ScoutMythBuster

That is assuming the troop has First Class' who wish to be DC's.

Beavah

This I agree with completely. Sometimes, the boys need the chance for that stretch to grow. You never want to see a boy set up to fail and even not being selected can be turned into something positive with good leadership. Using the example of the non-swimmer being selected life guard, I wouldn't say you can't be life guard because you can't swim but maybe something like you should work on your swimming skills to better prepare yourself.

The only thing that needs to be monitored is that the boys are electing or appointing positions by ability and not by popularity. I think that when its a popularity contest is the only time a SM should step in and make sure the scouts understand the consequences of their decision.

Scoutfish, I agree with that maybe the boy did not know or even want it. The mother was wrong, no doubt. She did not follow procedure for obtaining a DC.

Misinterpretation causes conflicts, and we all wish to avoid conflicts. Sometimes falling back on blanket "rules" or the easy answer is a way to avoid conflict. But when we can say, in this instance, to the DL mom that the CM must request and then the SPL and SM selects and the Committee and CM approves and can show this in text she never would have misinterpreted what was said and propagated her misunderstanding as fact, which in turn the other parent took as the SM being deceitful.

Could it go the other way? Yes, she could take insult to being quoted rules and a confrontation could have followed. Either example has the possibility of confrontation; this way cannot be misinterpreted.

I guess my point is that poitive guidenance and leadership will help guide the youth to succeed where a Internal Requirement may only cause the youth to strive for rank and maynot help correct personality problems. With the rank requirement, you now have a First Class that is still a problem and have to create another "not rude" reason. The important thing is not to be negative, ei: he's a jerk, nobody likes him ...

First, how about explaining that the correct proceedure is to ask the CM so the CM can make the request.

Now regarding the youth if the SM feels the scout is not ready. How about saying why he isn't ready? No need to be rude or mean. The position does not need somebody who talks back or is a distraction, many people said that and I agree. How about something like "I appreciate that you are interested in being a DC but you are not being selected. The reason why is that you have a hard following instructions and like to talk back. This is something you can work on and if you improve in these areas we can consider you the next time a DC is needed.". Something along this line will let the scout why he isn't being selected and gives the scout something to work on.

If the SM has reasons for not selecting the boy and falls back on the First Class thing what happens when he is First Class and the scout hasn't changed?

Yes, I agree the mother misunderstood but I do not think the SM fully did this situation justice. It would not have been rude to explain to the mother the "order of operation". Who should ask, and maybe explain the why. Instead, mentioning rank; even though I agree with you he did not say it was a rule. It was implied from her point of view. When you are not clear about your reason for doing something it can be misinterpreted.

I agree that deception is harsh, but that is what is said in the example.

And the SM is wrong. Not be rude? He lied, either by ignorance or an internal rule. He said it was a requirement. If it was an internal policy, he should have said it. But that is not what is implied. He said it was a requirement so he wasn't rude. So, instead of telling the mother politely it was not her position to ask and to take it up with the Cubmaster he made up a requirement. Remember, a Scout is Honest!

Sorry, but the SM was wrong. The second mother found out about the deception...

acco40, THANK YOU. YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO SEE THE DANGER IN THIS KIND AF IMPROVISING. YOUR EXAMPLE IS PERFECT, AND POINTS OUT HOW THE PARENTS COULD LOOSE FAITH IN THE INTEGRITY OF THE SCOUTMASTER. HE SHOULD HAVE EXPLAINED THE REAL RULE AND LET THE CUBMASTER ASK OR NOT ASK.

wow. I admit I have never dealt with LDS units. The closest thing I seen is that Packmaster and Troopmaster asks if your unit is an LDS unit. Now you got me thinking, I have to check it off and see what changes. Thank You. Also, I will research this a little more for my own knowledge. Do you have any links for information on LDS Guidelines? (no sarcasm)

I do believe that when it comes to Patrol Method, Rank Requirements and POR's there should be one set of rules. Every youth participant in the BSA should have the same oppurtunity to participate. No and's, if's or but's... Now, we had mentioned Local Policies before, after researching a little I have seen some footnotes for certain MB that references obeying the local regulations, ei shotgun shooting. That I understand. BSA Policy cannot trump local, state or federal laws. We would not be good citizens if we did that.

And to let everybody know, I do appreciate all of your points of view. This is exactly what I was looking for. I needed to see how a poorly scripted Description and/or Requirement can cause so much controversy and debate. And that is exactly what this is, poorly scripted.

What I am citing is exactly what the National Youth Development Team is stating as the Policy and Rules for a Den Chief. I am presenting this as fact, not adding. After discussing this with everybody here, I came to realize that the written explanation is inadequate and no matter what is said people are going to keep making up their own requirements because of whatever reason. I am sorry that people cannot accept the fact that they do not have the right not the authority to modify or change National Policy. It is this mentality is responsible for so many problems, not just in BSA but almost everywhere in the world. And POR are part of advancement, even if it is not being used that way. So it is protected under Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures.

And, just in case you are wondering where my information comes from ... you can request it yourself from national. Uniform issues, national awards, Boy Scout and Cub Scout program questions: rhonda.devaney@scouting.org

Ok, here is clarification for those who think they have the power to change the rules ....

From the National Youth Development Team...

As stated in the previous e-mail to you, there is not a particular rank level required to be a Den Chief. Also, no one can add to or modify national policy and if someone is adding a rank requirement in order for a scout to become a Den Chief, then they are adding a requirement which goes against national policy. I have attached the page from the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures book.(It is page 23)

And for those who said I should be focusing on the boys, I am.

And a thank you to ScoutNut for correcting me on the Scout volunteering for DC position. That is true and I was incorrect there.

OK. We all agree that tweaking rules are wrong. We all agree that rank is not a requirement. We all agree that blanket rules are wrong.

What we do not agree on is that local authorities do NOT have the right to make these kind of requirements up. Again, I say that local requirements regarding certain POR cause confussion and does not do anybody justice. After multiple conversations with Trainers, Scoutmasters, Cubmasters, DE's, and National Program Planners DC's should be selected on an individual basis based on the youth's ability to carry out the responsibilties of the office not rank. Yes, I know a Tenderfoot cannot get credit towards rank for this; but it maybe a good learning experience for a youth that has natural leadership ability. A rank Requirement would prevent this youth from this experience early on. And once you make it a Requirement that is what happens.

And yes, it is a peeve of mine. As I stated earlier, last year at a POW-WOW I saw 30 Tenderfoots and Second Classes seperated from First Class and above; repramanded in front of their peers because they did not belong there due to their rank. They were selected based on ability and need by the SM and had already been approved by the CM. 15 of these boys quit scouting after this embarrassment. So I ask you, how important effective is a local requirement when it causes us to loose scouts?

It has been a good year recruiting. Last year we started something new, boundaries are the night you Pack or Troop meets. It makes it easier on the parents and increases the number of potential scouts. Of course all the units have to agree, that is the hard part.

Some National Policies will say follow local laws, ei shotgun shooting. But, according to my DE, even Councils cannot modify any "Rule" or "Requirement" with out National's Approval. As with the knife Policies, there is no real National Guideline. A guide to safe Scouting states to avoid large Fixed Blade Knives. And the rules change from council to council. This is confusing and National SHOULD have a clear, concise policy. All policies should be the same across the country unless a local law restricts it.

I agree, training is the key. Sometimes the Training Committee is the problem, some Trainers have been doing the job so long that the tradition is now taught as the rule and the problem than snow balls in a horrible beast.

I am just pointing out that the List of Responsibilties are enough of a guideline for selection. If a youth can carry that out Rank does not matter. That is all I am saying. For anybody to put more into it than that is wrong. And interest in the position was never suggested, it is an appointed position not one you volunteer for. Actually, to me you seem more argumentative, you are right when you said "SM and SPL's right to put them in place as a way of carrying out their troop program." That is correct. 100%. What isn't is that they can tweak the requirements to fit their program. They have every right as long as it complies with the actual rules that are set forth ... not personal opinion or tradition.

Sorry if I seem argumentative but from my own experience when SM and others flex their own rules the program falls short. Like the earlier thread about the troop that does not "do" Den Chief's, that's just crazy. The reason why we should not add or subtract from the program without the appropriate supervision is the fact that 1 units rules are adopted by another, and eventually it snow balls into something ugly. Like 30 Tenderfoots and Seconds Classes being seperated and being told that they have no right to be at Den Chief Training during a POW-WOW. If 30 years ago, or whatever, some Scoutmaster did not think it was his or her right to make this alteration to the program it never would have snowballed to that event. I know that this is also a blanket statement but it happens and I have seen it. And yes, every position of responsibility has guidelines that need to be followed, I agree.

I never said any job was open ended, nor did I say that just because the youth wants it they should get it. It is a JOB. So, if the youth is not being considered there should be real reason. Not a made up Rank Requirement. If the youth ever asked "why am I not being selected" it should be explained in a positive matter why they weren't. I think we owe it to them.

So I am not misunderstood. There is no Rank Requirement. The SM and SPL selects a DC based upon ability to carry out the responsibilities of a Den Chief. The proposed DC is presented to the Committee and CM for final approval. This not a postion that a youth volunteers for but if the boy/girl requests a reason why they are not being considered, they should recieve an honest reason so they can see where their weaknesses are so they can become a better scout.

This selection process can be carried out without making up additional guidelines or requirements. And being chosen or not chosen can both be positive experiences if handle correctly.

Ok. Shortridge you are completely lost. The fact that you can not change the rules set forth by National. Den Chief is a Position of Leadership and therefore falls under the Guide Lines of Rank Requirements. So, with that being said, nobody has the right to make a blanket decision that states that a Tenderfoot or Second Class cannot be a Den Chief. I never said you cannot have standards or internal guides; I said you cannot use Rank or change Requirements to fit your needs. Nobody has the right to make that decision, sorry. If you have a youth who would be disruptive as a Den Chief you have an obligation as a Scoutmaster to explain that to the youth. Making a judgment based on an individual's ability is different than changing a Requirement. To say you cannot be a Den Chief because you are not First Class is wrong. We are suppose to be training future leaders and that means helping them mature and grow. Instead, we make up our own rules so we can make our own jobs easier. Sorry if this seems harsh but all you have talked about is the "power" a Scoutmaster has and you have ignored the responsibility. First Class can be obtained in 1 year, so really how much mature are they? Some boys are natural leaders, some need help.

And the statement you made about "Scoutmasters cannot use any criteria not listed in the requirements to turn down a boy interested in being DC, no matter how unqualified" that is correct. If the youth is unqualified, he should not be considered. A blanket "Requirement" does not fix this. Being a Scoutmaster and understanding the youth and encouraging the use of the Patrol Method does. Youth must be reviewed on an individual basis. And if the SPL feels the youth is qualified, and the Cubmaster and Committee agrees what gives the Scoutmaster the right to disagree? It sounds like an ego issue.

I never said that their is no guidelines for selection. The youth must be able to fulfill the Requirements of Office.

Responsibilities: The Cub Scout den chief's responsibilities are to

■Know the purposes of Cub Scouting.

■Help Cub Scouts achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting.

■Serve as the activities assistant at den meetings.

■Set a good example through attitude and uniforming.

■Be a friend to the boys in the den.

■Help lead weekly den meetings.

■Help the den in its part of the monthly pack meeting.

■Know the importance of the monthly theme and pack meeting plans.

■Meet regularly with the den leader to review den and pack meeting plans. Meet as needed with adult members of the den, pack, and troop.

■Receive training from the den leader (and Cubmaster or assistant Cubmaster) and attend Den Chief Training.

■Encourage Cub Scouts to become Webelos Scouts when they are eligible.

■Help the denner and assistant denner to be leaders.

They can be found at http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/csdcf.aspx

So, if the Scoutmaster, Cubmaster or the Committee cannot select a Den Chief with these guidelines and feel the need to enforce their own rules than maybe that individual needs to figure out if it's about the youth or their own power trip.

Option 2: Start your own Troop. If they are run as poorly as it sounds others may also be in need of a new troop. You need a minimum of 5 boys and I think 3 adults, plus an organization to Sponsor you. Your DE will have some insight on leads for you and you will be surprised by what happens.

Ok. Eagle 92, I think you are starting to see my point. If you use rank as criteria it is a blanket decision. Yes, the youth must be selected but really what does rank prove? That the youth demonstrated a skill correctly 1 time. What if you had a 14 year old 2nd class?

The argument is crazy, a Scout is chosen and approved. If the youth is going to be a disturbance, then you don't want to approve him you should make it a positive growing experience. After all it is a leadership position. Maturity is a relative thing, it is not required but something to be considered.

Now as for "National Said", I spoke to the person who chairs the Youth Development Team, so since that is there job, I think they know the ins and outs.

Eagle Pete- first this not the National Website. Only that website can be taken as gospel. Second, Den Chief is a Position of Leadership that can be used as a requirement for rank. I have already spoke with National and any entity that is modifying this position's requirements is doing so wrongly. The regulations are in place so that every scout has an equal opportunity to be trained and to be part of the boy lead movement.

Sorry, this is the National Policy. Requirements are what they are and cannot be modified, restricted or changed without the permission of National. The reason there are local policies like this is because somewhere along the line somebody thought they new better and wanted to do it there way.

Ok. Simply put Rank may not be used as a condition for DC. It is not fair to say all Tenderfoots are unworthy because whatever and you are prepared as a First Class is unfair. I have seen Tenderfoots who are more mature and studious that Star Scouts. Instead of a blanket rule it should be determined on a per Scout basis. That is why the Rules and Requirements should not be changed or embellished.

Actually, no they can't. According to the Scoutmaster's Handbook, Scoutmaster Training Syllabus and the Merit Badge Books nobody has the right to change any requirement without the approval of the National Council. Even alternate requirements for rank when dealing with disable scouts must come from National.

Actually, no the Scoutmaster may NOT impose a local rule. If he chooses not to accept a Scout as a Den Chief there has to be an actual reason. Local Rules do Not exist in Scouting. National Policy is the end all be all Policy. Local Rules start Urban Myths which lead to all kind of stupid stuff. The Rule is there is NO Rank Requirement. If a Scoutmaster sets up a rule and a Cubmaster request a particular non-First Class Scout, then what? Now this fabricated rule must be enforced or bent. Controversy and anarchy follows. Just follow the rules as they are written. Do not embellish. And in all reality I have a Tenderfoot older than one of my First Class'.

Usually the uniform Nazi is also the person who enforces urban legend rules, ei Den Chief must be first class. They lack tack and really should not be workig with kids. And if you look closely they have non uniform items on their uniform. As with buying new uniforms, I go to a variety of uniform shops and not one of them know what to give the boys in regards to uniforms. The inspection sheets are useful, when you can get them and most people do not realize that a mini uniform guide is in every handbook.