smaster101

I voted for cooking, but if I had another choice it would be wilderness survival. This has always been a popular badge with our boys, and with a knowledgeable counselor they can they can learn a lot of important skills.

We have a person in our town that approached our committee chair about donating 20 acres of land to our troop. The value could easily be $20-30K. I'm telling our committee that it's not that easy, and that we'd have to set up the troop as some type of non-profit corporation in order to own this type of asset. Our CO won't be much help because they're just a small group of American Legion Vets. I really think we need to consult a lawyer about this. There may also be council restrictions about troops having these types of assets.

Anyone have any experience or advice in this area that they can share?

This may be a simplistic answer, but I've seen some kids like him that responded well to an adult friend or mentor. If it can't be you the SM, maybe there is a committee member or ASM or even a JASM that can befriend this scout and help him learn to behave. He might just be reaching out for someone who understands him.

Anyway, I believe he should agree to follow the rules or be told he can't go on the trip. That's life, and people with bad attitudes should learn the reprocussions of their actions while their still young enough to turn themselves around.

Thanks to all for the many good responses. A couple of thoughts:

The week following the camporee we had our monthly PLC meeting and the SPL brought up to the PL's and Jr leaders present the issue of scouts not attending services during scouting events. I was proud of this scout taking a position on this with his peers.

Second, Bob White's comments reminded me that we used to always end each campout with a nightly prayer, but have gotten away from it after last year's summer camp incident. I think it's time we got back to this, and make it clear that that every scout is expected to participate.

A few weeks ago I posted a message called "Are Church Services Optional The gist of it was that I wanted to know how to handle a situation that happened last year at camp where a parent told me his son didn't have to attend a non-denominational religious service. I got some good advice from this group on respecting parent's wishes. Weve announced a policy for this year at camp where a scout needs parental approval to not attend services.

But now, a similar situation presented itself last weekend with a more disturbing twist. We were at a large camporee with 4000 other scouts & scouters. Protestant, Jewish and Catholic services were being held as part of the camporee schedule. Two brothers in my unit told me they would not go to any service because they did not observe any of these religions. Their dad was present so I respected their choice. But then another scout said he would not go either. I knew this boy's family were practicing Baptists. He had no legitimate reason for not wanting to go, and I assume he wanted to just hang with his other two buddies. I told him he needed to attend and that I was sure his mother would support me in that. He agreed reluctantly. Then two other scouts came up to me and said they didnt want to go either because their families just didnt attend church. I know one of them even goes to a Catholic school, but he said they dont go to church.

So, Im faced with 2 situations: one based on ideology, which I can respect, and the other based on something else (laziness?, lack of importance?, upbringing?) which I have a problem with.

I feel that attending some sort of religious service at scout events is just as much a part of scouting as saying the Pledge of Allegiance during an opening ceremony. In private life a person (even a scout) can choose not to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but most scout leaders would have a serious problem with a scout that refused to participate in it at the opening of a scout meeting or court of honor. Remember duty to God and Country is what our organization is all about.

So Ill ask this group again to help me sort this out. When religious services are offered in a scouting situation, should scouts be permitted to not participate without a legitimate reason?

Thanks to all for your suggestions. A couple of responses from me:

"Control" was a badly chosen word on my part. As a father of a ADD 23 yr old son I know how control always backfired on me.

SagerScout's suggestions are very helpful. This boy must want to be a good scout because his attendance is good at campouts and meetings. I can work on this with him.

I agree that parents can be more of a problem. I have more patience for other kids than I did with my own son - I think we expect our own to be perfect. Sometimes when this dad is around I see him getting frustrated with his son, and I tell him to let me or the jr. leaders deal with the situation.

Our local district sponsored a Webelos Woods camporee last fall, and our troop had a great camping experience with our local 2nd year Webelos. Many have now joined the troop and are working on Tenderfoot. They've asked me why the camporee doesn't count for their Tenderfoot camping requirement, since they did it with the troop. I believe that it doesn't meet the TF requirement, but I want to know how others have explained this. The way the TF requirement reads it just says to spend one night on a troop or patrol campout, it doesn't say when. Unlike 2nd class, which says "since joining..."

Any advice on how to cope with a scout with severe ADHD? I have one in my troop right now. He's not a bad kid, very bright but also very disruptive to the other scouts. He disrupts MB classes and can't sit still or pay attention during any activity. His patrol mates don't like to share a tent with him because he never settles down. He acts very immature relative to his 12 year old classmates. Fortunately he's not aggressive, at least for now.

His parents are aware of the problem and his mom gives me his medication to give him on each trip, problem is it wears off by evening, and then he's tough to handle.

I don't want to prevent him from being part of our unit, but I don't really know how to control him. His dad comes when he can, but the guy works nights and many weekends, so he can't be there often.

I have empathy for the kid because my own son is an ADD adult. But he made Eagle and I think this other boy can too. Suggestions?

Over the years I've had several boys like this. Actually I have one right now. They're mostly great kids, but are typically allowed to behave like this at home, so they don't know the difference once they get into the outside world. Sometimes it's just a sign of an 11 year old's immaturity. You can usually spot this type of boy when they first join the troop, which is a good time to start enforcing the right behavior. When I hear swearing coming from a new boy, I immediately tell him that it's not acceptable for a scout to talk like that. I usually have to remind him of this repeatedly, but by the time he's in a leadership position he at least knows how to control himself during scouting functions.

I agree with some of the others, it looks like your son's scoutmaster and the other leaders need some training. Another resource might be their unit commissioner. This individual's job is to assist troops that might be off track, and it sounds like this troop qualifies for that.

I can never understand why adult scouters come up with rules to restrict advancement of scouts. This discussion of camping MB is a perfect example. As long as a boy completes the requirements why should it matter when the blue card was signed? As leaders we should be doing whatever we need to do to encourage scouts to participate in the program, and reward them when they do. How frustrating for a boy to feel he's done all the requirements only to be told he had to start after a card was signed. No wonder so many boys quit before they make Eagle.

In our troop we keep track of the number of nights each scout camps out, and as Scoutmaster, I make sure that there is enough variety of activity on each campout to eventually cover the camping MB requirements. Then, after a scouts been active for about 3 years he is usually experienced enough and has attended enough campouts to qualify for completion of the badge. There are additional requirements that they have to finish up, but in reality the scout starts working on the badge from his first campout.

I'm wondering about all the comments regardign camps that cost $150/week. Our local scout camp is $212 this year. Now, relative to other non-scout camps this is cheap, but are most scout camps less than this?

Also, when I meet with our 5th grade Webelso to promote camp, I find that older scouts are the best salesman, and their comments about all the fun they have does more to convince parents than anything I can say. I try to focus on the organization and safety during the week, and let the experienced scouts tell them about the fun stuff. Last year we had 40 scouts from our troop attend camp and 18 of them were 1st time campers. Of that 18, 17 will be back this year.

You might consider appointing PL's rather than having an election, or at least appointing SPL's and ASPL. The reason is that it will give you an opportunity to select the "born leader" types rather than the most popular kids that tend to get elected. I know that elections are the prefered method, but in a new troop you would gain more by having your best scouts in leadership roles, setting the example that the next generation of leaders can follow.

Dear jmcquillan: Well put. I'm going to reflect on your comments and use them as I continue discussion with these parents. Thanks for your input.

To SCTMOM: thanks for your comments. I'm Catholic, but according to people I've talked to, the Protestant services at our camp are very nondenominational and exactly what you suggest they should be - an upbeat service targeted at young boys. Maybe thats why this particular scout told his father the service was not that bad.

Ive been a scoutmaster for about 12 years, and have never encountered a situation like this one before. Last year at summer camp it was Sunday morning and we were getting our scouts ready to attend church services. Earlier in the week I had told them that every scout was expected to attend the religious service of their choice; Jewish services had been held Saturday night and Catholic and Protestant services were held on Sunday morning. This is a camp tradition that has never been challenged before in our troop.

A father of one of our first year scouts came up to me and told me that his son would not be attending any services, because their family did not believe in any organized religion. This took me by surprise and unfortunately my response was not well thought out. First, I told the father that it was required of all scouts and that it was not optional for his son not to go. He still protested, and I then told him that every scout swore duty to God as part of the Scout Oath, and that it was required to believe in God in some way to remain a scout. I explained that the scouts were exposed to some religion at camp in terms of a blessing before each meal. Our troop also has a tradition of saying an evening prayer around the campfire. Its usually led by one of the older scouts, and they actually look forward to it each night. This father had been present for a couple of these campfire prayers and had not voiced any objection. The dad said his family were not atheists, just anti-religion. To further complicate things, the dad told me that two of his sons friends felt the same way and would not be going either.

At this point I was fuming. I told the dad that what he chose to do with his son was up to him, but that the other two scouts would be going to church regardless. At that I left them alone to decide for themselves what to do. I felt rather bad getting involved in a personal family preference, but as scoutmaster I felt that I had to set the requirement for all the scouts in my troop. If I made it optional for one or two not to attend Im sure that many or most would bag out of going.

I later discussed the situation with the Camp's Protestant Chaplain, who agreed that it was correct to make it a requirement for scouts to attend a service of their choice, and suggested that I have our troop committee discuss this with the fathers of the boys involved.

The situation turned out very strange. The scout whose dad I confronted went to the Protestant services and later told his dad that it was rather enjoyable. One of the other scouts dad showed up and walked off with his son just as everyone was leaving for services. I learned later they sat quietly by the pond and meditated, which may be a euphonium for fishing.

Let me tell you what I did for summer camp this year. In the annual pre-camp letter I send home to parents, I told them that attending religious services was expected of all scouts, and that if any parent has an objection to this they need to discuss it with me before camp.

My question for this forum is, do I have the right to insist that the scouts attend religious service when a parent says his son doesnt have to? Do you folks think the approach I took for this year is correct? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.