silver-shark

You guys are right on the money except for the name of the 3 volume set of themes. It is Troop Program Features.

The Troop Program Resources book is a companion that includes SM Minutes, Games for Pre-opening or Interpatrol Competitions, and other valuable resources.

Be sure to get all 4 books.

The TPF books also go into great detail about how to set up your Annual Planning Meeting

In the past we have continued our practice of meetings on Sunday afternoon unless there is a holiday or something, even in the summer.

We are looking into changing the day of our meeting this summer so that families can have the entire weekend for trips, boating, or whatever. During the summer, sports and other activities don't interfere hardly at all, which I'm sure had something to do with the Sunday meeting day to begin with.

Yeah, omlettes in a ziplock bag are great too. Make sure yuo use the freezer ones. they are tougher and less likely to melt. Just smoosh up a couple of eggs in it and add your fixins, then drop it into boiling water. leave a little air in so it'll float or it can burn/melt onto the bottom of the pan.

Also, wrap potatoes in aluminum foil and put them on some hot coals for about a half hour and you have a baked potatoe.

Slice that potatoe into 1/4" slices and alternate in onion slices and it's ebven better.

Wrap corn on the cob up in foil. I always add a little butter first to let it steam into the corn. This only takes 10 to 15 minutes. Don't forget to turn it often or it will burn. The slightly burnt parts are extra sweet and delicious though.

If you're going to have canned veggies that need to be heated, just set the OPENED can right on some coals or slightly above. Make sure you have an oven mit to remove it, or place 2 small holes near the top with a pointed can opener, AFTER YOU'VE OPENED THE CAN, and you can use a stick to remove it.

I Agree.

Hey Folks,

Here's what the BSA actually has to say in their "Leave No Trace" pamphlet. You can geta copy at your Council Office or Scout Store, or online at www.scouting.org.

"3. Dispose of Waste Properly

(Pack It In, Pack It Out)

This simple yet effective saying motivates backcountry visitors to take their trash home with them. It makes sense to carry out of the backcountry the extra materials taken there by your group or others. Inspect your campsite for trash or spilled foods. Accept the challenge of packing out all trash, leftover food, and litter.

Sanitation

Backcountry users create body waste and wastewater that require proper disposal.

Wastewater. Help prevent contamination of natural water sources: After straining food particles, properly dispose of dishwater by dispersing at least 200 feet (about 80 to 100 strides for a youth) from springs, streams, and lakes. Use biodegradable soap 200 feet or more from any water source.

Human Waste. Proper human waste disposal helps prevent the spread of disease and exposure to others. Catholes 6 to 8 inches deep in humus and 200 feet from water, trails, and campsites are often the easiest and most practical way to dispose of feces."

Bob White,

You're absolutely right about zero leadership being acceptable at the patrol level, with the approval of the SM. My original post was relevant to Matua specifically having only one ASM present.

I look at your First Class requirement a little differently. I look at the maturity level of the scout rather than rank. Some Star scouts are complete squirrels compared to first year boys. I do however make sure that lower ranking boys have at least a few successful campouts etc... in before I would allow them to go. The PL definitely needs to be at least First Class.

Beyond curfew, some areas, specifically state parks in our area and some town parks, don't allow campers without at least 1 person over the age of 18, or in some cases 21 present. The boys need to check this out in advance.

Another point I would make is that since the boys are not allowed to fuel or light lanterns or stoves without knowledgeable adult leaders present, I do not allow them to use them on their own.(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

On the utensil-less side of breakfast cooking, how about:

Volcano eggs

You can use charcoal or coals from a fire to cook these on. Poke a hole in the top of the shell to let pressure out then place on hot coals. Have a toothpick handy and make sure that the hole you made doesn't get glazed over by some of the cooked egg that oozes out a little (part of the volcano name) or boom, thus the other part of the name.

Bacon and eggs in a paper bag.

You'll need a grill surface above your hot coals for this one. They can be charcoal or coals from a fire, but if you use the fire coals make sure that the flames don't touch the paper bag for mire than a couple of seconds.

First you put the bacon in the bag and let it cook for a little while to get ahead of the eggs since it will take longer to cook. Then just crack the eggs into the bag over the top of the bacon. Reseal the top of the bag and wait. When they're done just cut off all but the bottom inch of the bag, place the cutoff parts under the bag and it makes it's own plate.

Hard boiled egg in a paper cup.

I haven't tried this one yet but am told that if you place your egg in one of those waxed dixie cups on a grill over coals that the only part of the cup that will burn away is the portion above the water line.

Wrap precooked sausages up like a hobo dinner and throw them on some coals to warm up. It only takes about 10 or 15 minutes. This also works for hash browns, but they take a little longer. More like a half hour.

Bacon wrapped over a spit stick and dangling over coals cooks up nicely too.

If you don't have a grill for over your coals you could use 2 logs a few inches apart for most of these things, like a hunters fireplace, or rocks but yuo have to be careful that there are no air pockets in the type of rock you use or boom. You could also use a double spit out of green sticks.

I know some people that have even cooked eggs right on a flat rock they have heated up. This seems too dangerous to me.

Biscuts.

One of our ASMs has an aluminum pan that is hinged on one side (kind of looks like an omlette pan). It was made by Club Aluminum back in the 30s or 40s to bake biscuts on top of the stove. You keep flipping the pan over about every minute or less to keep them from burning on the bottom. The only other one I've seen like this was for sale for around $35 at a Flea Market. Ouch !!! This may be a similar concept to the pie plate biscuts that you mentioned in an earlier post. If you had one plate on top of the other and kept flipping the pan over it would be the same.

You can also do biscuts on a thin stick over coals set on 2 forked sticks into the ground like a spit.

I've also heard of folks notching a stick and wrapping the biscut dough around the stick on a spit.

Those hinged pie irons are good for more than snacks too. The ones I Have are square and are teflon coated on the inside.

They will hold 2 eggs nicely that can be put directly onto bread for a sandwich.

You can cook up some sausage in them first for a little more flavor.

They also hold 1 egg and omlette fixins nicely that you could also put onto bread, a bagel, or an english muffin or even a tortilla.

When you're done just wipe it out, wrap the end in foil so that you don't get ashes on the outside of your pack. Then heat it up real hot before you use it again to kill any germs.(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

Bob White

Dont get me wrong, I believe the one about an active scout merely being registered is a myth as well. My response to the Eagle Dad was to chuckle, shake my head and change the subject, since the boy had already passed his Eagle Board.

Be active in your troop and patrol. Page 169 tells us that, To gain full advantage of all that scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventure. If youre there you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success.

Be present how often? One meeting One activity 20% of the time 50% of the time

Page 14 tells us, Though you can advance at your own pace, active scouts will usually earn First Class within a year of joining a troop.

Could a boy do this by attending 50% of meetings or activities? Probably not. 60%? Probably not. 80+%? Probably.

How active should a boy be, to be considered active for rank advancement? The Second Class and First Class requirements give us specific examples, by the number of activities that they have to attend, not by a time line. This would seem to be a much better way of making sure that they are participating in the process, but for some reason this is not the case for the higher ranks. A boy could theoretically hold the position of Librarian for 16 months. Tell the boys in the troop to call him when they need a Merit Badge Pamphlet. Show up to only those meetings, (possibly as low as 10% to 20%) along with his minimum number of service hours, and be considered active by the book to advance from First Class to Eagle Scout. There are many boys and parents out there that think this way. There are many Paper Eagles out there.

When a troop does not have a policy that dictates a minimum standard to be considered active in that particular troop, that is when scouters are forced to look at things like Demonstrate Scout Spirit by living by the Scout Oath (Promise) and the Scout Law in your everyday life. There are literally thousands of ways that each of the 12 points of the Scout Law can be interpreted. It would be very easy to use the Scout Spirit area to dictate attendance. If a scout is not in attendance, he is not being obedient, trustworthy, or loyal to the notion that he is to help train younger scouts in the manner that he himself was trained. He is not being helpful to the other older scouts that are taking his turn at planning or training the younger scouts, or to the younger scouts. Attendance by older scouts, those of First Class or higher, is a key element for the success of any troop.

It is our job as SMs and ASMs to interpret the meaning of a multitude of things that have been presented vaguely by the BSA. Many deservedly so on their part. A troop that camps 25 nights per year SHOULD have a different standard of attendance from one that only camps 10 nights per year. This is one small example of where Troop Policies are helpful for all concerned. To let them know in advance what the expectations are rather than after the fact.

Would it be a myth to state that Troop Policies are unnecessary, when there are so many areas left intentionally vague, and so many people looking for ways to skirt the intent of what IS there? How can we offer a consistent, well informed, thorough, program that is fair to all of the boys in a given troop without them?

FScouter

Our Unit Commisioner told us about a year ago that National was going to put a ban on white gas products in about 2 years.

I don't know if this is part of, or even a spinoff of the same myth or not.

Regardless, we have been buying propane replacement equipment as it has become needed, just in case.

Hey Bob White

Talk more about your #2, and #3 favorite myths. As I See it, many scouters try to use the attendance as part of the Scout Spirit since there doesn't appear to be a definition of an active scout for advancement.

I have heard the one about merely being registered to be considered an active scout. It came from the ASM father of a boy that was preparing for his Eagle Ceremony. The boy had not attended a meeting or any other a ctivity for 2 years other than the 5 minutes he addressed a Court of Honor looking for his Eagle Project volunteers. 2/3 of the boys in attendance didn't even know who he was.

Dan

It's a myth that works, so we made it a policy.

Bob White

Believe me. The majority of offences are an automatic 4 corners. If they are already missimg a corner when they make a 4 corner offense, that fifth one goes onto the next card to start with.

We probably focus more on the little things that most scouters overlook. An old employer of mine used to say of business, "if you take care of the pennies and nickels, the dollars will take care of themselves."

When we focus on little things that are commonly overlooked, the boys are automatically more focussed on the big things and they don't happen.

Ron

I've heard this expression used in reference to inspections for District Camporees.

When I asked the people running the camporee what this meant, they told me it could be found in the Camping Merit Badge Pamphlet.

I've never checked, but this might be where you can find it.

By the way, I would say that it would be real close to what Dan wrote, even though I would prefer Bob White's version. Oh well... Maybe someday again...

KS

The Firem'n Chit has similar wording to that of the Totin' Chip.

It sounds like hops' troop has a policy similar to one that our troop has regarding how they monitor those that are exercising safety, and adhering to the Outdoor Code in these situations.

We still cut off a corner, or more for serious offences, and therefore demand to see the cards of all violators. When all 4 corners are gone those particular rights are suspended. At that time they don't only forfeit any offending equipment to be collected by their parents, but have to retake the appropriate course, (5 page Q&A session for each) AND have to teach it to at least one other scout to receive a new card and regain their suspended rights.

We won't take the book requirement away once it is earned, but since the appropriate rights could be suspended we won't look at the book as proof of their rights.

We don't go looking for scouts to harass about whether they have their card with them or not, but if they act unwisely there will be consequences to be paid. If they don't have the card, their rights may be already suspended, and we will err' on the side of caution when it comes to safety.

Twocubdad

VFW Posts, American Legion Posts, Lions Clubs, Moose Clubs, Elks Clubs, churches etc... have several sources of income to run their OVERALL PROGRAM. These consist of tithes, dues, raffles/bingo/poker machines, bar and food sales, other fundraisers, donations, etc...

These monies go to pay for salaries, utilities, rents, mortgages, supporting needy people, etc...

BSA would have no say regarding how these OVERALL PROGRAM monies are earned, unless in an illegal way, these monies are all gray and fuzzy as they pertain to where they are spent, but would as they pertain to fundraisers specifically targeting how the scouting program is conducted, ie. I want to do a $10,000.00 raffle and give your unit all of the proceeds from it. This is my point, and this is how the original post began.

As Ed said, he shouldn't, nor should any of us, accept a troop trailer that was earned by a raffle specifically targeted to provide us with this trailer. Taking a trailer is just like taking the money directly. And I'll ask this for a third time, why aren't the boys out earning this trailer themselves? Why are they looking for a handout from their CO?

Scoutldr

I understand your frustration but consider this. The United Way is not the one demanding 100% participation. It is politically correct corporations that are trying to make themselves look better. The UW is not sending out thugs and goons to collect this money, it is a corporate thing done by executives trying to feel better about themselves.

As far as the UW taking in donations coming from raffles, etc... this is one of those gray areas where it would be impossible to sort out what donations went where, and even though our policies should stretch to our CO's, it would be too far of a stretch to take them to the United Way. They're too far up the food chain.

God Bless the VFW and American Legion !!! They do A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT for our youth in the scouting programs AND atheletics programs.

But, when they supply the resource of a meeting place for a unit, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding the safety and adequacy of the meeting place. They might not have to follow the same guidelines for their sports programs but they do when providing this service to their scouting program.

When they supply the resource of drivers for our events, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding current and past licensing, insurance, and age requirements. They could have had a drivers license revoked previously and still be able to drive a sports team, but not when supplying this service to their Scouting Unit.

When they supply the resource of a SM, CO REP, or Troop Committee, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding the quality and background, criminal or other, of the adults that they supply. They could have people with various criminal backgrounds working with their sporting programs that would not be allowed into a SM, CO Rep, or Troop Committee position in their Scouting Unit.

When they supply the resource of funding their unit, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, why aren't they bound by our policy of not doing it with a raffle?

I'm still having trouble seeing how in the absence of a policy covering how the CO can or can't donate to or fund their scouting program when doing it soley for the financial benifit of the scouting program that they are conducting, why they aren't bound by the policies that tell us how we can conduct Unit Fundraising.

If they want to have a Raffle to support their baseball program, I have no problem with that, but not SPECIFICALLY for the scouting program that they are conducting. Our standards are higher.

It sounds like what you're saying is that they are only bound by our policies while supplying resources when it is convenient, not as they relate to ALL scouting program issues as they conduct the scouting program.

A CO is to,"Conduct the scouting program according to it's own policies and guidelines, as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America."

This isn't an issue of trademarks, etc... It's about when should the CO be following OUR policies.

We may just have to agree that we disagree on this one.

If we don't give the boys the option and free choice to do mulitple activities we are going to lose them, especially the older they get.

Between a yearly sports schedule, including baseball, soccer, football, and basketball, all of which are equally important to a childs physical and emotional development, then later band, other clubs, work, and girls, we are always in competition for the boys time.

So what can we do? We can have a more exciting program to get them there, reschedule your meeting date and time so that as many boys as possible can attend, or do both. We have our meetings on Sunday afternoon. There is no sports competition here at that time, except my missing NFL games and NASCAR races. I tape them and watch later though, so even that works out.

Additionally, I don't think you will actually have these new scouts miss ALL meetings until baseball is over. They generally don't play on the same nights over and over, at leaset here that's how it works.

Can you make a patrol work with only 2 to 3 boys present? Sure you can. In fact, with a Troop Guide or Instructor they will be able to get more requirements out of the way that generally take longer to rotate through. Cooking requirements for example. As long as you have a PL and someone to follow him, you have the basic requirements for a patrol.

Also, is your program so structured that it can't be modified to accomodate these boys by possibly learning the missed skills at a future campout during down time? Do you have days built into the schedule as make up days for meetings missed? Baseball or not, all boys will miss some meetings.

Bob White

Great thoughts !!! I particularly like the one about the Merit Badges during Troop Meetings.

Our troop used to do this, and the problem we had was that there were always some boys that had it already,(we only focus on Eagle Required ones) and some boys that the material was completely over their heads. We were'nt giving a well rounded program when we excluded people.

I like the advantage of doing these as a group because there are more ideas and opinions that flow and more is learned by the boys, so...we now schedule 2 to 3 Eagle Required Merit Badge Classes throughout the year, but at an hour and a half prior to the troop meeting. This way, the boys that need it, and can successfully complete it still and they have the option of doing it in a group environment.

Regarding the FCFY, I have mixed emotions. I believe that the sooner the boys get their First Class Skills, the sooner that they are experienced campers and able to handle MOST situations. But, I also believe that we are not doing them a service by rushing the process. I have seen on other troop web sites that there are troops that have a program set up to accomplish this, sort of like how the Weblos program is set up. As I look through some of what they are trying to accomplish I have to wonder if they are providing a well rounded Troop Meeting while they are doing this, utilizing the 7 steps.

I have also seen within our own troop that some of the boys, when in a hurry, will only hit on and test what they feel are the most important parts of a requirement. This can be a problem.

eamonn

Don't stop at this site alone !!!

How many councils are there in the US?

Ther are 7 in Indiana alone !!!

Check out as many as you can !!!

Bob White

"THAT is the point of the policy". What policy? There is no policy pertaining to how the charter organization should fund the scouting program. They are not required to do so. The boys are supposed to be earning their own way. Not looking for handouts.

When "they are funding their own unit", the charter organization that is, by doing a fundraiser directly for the unit, they are bound by the same policies as the unit. They are one of the 3 PARTS or branches of the unit as it pertains to the scouting program and are therefore bound by the BSA's policies.

If the CO wants to have a raffle and give the proceeds to a Sunday School Class, that is when they are separate from the unit.

Additionally, "free from the stigma of gambling". The definition of stigma, per MSN learning and research plus is; sign of social unacceptability. the shame or disgrace attached to something regarded as something socially unacceptable. Sounds like they think that gambling is not only shameful and disgraceful, but unacceptable, just like I said a few postings back.

If it's unacceptable for one branch of the unit, isn't it unacceptable for all 3 of them?

dsteele

Here's what our council does:

1. Vanity License Plates. The State of Indiana hooks us up with $25.00 for every scouting one sold.

2. Marsh Cookout on the Circle in downtown Indy. This one is used to send our underpriviledged boys to camp.

3. The Boy Scout Memorabilia Auction. This is a show and auction with experts on hand to let you know what you have.

4. Shooting Stars is a clay target tournament that we sponsor.

5. Council Award Dinner. $200.00 per plate or $1500.00 per table of 8, with higher levels of sponsorship of $2500.00, and $5000.00. We anticipate around $115,000.00 for this one this year.

Details of these can be seen at www.crossroadsbsa.org. Since we're all in different regions and aparently not competing with one another, it seems as though it wouldn't be all that difficult to get the web addresses of all the councils and see what all of them are doing.

Also, are you doing everything you can to make your current fundraisers more profitable? We had a new Popcorn Colonel (pun intended) this year that got us all motivated to do show and sell. He gave several other pointers to help us be more successful as well. Our popcorn sales doubled per boy as a result.

Also, depending on where you are, troops recieve anywhere from 30 to 40% of the gross sales of popcorn. Maybe some councils and districts are taking a bigger share than others. This year we got 33% because we attended the program instead of the 30% that we normally would have gotten. We came out ahead all around with a better percentage and increased sales, and so did the district and council even though they gave away some of their percentage.

How about a:

Dinner Dance with a theme. Maybe a hog roast/luau, square dance, 50's dance, a 70's dance (I can't believe I just said that). Maybe even add a silent or regular auction to the mix.

Haunted House? Well, a really big haunted house. Never think small.

A community garage or rummage sale with donated items, or sell parking spots for people to set up at for $10 or $15 per space. Set up concessions while you're at it. Our UNIT will make around $10,000.00 in concession sales this year at community events.

That's all I can think of for now. If I get any more, I'll let ya know

silver-shark

Bob White

"Among a chartered organization's responsibilities are the following:

Conduct the Scouting program according to it's own policies and guidelines, AS WELL AS THOSE OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA." This is from page 156 of the SM Handbook.

You hit the nail on the head when you said, "It is not called a donation because it is the charter organizations unit. They are not donating to themselves, they are funding their own program." This is reinforced by the Troop Committee Guidebook which states,"Your troop is "owned" by a chartered organization, which recieves a national charter yearly to use the Scouting program as a part of its youth work. These chartered organizations, WHICH HAVE GOALS COMPATIBLE WITH THOSE OF THE BSA, include," etc...

This is just like a fast food corporation, (or the BSA), telling their franchisees, (the charter organization) how they will operate THEIR franchise, because basically, they ARE one and the same.

The troop and charter organization apear to be locked together in their goals and policies in the eyes of the BSA. You are absolutely right, they ARE funding THEIR OWN UNIT with any fundraiser they take on FOR THE UNIT.

Regarding your statement that, "the Troop Committee Guidebook does indeed refer to the Charter Organization giving financial support to the unit", I'm not seeing it. The only thing I see in either book is that they are to supply an adequate meeting place, select a Scoutmaster, and supply a Troop Committee.

The boys should be making their own money, not looking for ways to side step the polocies where they are looking for loop holes, which is basically what the original question asked.

You're right on Bob.

The only thing I would add is that at least one of the 2 mwmbers of any activity must be at least 21 years old according to the Guide to Safe Scouting. They couldn't have just 2 18 year old ASM's if the SM weren't present.

Great insight guys.

I was first tempted to bend rules by the trainers at my OLS Training. This consisted of things like placing the water pot directly on the fire during a water boiling contest. Nothing big, but something to make ya think.

Since then, we have taken the 2 weeks prior to a camporee to practice for the competitive events, so that the boys would know what to do when the time came. This might be cheating to some.

We had our District Camporee last weekend. At the beginning of the competitive events we had 2 patrols try to merge and send the newest scouts out on their own. We did not allow this to happen even though the older boys would have easily done better alone.

They still managed to come home with a ribbon, and I would like to think that it meant more to them since they were at greater odds to have done it.

OOPS, I hit the wrong key.

Bob

The original question asks, "if its appropriate for BSA units to sponsor this same type event"?

Also, as a member of the council with the third most visited summer camp program in the US behind only Sea Base and Philmont, and at about one-third the cost I might add, I know all too well what goes into the council fundraising that makes this happen, and am VERY grateful. We just merged another council in with us that did not have nearly the resources that we do, and will spend the next 3 to 5 years modernizing their faciliries among other things.

The fact of the matter is, we are the only male role models for many of these boys, and we have to act like it every time we put on the uniform. If it's wrong to do it in front of the boys, it's wrong to do it to support them. The ends cannot be allowed to justify the means when there are PLENTY of fundraisers that we can ALL be proud of.

silver-shark

PS I'm no holier or more righteous than anyone. I love an adult beverage as much or more than most people, but I'm not toasting the boys when I do it.

Bob