SoDakScouter

This was one of the best movies I have seen. Very solemn. I did see the Boy Scouts at the end of the movie. Very appropriate. Recommend this as a good family movie.

A lot of the Pine Beetle infections is on the National Forest side of the fence. Since the camp is privately owned, we are able to surgically remove the infected trees.

I understand your disappointment with the changes. I grew up here and moved a way for a few years. When I came back, the changes to Mt. Rushmore were massive. I preferred the rustic look and the use of the stone from the mountain. I agreed that new parking was needed. As time goes on, I get used to the change. Last time I was up there was the Pilgrimage last year. There are not the vendors up there, and they got rid of the people dressing up as the Presidents. Now they have native displays, the superintendit is Native and he is bringing the Native culture to the Memorial. That has caused a great uproar here, among Natives and non-natives.

That being said, the changes are not the reason to come or stay away. This is a major Black Hills Area Council event, hiking through the Black Hills, having a ceremony under the faces of four great presidents, the parade of flags by the Boy Scouts will be impressive.

Come and see or watch for the news, because it will be big!

The Rushmore Pilgrimage has been a tradition since 1938. At the first hike, there were only the images of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln on the mountain. The final carving, Teddy Roosevelt, was still under construction. In past years we have had as many as 1,000 participants from Troops throughout South Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska, North Dakota, Minnesota, Montana and Iowa, just to name a few.

2008 marks the 70th anniversary of the Mount Rushmore Pilgrimage! This year we are planning a special group campsite at Crazy Horse Memorial so it will be more like a jamboree, as well as, a historic hike. Our master of ceremonies will be Lieutenant Colonel Reid A. Christopherson, Executive Officer, 114th Fighter Wing, South Dakota Air National Guard.

For the leaders' guide and registration information, go to www.blackhillsareacouncil.com

Come and join us. Scouts will be allowed to hike to the top of Crazy Horse!

For questions, please contact me at kevinyjc@rushmore.com

Kevin Lewis

Pilgrimage Committee

Publicity Chair

The Website for Black Hills Area Council has a video of the Summer Camp. Shows quite a bit of what to expect. Check it out and hopefully, it will help with your decision.

We have two slots for openings at Sea Base - Bahama's Avdenture. The Camp is June 15 - June 21, 2007. We are coming from Western South Dakota, so travel expenses are greater for us. If you live closer to a major air port, you can get cheap flights to Ft. Lauderdale. Then fly into Marsh Harbour, Bahamas. Must be able to pass the swim test, and a physical by your doctor. Currently have 2 adults and 6 boys going. The two open slots can be an adult and boy. Please contact me for costs details.

We are sending a Crew in June 07. Coming from our town, we need to drive to Denver to get any chance at discount airlines. It is a 6-7 hour drive for us. So Discount airlines work if you are close to major markets. Also, for us, we still have openings, so hard to book a plane ticket for "John Doe" these days. We are using a local travel agency.

Beavah: To answer one question "Why were Webelos going to a Boy Scout Klondike?" They are encouraged to go up with Boy Scout Troops for Klondike and Pilgrimage by our Council. That is one troubling thing here, they expect and want younger kids, but don't seem to take into account their ages and experiences. We just get responses that "we are Boys Scouts, so do it".

I don't think we need a temparture control rule, but probably common sense back into district and council executives. The response we had gotten was more of "we planned it, so we won't cancel it." By the way, the District Executive and Council Executive didn't spend the night up there. They stayed home in their warm beds. At least one of them went up during the day. Being critized for not going by somebody that stayed home instead of camping is a bit hypocritical.

We knew that we would not get back the registration fees, we have written off the $10.00 per boy.

Two of the older boys that were going to go I have been their leader since Tigers. One is my oldest son and the other is the Senior Patrol Leader. They have been through some pretty extreme camping, thunderstorms, forest fires, tornados, Jamboree 2005, blizzards, zero degree camping, etc. Those two would do just fine, the other two are tough kids with good heads on their shoulders. They would have done fine. We just decided that as adults, we did not want to put the boys at risk that we thought was avoidable.

I do appreciate your comments and insights.

I appreciate everyone's post. The discussion is going the way I anticipated.

Some additional points:

1. Winter has not really made an appearance here for about 7 years. So the snow and the cold have not been around for us to get used to the conditions. It could be the natural weather cycle for this area or global warming, but we should discuss that in another forum.

2. The Cavalier attitude of the District and Council Executives is probably the most troubling. They are almost critizing us for making the decision not to go. We knew that we would loose the registration fee, just past experiences. If they had just said it was "Council policy not to refund registration for events that were held." Instead, it is "we are not refunding because there was actual snow, you should be teaching the boys winter survival skills and it is just what Boy Scouts do." This has what has upset us more than anything. And council would not cancel anything because then they would have to refund money. At times, it seems they are more concerned about getting money than about the activity or the safety of the boys. Of course, I don't think they would refund money even in the event of serious injury or death.

3. The idea of splitting the group and sending the older boys up to camp and bring the younger ones up during the day was thought of, admittedly, not very throughly. There was another message here to contend with, that was the weather warnings/advisories. At this stage in life, the boys get many mixed messages. So my concern was if we went, would we be saying that it is okay to use these warnings to prepare for the weather and go anyway? Of course, the boys being boys and hearing only what they want to hear, could hear the "It's okay to ignore warnings!" So this message issue was there for me. Scoutmaster was had serious concerns about weather conditions. Earlier this year, at a Cub Scout Fall Fun Day, the adult leader that was putting on the Fall Fun Day had his son, who had recently crossed over to Boy Scouts helping out. One activity was making simple sail boats and floating them down the creek. This boy was in the creek, getting the boats that got hung up. Of course, have boys and water together, somebody is getting wet. I would not let my Webelos in the water and they couldn't understand that. Why could one and not the other. I brought this to the attention of the Distric Executive and the response was "His dad was there and said it was okay". This Council likes to send mixed messages.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject.

This last weekend, February 2-4, was the Council's Klondike. It is winter camping at the Boy Scout Camp. We signed up 6 boys and 4 Webelos for the camp. Everybody was excited to go. Being a good adult leader, I kept an eye on the weather forecasts, to attempt to keep the boys and parents informed as to the equipment necessary. We are in the 7th year of a drought, so we don't have lots of snow. Evidently there was snow at the camp. The forecast kept getting colder. Finally, the 3 days before the camp, the temperatures were minus zero, weather advisories and projections for colder temperatures for the weekend and wind. Wednesday night, I was looking at the predictions for the weekend. There is of course not a weather station at the camp, so we had to go by the predictions of near by towns. The fulltime ranger at the camp does self report to one of the tv stations and the numbers were below zero and around 8 degrees during the day. The camp is about 7 miles west off the main road, up in the mountains. It sits in a valley, and the wind does blow through there pretty often. The predictions for the nearest town was -12 at night at 2 above zero during the day. Wind was predicted to be around 20 mph with gusts to 35 mph. This gives a constant wind chill of below zero. National Weather Service had issued warnings and advisories not to be out in the weather unless it was absolutly necessary. We had 4 older boys going (13-16 years old) and they are experienced campers and we knew they could do the camping, but the two younger ones and the 4 Webelos we had high concerns about it. Based upon all this information, the Scoutmaster and I (Troop Committe Chairman) decided that we were not going to subject the boys or adults going along to these temperatures. None of our parents objected, in fact, we were commended for our decision. We talked to the boys and the older boys thought that it might be to cold to go. So there is not a problem with the parents, the problem is with the local council.

My self, and a number of other leaders from other Troops had contacted the Council about the concerns with the weather and if Klondike was going to be cancelled or rescheduled. I had notified the Council that we were pulling out. Now comes the fun part. We paid $10.00 per boy for the Klondike. Council's expenditures are for the patches on this one. They have to keep the Staff Training Center heated because of the water pipes anyway, so that would be a fixed cost, along with the Camp Ranger. Council's unofficial response is "no refunds", however their reasoning is that this is winter camping, there is snow for the first time in years, that we are to prepare these boys for camping in this weather and we are Boy Scouts so deal with it. This reasoning did not sit well with me and other Adults in our Troop. One Dad is particularily upset. Not over the $10.00, but about the prinicipal of exposing the boys to dangerous weather and being cavalier about it. One parent is pulling FOS support because of it.

It turns out that the low was -8 and the high got into the teens, around 19, but the wind was a factor. Kids were able to go into the Staff Center to warm up. 3 troops camped, two in tents and one in a lodge. Several came up during the day on Saturday and left afterwards. We could have gone up during the day too, but again, I was thinking that it was just too cold and dangerous to expose the kids to those temperatures.

A lot of people are not going to speak against Council, because nobody wants to rock the boat. Also, many people get caught up in the inside of Scouting and don't always see things from the outside looking in. Many people know I am involved in Scouting, so they also knew generally about the camping plans. Many of them were shocked that the Council was pushing forward with the camping and thought that we made the right decision not to go. Some of these "outsiders" are full time National Guard and couldn't believe that we would expose boys to that extreme temperatures.

So the point of this whole posting is to get feed back as to what would be too low of temperature and conditions for Winter Camping.

The 4th of July is a celebration of the signing of the Declaration of Independance, which is widely considered to be the birth of our nation. We should take time to remember and to pass on to our youth, that the birth was not easy. The "radicals" of the day, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Hancock, Adams, Washington and many others, proposed the starting of a new nation, independant of England and Europe. It was a long struggle to get to 1789, when our present form of government was created. Of course it has changed in over time, to be, in theory, more representative of the people. We have fought wars, among ourselves and we have managed to come back to the basic of remembering we are all Americans.

We should also remember, that this "freedom" was paid by our forefathers, in blood, sweat and tears. Some died, some were wounded, some stayed and built a home, a farm, a ranch, a factory, etc. and some never came home. These were all Americans, White, Black, Hispanic, Indian, Asian, recent immigrants, believers in God, Aethists, gays and straights. We may not have trusted them to do certain jobs, but we didn't ask them to not pay because they were different than us. We continue to pay today.

We need to remember that the youth today will be our leaders tomorrow. You can be scared or you can accept the challenge of helping the youth learn to lead. In Boy Scouts & Cub Scouts, we attempt to show them, teach them and allow them to learn to lead. Being the leader does not make you right, but the one that makes a decision based upon all the facts available to you at that time. It is easy to lead the past with 20/20 hindsight.

Amongst the celebrations coming this weekend and on the 4th, take a moment to thank the past and to praise the future.

We use Mt. Rushmore for the Annual Pilgrimage. I was thinking it was more of box now, I missed the rides and games. Silly me, I was focusing on the 4 Presidents on the mountain!

In the good old days, only 40,000 came to Sturgis. Now there are 400,000 - 500,000 people that come through.

With the caves, Badlands, Crazy Horse, Mount Rushmore, Devil's Tower, Bear Butte, Mickelson Trail, we could plan plenty of activities for Scouts.

My oldest son attended the Jambo in 2005. It was one of the best experiences he has had. He did get heat sickness that took him out of action for a day, but he also learned from it. He thought it was great that the Army & Navy had activities there and he was able to Scuba and Snorkeling, which is not something readily available around here.

It is a sad day when the Government is prohibited from doing something that helps promote positive behavior and good citizenship in our youth. The good thing is that this is the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals and not the 9th. (However, an adverse ruling from the 9th stands a better chance of getting over-ruled at the Supreme Court). Should the Courts continue to rule against the Boy Scouts, I am sure there are plenty of communities throughout the United States that would welcome 40,000+ visitors. In fact, I am sure that my community/area would welcome them. I am sure that we could put it together here in the Black Hills of South Dakota. While we don't have some of the attractions of Ft. A.P. Hill area, we have places for Scouts to visit.

While and adverse ruling would be an unforunate end to an era, it is not the end of National Jamobree. There are alternatives available.

Starwolfmom, congratulations!

The important thing is to make sure things are organized and the kids have fun. Also, do not do it yourself, delgate. The Cubmaster is also a cheerleader, so recruit people to help. They will form your committee. The way we have done things when parents are not volunteering, we have said that if somebody does not volunteer, we won't do it. Some times the threat of the kids not being able to do something, gets parents to volunteer. Also, don't burn out your volunteers, have co-chairs, helpers, etc. Maybe challenge a den to take the lead on the an activity, that way the work is spread around a group of parents.

You will always get volunteers for Pinewood Derby and other fun stuff.

Good luck!

A 35 yr old lawyer has a heart attack and dies and goes to heaven. At the Pearly Gates of Heaven he tells St. Peter that there must be some mistake, he is too young to die, he is only 35.

St. Peter replies "Really, according to your Billible Hours, your 85!"

SoDakScouter, JD '88

FG:

Sorry it has taken time to get back to you on your provision that you quoted.

Congress has limited Federal Habeas Corpus Proceedings, especially in Capital Cases. Congress can direct the process of where claims or proceedings start. Because of Marbury v. Madison Congress has been limited in what it can do, but they are able to do somethings.

fgoodwin, when I read your first post quoting the Constitution, I thought there was something about it that didn't look right. You quoted a portion of the last sentence of Section 2, paragraph 2. This subsection and the sentence you have quoted applies to paragraph 1 of Section 2.

In paragraph 1, the Supreme Court is not the original or trial court, it is the appellate or reviewing Court. In paragraph 2, the Supreme Court is the original or trial court. Not many of those cases these days, because the Supreme Court can delegate a lower court to hold hearings on it.

LisaBob, Congress and the States have limited the Supreme Court's Authority, i.e. the 11th Amendment. "The Judicial power of the United States shall not be contstrued to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State." This was most recently cited by the Supreme Court in the Seminole Tribe v. Florida, a gaming compact case. The Court has no authority to enter an order that a State enter into a Gaming Compact under the Indian Gaming Act with a tribe. This and the 10th amendment are States' Rights Amendments.

Interesting discussion, start out with Flag Burning/Flag Retirement discussion, move over to a discussion about God, then back to Flags and Pledges.

While reading the discussion on God, I was wondering if there was a political cartoon in there that would offend anybody. Then we could see some flag burning and other distrubing behavior.

If all you do at Troop Meetings are Merit Badges, then there is a problem.

A for instance for my son's troop: Each August, we devote each meeting to canoing. We take the troop's canoes and going canoing each time when we are supposed to be having a meeting. The older boys show the younger boys how to properly handle a canoe, swamping, rescue, paddling, loading, getting in and out. At the end, the new boys have earned their merit badge. The older boys are canoing and getting to teach the younger ones, learning some important leadership skills in a potentially dangerouse enviroment. Of course, the Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters and myself are there in case there is a need. We also do this on a City Park Lake, that is only 10 feet deep at the deepest.

Beginning in September every year, we plan out the year and the boys decide if there is a merit badge or two they would like to work on as a troop.

We have "discovered" something that has turned out real well. We invite in Webelos Dens and help them earn one of their merit badges like Readyman. All the boys, younger and older, become teachers, putting to work their learning & experiences. I took my youngest son's Bear Den to work on knots with the Boy Scouts. All of the kids, parents and leaders had a blast.

So I think a merit badge or two done during the year at troop meetings is okay.

Lisabob,

I agree with what you are saying. But I have heard about the people that don't want to offend that part of the world that the attackers came from. That is th wrong reason. The reasons that you listed are reasonable and defendable. Unfortunately, when you have policy makers at the media outlets making decisions not to publish political cartoons because it will offend a specific religious group, it makes me wonder their decisions on other things.

I am the one that said they weren't showing the Twin Towers falling on TV because it offended or anger people.

There was a song, "Do you remember" that was popular and there was a line about not showing the Towers falling on TV anymore. About that same time, I saw a piece on the news that it was decided that showing the Twin Towers falling caused a lot of anger and bad feelings toward Muslims in general, and those that were responsible for the attack. Some people can't tell the difference between the two. I had read some more stuff in the local paper and stuff on the internet. I can't cite you to those articles, because they made me mad enough, that I "shut down" and didn't bother to save or mark those stories.

I know after Pear Harbor, many loyal Americans of Japense hertigage were rounded up and put in camps. I suppose there is always a fear that that type of thing will happend again, because the actions were declared not to be illegal by the Courts at that time.

This January 28, 2006, they showed the Challenger blowing up. On September 11, 2005, I scanned the different news and I didn't see pictures of the Twin Towers falling. Granted, I can't scan all the channels and I could have missed something, but I know ABC, CBS & NBC didn't show it on the broadcast that were broadcast here in town.

Every December 7th that I can remember, they have always showed pictures of the that attack. They have even shown pictures of the different Nazi Concentration Camps on the anniversary of the liberation of that camp. They even show footage of the June 6, 1944, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guadacannel, Lenigrad, Stalingrad, Hiroshima, Nagaski, Bataan, Corridgor, etc.

Ironic thing now is the "Peaceful Muslims" burning embassies, "friendly" countries withdrawing dipolmatic missions from Europe because of some political cartoons. American Media has said they won't publish these cartoons, because they insult a religion. Of course, it is still okay to insult Chritianity, Judism & Buddism.

Now how does this ditrabe that I have gone on about pertain to Scouting? Simple, the people that have no problems attacking Scouting don't want to offend Islamic leaders, countries and people. But it is okay to tell a 13 year old that the organization that he likes and enjoys and is learning important leadership skills, is a "bad" organization because it requires you to profess a belief in God. That is what really burns me.

Well, that is my two cents worth.

My oldest son attended Jamboree this summer. It was one of the greatest experiences for him. Being 13, he got to see things and places that will stick out forever. He really enjoyed the activities with the Army.

I admit, I was a little scared, thinking that the Jamboree would be a good target for terrorists. But I also figured that they couldn't be much safer than on a Military Base, surrounded by the Army!

That being said, I think any of the Military Academies would be a great place, full of history, and places that ooze with tradition.

My youngest wants to go to the next one in 2010. I hope it stays on a military base.

You must remember, these people that attack Boy Scouts, are the same gutless wonders that believe that we shouldn't show pictures of the Twin Towers coming down, because it would anger people and upset those that did the deed or support it.

I am another Cowboy fan that is going with the Seahawks. My reason is that the Steelers have been talking some trash, so I think the Seahawks will put them in their place. Seahawks by 21.

Must be 7 years now, when my oldest was a Tiger, our Pack's Blue & Gold was a pot luck. I started late, kids were running around and parents were wondering what we were doing. The Cub Master tried to give a speech on Cub Scout and the foundings, but it was lost because of an angry mob. Cubmaster was at the end of his time and was burned out and needed others to step up. I for some reason was drafted and I have been involved ever since.

The next year, we moved it to another location, and only had the AOL Ceremony. Big sucess, the kids got to see the ceremony and gave them something to strive for. We would do Rank Awards as they came along. But was really fun to have them at the Cross over pinicn in May.

Then we started pushing to awarding all ranks at B&G, to give parents and kids a deadline. Has worked very well for us. We don't cross over the Webelos that earn the AOL until March or April, depending upon the Troops they are going to join. That way, they get to walk around as the top dogs of Cub Scouting for a month or so.

So basically, like everybody else has said, what ever works for them.

If you are in an area where another Council is close by, go for it. Just get your Tour Permit!

I don't know how other councils do it, but our council has Resident Camp for Webelos and Cub Scouts the week before the Scout Ranch opens up for Boy Scouts. So timing could be a constraint.