindergarten. By the time the boys are in 5th grade, they are *done* with being a cub and ready to move up if the adults have been doing their part in keeping to the program (i.e., they start learning patrol method in 4th grade). 

This change will definitely benefit our troop. Every year there are one or two friends or non-cub younger siblings who have had to wait until their 11th birthday during the spring of 5th grade to join.

17 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

This is the great "tell" in how so many feel about the abuse.  If not you it would have been someone else or should I say so many feel that someone would be abused and better them than me?

This is not at all a "better them than me" statement, it is just a statement about the raw statistics of CSA in our society. We can't run from reality, but we can work to improve it.

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

My original question was:

How many ruined lives are acceptable to add good morale decision makers to this world?

Respectfully, you seem to be demanding a black and white answer to a question that only has shades of gray. It is absolutely horrible what happened to all the victims. But, there is no promise that they would have not been victims had they been engaged in some other activity, with greater or lesser frequency. Or maybe they would not have been victims, but someone else who wasn't abused in the program would have been abused in the absence of their participation in scouts. You are asking the unknowable.

I'd like to know what his photography merit badge counselor thought of him. 😁