WoundedFox

I have been to Ross as an adult leader of a Webelos Den, and I have hiked through all of the camps as part of Trail Camp. I will add a few more details.

1) PMI always seems to fill up before Ross, so SOMEONE clearly likes it better.

2) PMI puts you within potential walking distance of Swinging Bridge and Viewing Rock for Webelos. From Ross, you need a vehicle to drive the first part. I strongly recommend visiting both during your stay. We started at 5 AM for Viewing Rock and we almost caught the sunrise, but not quite. Unfortunately, it wasn't a "see the sun burn the fog off the lake" morning. Those are REALLY cool. Oh yeah, we were back in time for second breakfast at 9:30, but just barely.

3) Camp Ross is further up the lake than Camp PMI, so the waterfront is not as great. That's not a huge issue for a Webelos camp, which is probably part of the reason they use Ross for this.

4) Camp Ross is on the side of the lake away from the mountains, so you have rolling hills and GREAT views of the mountains on the other side of the lake.

5) Camp PMI is on the side of the lake with the mountains, so you don't have the same sweeping vista, and the camp has a distinct "UP" and "DOWN" orientation to it. Walking back from the waterfront is a hike.

If I had to do it again, I would pick PMI first, but at least 50% of that is because I have been to Ross before.

Oh, and BTW, Ross no longer has the issue with iron particulate in the water that they had in the mid-1980's. We used to call it "Camp Rust", and we would do anything we could to avoid drinking the water from their system.

5yearscouter: "If you believe that the pat downs make us any safer, then why not full strip searches or body cavity searches?"

The TSA has publicly stated that they have the authority under current law to subject every single airline passenger to a full strip search. I believe they would be doing it now if they thought they could get away with it.

Personally, I don't fly when I don't have to for my job. The "need" would have to meet a very high bar before I would put my wife or kids on a plane, and I certainly will not be responsible for taking scouts onto a plane these days. (Others from my unit have, and as long as parents are adequately informed, I don't have a huge problem with it. Parents and scouts need to make their own decisions on this.)

I have to agree with the folks who would encourage them to keep it within the bounds of the uniform specification.

The way I learned it, it went something like this.

A Scout is Obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

I totally agree that there are appropriate times and circumstances for civil disobedience. I don't see this as being one of them.

Very interesting... our camp was asking for 3 targets, 10 arrows each, one score at the closest range, one at the midrange, and one at the longest range. The required scores went up slightly for compound bows.

I guess it was a version of one of the progressions that was described. I didn't measure the targets or the distance, but it was a challenging (but achievable) progression.

Alabama Scouter: To you, what are the "Hard 3"?

My son is still an improving "non-swimmer" after his second year at Boy Scout camp. Swimming is going to be one of the hardest merit badges he ever earns, but he is determined to get there eventually. (He has been at it since "Aquanaut", which was the one Webelos Activity Pin that he couldn't earn.)

For me, Swimming was not so bad, but Archery and "Rifle and Shotgun Shooting" (remember when it was one badge?) were so hard that I never completed them despite earning 52 others. Good thing they were not Eagle Required. Some scouts could shoot all week without getting good enough at archery, but one scout just last week walked in to archery at Camp Ockanickon and completed all of his required targets in a row with high scores and no misses. He did the rest of the requirements, but the staff didn't have a whole lot to teach him about archery.

Some scouts are naturally better at some things than others. As someone said, many come into the badges with past experience or learning. Some even READ the MB books before they show up!

As with many things, what the scouts get out of a merit badge directly corresponds to what the scout AND the merit badge counselor put into it. We discourage our scouts from taking merit badges at camp that where we can offer better programs at the troop level, but we don't prevent them from taking them there. Within the letter of the requirements, a lot of it is up to the scout. When the scouts are not learning *at least* the letter of the requirement, then we take it up with the camp.

To all of the Merit Badge Counselors out there, remember that the requirements define what you may (and must) REQUIRE of the scout. They do not limit what you can TEACH the scout.

shortridge, you misquoted me slightly, so please let me explain. I was not asking that councils be required to register AHG leaders in courses. I was asking whether there was any direction from national regarding registration for courses. As with most large organizations, if something is a good idea, it is often required and if something has a possibility of misuse, it gets banned. (See the Paddlecraft Safety Course, and homebuilt alcohol stoves, for instances of this.)

Some people here clearly don't like it, but there are *many* BSA units that incorporate a specific faith into their programs. It is allowed, and even encouraged by national policy, and it has lots of advantages. For instance, I find that the character building lessons "stick" much better when they are taught in the context of specific faith lessons that reinforce (and are reinforced by) the lessons that the scouts are learning at home and at church. We can also sing the songs that we choose and pray in the manner we prefer without worrying about offending anyone. We have polled our member families, and *most* of our youth would not be involved in scouting if it were not for a program like ours.

Our BSA Troop and Pack have benefited directly from our CO's AHG troop. We all meet on the same night, and because AHG troops are relatively rare those families that seek out the AHG troop often bring the rest of the family along for our BSA programs. This is a good fit for us, because all of our units incorporate Protestant Christian teaching into their programs, and our families want this kind of program for all of their children.

So back to my original question, I have found out a few things that might interest others.

1) Our council welcomes all parents of BSA youth to most training. This covers most of our leaders who might want to take IOLS, for instance. (Or Trainer's EDGE, another great course.)

2) The AHG National office will help you connect with your local BSA Council, if you are not sure how to go about it.

3) The level of cooperation happening seems to vary widely based on location. As others here have pointed out, AHG is big in certain areas, and non-existent in others.

My perspective is that AHG has a lot to learn from the BSA. For example, if you think that the BSA paperwork/rechartering process is bad, you have never seen the AHG equivalent. And Tour Permits/Plans? AHG goes way overboard by requiring National office "high adventure" approval for all canoe trips, for example.

I also feel that the BSA has a lot to gain from the exchange. Many AHG chartering organizations don't sponsor BSA units right now, but once they understand that faith specific units are welcome in the BSA, I believe more will. I find faith specific units (of all faiths) to be a positive aspect of the religious diversity within the BSA.

Finally, anyone who thinks that Wood Badge training is so specific to the BSA that it can't be easily transferred to other areas of your life took a very different course than the one I just attended. Sure, we could cross register AHG leaders on our committee, or in our crew, just to get them "in", but if they were registered in the course as AHG leaders, they could work their tickets within their AHG Troop.

BTW, I have just heard that AHG is working on an advanced training course modeled after Wood Badge. That's a great option for leaders in or near Ohio (AHG National & center of population).

I agree that the Memorandum of Understanding does not, by itself, create the opportunity for AHG leaders to take BSA training courses, but clearly such things are being done in parts of the country. I guess I am interested in knowing how much national level BSA support there is for this, and how this got set up in individual councils.

Another user stated earlier this year: "The memorandum of understanding allows AHG to utilize BSA training courses and BSA facilities the same that any BSA unit can." I am interested in more details on this.

I am a BSA leader in a large BSA council that has only a few AHG troops. Our Chartering Organization runs a Pack, Troop, Crew, and an AHG Troop. I have asked our district training chairman, and our district wood badge coordinator about whether we can register our AHG leaders for training courses, and the answer so far is that no one knows. (Note, they have not been opposed to the idea, they are just not sure whether it is supposed to be allowed. In particular, the Wood Badge forms state clearly that you must be a registered member of the BSA.)

From what I have read here, some other councils sell AHG materials from their scout stores, organize AHG weeks at camp, etc. That's great for them, but that appears to be due to decisions made at the council level. Is anyone aware of any national direction that I can bring to the attention of my local council to help them decide that they are allowed (or encouraged, or even required) to allow AHG leaders to register for various courses, preferably up to and including Wood Badge?