Hueymungus

As a recently retired Cubmaster, I fought hard against feeder packs to Troops. Troops should earn the Scouts that crossover to them. Also, not every Troop is for every Scout. Just as there are 31 flavors at Baskin & Robbins, there are that many and more Troops. I didn't like the fact that everyone went to one Troop year after Year. There were several good Troops around us. So, I started bringing in other Troops to do things with the Pack. So for the 5 years before they all went to one Troop. Now, we are in four other Troops for a total of five.

 

FYI: I also grew the Pack from 25 Scouts to 64 by the time I left this year. It's all about the Program!

 

Several things will attract Scouts to a Troop.

Is the Program at the Troop good? Do the current Scouts like it? Is it the same year after year after year?

Car Camping vs Backpacking? Who really wants to schelp stuff to and fro from a Trailer for hours? Maybe getting out on the trail or waterway is faster and easier?

Merit Badge Mills....yuck....Who wants to sit and do course work at night. That's Homework. Boys don't want Home Work! Put the OUTING back into SCOUTING!

 

 

Also, the one thing that jumps out at me...how is the CC the SM? The COR can be the CC. That Troop needs to run through Troop Committee Challenge (and not the online version) and also host the ILST for the Scouts/PLC. If the PLC is doing the samething year after year...inject some other activities. Yes, the Adults will have to make suggestions and use Guided Discovery to help steer them. It's not Adult Led or influenced...but guided. And no that's not another word to hide Adult Led either.

Yes.. Adults get mad at eachother for pretty lame things. It's so weird. Main thing is, keep it fun and provide a good program. A Troop of 10-15 is just as good as a Troop of 120 if the program is good.

As a recently retired Cubmaster, I fought hard against feeder packs to Troops. Troops should earn the Scouts that crossover to them. Also, not every Troop is for every Scout. Just as there are 31 flavors at Baskin & Robbins, there are that many and more Troops. I didn't like the fact that everyone went to one Troop year after Year. There were several good Troops around us. So, I started bringing in other Troops to do things with the Pack. So for the 5 years before they all went to one Troop. Now, we are in four other Troops for a total of five.

FYI: I also grew the Pack from 25 Scouts to 64 by the time I left this year. It's all about the Program!

Several things will attract Scouts to a Troop.

Is the Program at the Troop good? Do the current Scouts like it? Is it the same year after year after year?

Car Camping vs Backpacking? Who really wants to schelp stuff to and fro from a Trailer for hours? Maybe getting out on the trail or waterway is faster and easier?

Merit Badge Mills....yuck....Who wants to sit and do course work at night. That's Homework. Boys don't want Home Work! Put the OUTING back into SCOUTING!

Also, the one thing that jumps out at me...how is the CC the SM? The COR can be the CC. That Troop needs to run through Troop Committee Challenge (and not the online version) and also host the ILST for the Scouts/PLC. If the PLC is doing the samething year after year...inject some other activities. Yes, the Adults will have to make suggestions and use Guided Discovery to help steer them. It's not Adult Led or influenced...but guided. And no that's not another word to hide Adult Led either.

$24 is the registration fee to be a member within the BSA. The Dues a Scout Unit charges can include that $24, but the rest is what is charged to provide that program to your particular unit. Whether the CO provides a meeting space or the Scout Unit pays for it, there are some fixed costs to run the unit. The Pack I just left due to Crossing over had to pay $800 a year for the gym at the school because the CO does not pay nor has a space.

The only thing that matters, in general, to the Council is that they collect $24 per person (outside of the Unit Reserve Scout 91U $10) plus $40 for Re-Charter Fee at Re-Charter time. If you don't you and your Scout Unit are not re-chartered.

Yeah, I gotta agree with that. Who cares when....

I can see it getting a little more important if the pack is active through the summer.... and by active I mean den meetings ad pack meetings continue the same all year..... then it may be a little more of something to concern yourself with.

Your Cubscouts are the rank that they are when you turn in the advancement sheets to Council saying...this Scout is now a Bear on this date. Done. So, during the summer that they are a BEAR, they get the BEAR Summertime Pack Award PIN.

 

A Tiger can earn the Tiger Pin if they sign-up as a Tiger before Summer. IE: Spring recruitment. That new Scout who just graduated Kindergarten can join Cubscouts.

Your Cubscouts are the rank that they are when you turn in the advancement sheets to Council saying...this Scout is now a Bear on this date. Done. So, during the summer that they are a BEAR, they get the BEAR Summertime Pack Award PIN.

 

A Tiger can earn the Tiger Pin if they sign-up as a Tiger before Summer. IE: Spring recruitment. That new Scout who just graduated Kindergarten can join Cubscouts.

So, yes it can.

Also, here is what my council has for their requirements for the Tour Plan. http://www.cpcbsa.org/leader-resources/tour-permits

It is different from what others have posted.

[h=2]When is a unit required to complete a Tour and Activity Plan?[/h] The following are requirements specifically for the Cascade Pacific Council. A Tour and Activity Plan should be submitted if your trip involves any of the following bullets. Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation.

· Trips of 50 miles one way and above

· Trips outside of council borders

· Trips to a council or district event

· Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, the Summit Bechtel reserve, or a regionally sponsored event

· When conducting any of the following activities: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.), Climbing and rappelling, orientation flights (process flying plan), Shooting sports

· Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)

· Any overnight experience

Our training regime includes all the usual: BALOO, OWLS, IOLS, all the online stuff. The trainers I work with make the following allowances: If you take the full SLST series (donuts and coffee in class room, & overnite weekend) AND some supplemental Cub sections, you have earned the BALOO, OWLS and SLST/IOLS all- in--one. BUT,,,, they DO recommend taking the BALOO seperately, like on the two seperate occasions offered in out home District, or one of the neighboring Districts, OR at University of Scouting, OR at the Cub Round-up, which is sort of a U of Cubs separate from the U of Scouting....

 

It is all about "The work is done by whoever shows up' and most folks know who is knowledgeable about what. I would not want some of our pros teaching the Scout series, as they have rarely been out in the LNTrenches, so to speak. One I have great respecrt for is a detail guy, good speaker, give you his shirt off his back, but I would be afraid he wouldn't know which end of the hatchet to hold.

 

 

You can't have too much edy-cashun, as my uncle used to say. You might never need what you were taught, but you can't predict when you WOULD need it.

Hueymungus, help me out here. Do you have special knowledge of how BSA insurance works for all the councils in the US? Or are you of the 'can't be too careful' persuasion?

 

I found this on the BSA website which suggests that my council is, in fact, following national guidelines. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx

 

Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan?

A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:

• Trips of 500 miles or more; or
  
• Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or
  
• Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or
  
• When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:
  
  • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
    
  • Climbing and rappelling
    
  • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
    
  • Shooting sports
    
  • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or
    
  • At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)
    

Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation.

Q. Is it common for a council to set up a rigorous review of the tour and activity plan or have our unit submit a plan anytime we meet other than at our weekly meeting place?

A. Your local council knows your local conditions, common tours, and activies best. We find that many councils set their policies based on those known risks. We suggest you contact your council if it choses to exceed the above policy on when and for what reasons a tour and activity plan should be filed for review.

 

Since my council doesn't exceed 500 miles in breadth in any direction, it seems that our unit outings are covered without submitting a Trip Plan as long as we are within the council boundaries, barring the exceptions listed. The second FAQ quoted indicates that this may vary by council.

In checking the online Trip Permit process through myscouting I found this link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/doc/GUIDE_TO_TOUR_PLANNING_PRINCIPLES.pdf It talks about having BALOO for overnighters amongst other things. All Trip Permits are now handled through National.

Overall, I am the cautious type. Better safe than sorry and on the 5 o'clock news. I would check with your council's health and safety person.

Thanks everyone! The boy, as stated is a Bear and cannot return to wolf (unless it's convenient to do such- such as earning his rank, but whatever)

Packbadges is great for Cubscouts. It has all the rank, beltloops and a few other items on there. It's nice to have when out hiking so you can make sure the requirements are what you remember them to be.

Scout Trail is for Boyscouts and it does a way better job in the Boy Scout program as it has everything there. Ok, except for the recently announced Merit Badges.

These are both iPhone based apps.

In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules.

 

As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year.

 

Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ?

 

A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include:

• Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine)
  
• Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event
  
• When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events:
  
  • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
    
  • Climbing and rappelling
    
  • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
    
  • Shooting sports
    
  • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)
    

  [*]At the council's request

Rule Broken.

I get the part where people/families can camp and go on outings that also include people who are involved with Scouting and that those outings are not under any BSA Rules. Meaning that you can drink beer and smoke in front of youth. Also, while no one is really looking you can forget the Scout Oath and Law...but what the BSA is teaching is that even while people are not looking or your not in a BSA setting, that the Scout Oath and Law still work and should be our guide. Once a Scout always a Scout.

So, while this Council has the BALOO/Trip Permit wording on the website and people have checked with the DE to say it's OK....I still go by "Be Prepared" Get the paperwork.

http://www.scouter.com/forum/open-discussion-program/1854-merit-badge-counseling-and-two-deep-leadership

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/quiz-q.pdf

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/quiz-a.pdf

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-125.pdf

True...but when Lawyers come in they will split hairs on rules. It's also called grooming. Both Scouts could be getting groomed for all the wrong reasons. Things happen when people are not watching. Having an adult there is a barrier.

I give you this latest account of YPT Violation even when everyone was around...on camping trips.

http://www.oregonlive.com/washingtoncounty/index.ssf/2013/08/former_eagle_scout_pleads_guil.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Main point is, everyone has to be aware. Both Youth and Adults. Penn State is horror story and where other Adults did know and did nothing.

The Summer Time Awards has no bearing on rank advancement. Whatever your Pack wants to base it on. just be consistant Since we haven't recruited in the Spring, most of our Scouts signed on in the fall, we award them at the previous rank going into the Summer

The last Pack Meeting is our full crossover for all Ranks and awarding of all Ranks. So, at the end of the Pack Meeting, I declare the Cubscout Year over and they are all now the next Rank. Then we dive right into Summertime Pack Award and Summercamp season.

So, if there are Kindergartners, the Council considers them 1st Graders after June 1st. Hence, they are 1st Graders and Tigers. If we can award their Bobcat since they worked on it and earned it, we award it then too. If we do not have Tigers, it is just Wolves, Bears, Webelos I and II.

In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules.

 

As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year.

 

Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ?

 

A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include:

• Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine)
  
• Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event
  
• When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events:
  
  • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
    
  • Climbing and rappelling
    
  • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
    
  • Shooting sports
    
  • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)
    

  [*]At the council's request

Camping with friends who are Scouts is just that. Camping with Friends.

But, if the Pack goes "Family Camping" because that's what they call it, then, that's breaking the rule.

I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now.

Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are....

 

Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons.

 

If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used.

 

BALOO is for Pack Camping.

OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them.

ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp.

 

OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs.

True...but when Lawyers come in they will split hairs on rules. It's also called grooming. Both Scouts could be getting groomed for all the wrong reasons. Things happen when people are not watching. Having an adult there is a barrier.

Nothing really. My point is men come to the Church meetings on weekends for fellow-ship. They are dating and working with no other real commitments. So, they have more free time. They are also great for Unit Commissioners to help as well. A lot of these men are a great asset to their Ward/Stake and can help.

Your Cubscouts are the rank that they are when you turn in the advancement sheets to Council saying...this Scout is now a Bear on this date. Done. So, during the summer that they are a BEAR, they get the BEAR Summertime Pack Award PIN.

 

A Tiger can earn the Tiger Pin if they sign-up as a Tiger before Summer. IE: Spring recruitment. That new Scout who just graduated Kindergarten can join Cubscouts.

Christina:

Coming late to this topic.

What's your position within the LDS Pack? I know the mother is a Committee Memeber of the LDS Pack.

You need to check with the DE for the Charter's on both Units. Since the LDS pays for all Charters, how is the Parents paying for the non-LDS Pack?

Once a rank is submitted to Council, the Scout is that Rank. So there really isn't any turning back in that area. Yes, the LDS has it's process. (Not debating that at all)

It's going to get weird quick when he gets to the 11 Year Old program. Since he is still within the Primary but can be in Boy Scouts. The 11 YO's basically kept seperate from the Troop in the LDS world. This is not the case within the non-LDS.

As for the Leadership part within the Primary, you might need to go to the Bishop and explain that these people are not living up to their Calling. My one suggestion is to see if there are Young Men who are Eagle's and not Married yet to see if they want to come help out in the Primary. Some of them just might love doing this. It's giving back to Scouts and their Ward.

I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now.

Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are....

Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons.

If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used.

BALOO is for Pack Camping.

OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them.

ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp.

OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs.

Why chance it. Use YPT and have two adults present/in-view with the Scouts.

Your Cubscouts are the rank that they are when you turn in the advancement sheets to Council saying...this Scout is now a Bear on this date. Done. So, during the summer that they are a BEAR, they get the BEAR Summertime Pack Award PIN.

A Tiger can earn the Tiger Pin if they sign-up as a Tiger before Summer. IE: Spring recruitment. That new Scout who just graduated Kindergarten can join Cubscouts.