ScoutMythBuster

That is assuming the troop has First Class' who wish to be DC's.

Beavah This I agree with completely. Sometimes, the boys need the chance for that stretch to grow. You never want to see a boy set up to fail and even not being selected can be turned into something positive with good leadership. Using the example of the non-swimmer being selected life guard, I wouldn't say you can't be life guard because you can't swim but maybe something like you should work on your swimming skills to better prepare yourself. The only thing that needs to be monitored is that the boys are electing or appointing positions by ability and not by popularity. I thin

Scoutfish, I agree with that maybe the boy did not know or even want it. The mother was wrong, no doubt. She did not follow procedure for obtaining a DC. Misinterpretation causes conflicts, and we all wish to avoid conflicts. Sometimes falling back on blanket "rules" or the easy answer is a way to avoid conflict. But when we can say, in this instance, to the DL mom that the CM must request and then the SPL and SM selects and the Committee and CM approves and can show this in text she never would have misinterpreted what was said and propagated her misunderstanding as fact, which in t

I guess my point is that poitive guidenance and leadership will help guide the youth to succeed where a Internal Requirement may only cause the youth to strive for rank and maynot help correct personality problems. With the rank requirement, you now have a First Class that is still a problem and have to create another "not rude" reason. The important thing is not to be negative, ei: he's a jerk, nobody likes him ...

First, how about explaining that the correct proceedure is to ask the CM so the CM can make the request. Now regarding the youth if the SM feels the scout is not ready. How about saying why he isn't ready? No need to be rude or mean. The position does not need somebody who talks back or is a distraction, many people said that and I agree. How about something like "I appreciate that you are interested in being a DC but you are not being selected. The reason why is that you have a hard following instructions and like to talk back. This is something you can work on and if you improve in

Yes, I agree the mother misunderstood but I do not think the SM fully did this situation justice. It would not have been rude to explain to the mother the "order of operation". Who should ask, and maybe explain the why. Instead, mentioning rank; even though I agree with you he did not say it was a rule. It was implied from her point of view. When you are not clear about your reason for doing something it can be misinterpreted.

I agree that deception is harsh, but that is what is said in the example. And the SM is wrong. Not be rude? He lied, either by ignorance or an internal rule. He said it was a requirement. If it was an internal policy, he should have said it. But that is not what is implied. He said it was a requirement so he wasn't rude. So, instead of telling the mother politely it was not her position to ask and to take it up with the Cubmaster he made up a requirement. Remember, a Scout is Honest!

Sorry, but the SM was wrong. The second mother found out about the deception...

acco40, THANK YOU. YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO SEE THE DANGER IN THIS KIND AF IMPROVISING. YOUR EXAMPLE IS PERFECT, AND POINTS OUT HOW THE PARENTS COULD LOOSE FAITH IN THE INTEGRITY OF THE SCOUTMASTER. HE SHOULD HAVE EXPLAINED THE REAL RULE AND LET THE CUBMASTER ASK OR NOT ASK.

wow. I admit I have never dealt with LDS units. The closest thing I seen is that Packmaster and Troopmaster asks if your unit is an LDS unit. Now you got me thinking, I have to check it off and see what changes. Thank You. Also, I will research this a little more for my own knowledge. Do you have any links for information on LDS Guidelines? (no sarcasm) I do believe that when it comes to Patrol Method, Rank Requirements and POR's there should be one set of rules. Every youth participant in the BSA should have the same oppurtunity to participate. No and's, if's or but's... Now, we

What I am citing is exactly what the National Youth Development Team is stating as the Policy and Rules for a Den Chief. I am presenting this as fact, not adding. After discussing this with everybody here, I came to realize that the written explanation is inadequate and no matter what is said people are going to keep making up their own requirements because of whatever reason. I am sorry that people cannot accept the fact that they do not have the right not the authority to modify or change National Policy. It is this mentality is responsible for so many problems, not just in BSA but almos

Ok, here is clarification for those who think they have the power to change the rules .... From the National Youth Development Team... As stated in the previous e-mail to you, there is not a particular rank level required to be a Den Chief. Also, no one can add to or modify national policy and if someone is adding a rank requirement in order for a scout to become a Den Chief, then they are adding a requirement which goes against national policy. I have attached the page from the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures book.(It is page 23) And for those who said I shoul

OK. We all agree that tweaking rules are wrong. We all agree that rank is not a requirement. We all agree that blanket rules are wrong. What we do not agree on is that local authorities do NOT have the right to make these kind of requirements up. Again, I say that local requirements regarding certain POR cause confussion and does not do anybody justice. After multiple conversations with Trainers, Scoutmasters, Cubmasters, DE's, and National Program Planners DC's should be selected on an individual basis based on the youth's ability to carry out the responsibilties of the office not

It has been a good year recruiting. Last year we started something new, boundaries are the night you Pack or Troop meets. It makes it easier on the parents and increases the number of potential scouts. Of course all the units have to agree, that is the hard part.

Some National Policies will say follow local laws, ei shotgun shooting. But, according to my DE, even Councils cannot modify any "Rule" or "Requirement" with out National's Approval. As with the knife Policies, there is no real National Guideline. A guide to safe Scouting states to avoid large Fixed Blade Knives. And the rules change from council to council. This is confusing and National SHOULD have a clear, concise policy. All policies should be the same across the country unless a local law restricts it.

I agree, training is the key. Sometimes the Training Committee is the problem, some Trainers have been doing the job so long that the tradition is now taught as the rule and the problem than snow balls in a horrible beast.

I am just pointing out that the List of Responsibilties are enough of a guideline for selection. If a youth can carry that out Rank does not matter. That is all I am saying. For anybody to put more into it than that is wrong. And interest in the position was never suggested, it is an appointed position not one you volunteer for. Actually, to me you seem more argumentative, you are right when you said "SM and SPL's right to put them in place as a way of carrying out their troop program." That is correct. 100%. What isn't is that they can tweak the requirements to fit their program. T

Ok. Shortridge you are completely lost. The fact that you can not change the rules set forth by National. Den Chief is a Position of Leadership and therefore falls under the Guide Lines of Rank Requirements. So, with that being said, nobody has the right to make a blanket decision that states that a Tenderfoot or Second Class cannot be a Den Chief. I never said you cannot have standards or internal guides; I said you cannot use Rank or change Requirements to fit your needs. Nobody has the right to make that decision, sorry. If you have a youth who would be disruptive as a Den Chief you

Option 2: Start your own Troop. If they are run as poorly as it sounds others may also be in need of a new troop. You need a minimum of 5 boys and I think 3 adults, plus an organization to Sponsor you. Your DE will have some insight on leads for you and you will be surprised by what happens.

Ok. Eagle 92, I think you are starting to see my point. If you use rank as criteria it is a blanket decision. Yes, the youth must be selected but really what does rank prove? That the youth demonstrated a skill correctly 1 time. What if you had a 14 year old 2nd class? The argument is crazy, a Scout is chosen and approved. If the youth is going to be a disturbance, then you don't want to approve him you should make it a positive growing experience. After all it is a leadership position. Maturity is a relative thing, it is not required but something to be considered. Now a

Eagle Pete- first this not the National Website. Only that website can be taken as gospel. Second, Den Chief is a Position of Leadership that can be used as a requirement for rank. I have already spoke with National and any entity that is modifying this position's requirements is doing so wrongly. The regulations are in place so that every scout has an equal opportunity to be trained and to be part of the boy lead movement. Sorry, this is the National Policy. Requirements are what they are and cannot be modified, restricted or changed without the permission of National. The reason

Ok. Simply put Rank may not be used as a condition for DC. It is not fair to say all Tenderfoots are unworthy because whatever and you are prepared as a First Class is unfair. I have seen Tenderfoots who are more mature and studious that Star Scouts. Instead of a blanket rule it should be determined on a per Scout basis. That is why the Rules and Requirements should not be changed or embellished.

Actually, no they can't. According to the Scoutmaster's Handbook, Scoutmaster Training Syllabus and the Merit Badge Books nobody has the right to change any requirement without the approval of the National Council. Even alternate requirements for rank when dealing with disable scouts must come from National.

Actually, no the Scoutmaster may NOT impose a local rule. If he chooses not to accept a Scout as a Den Chief there has to be an actual reason. Local Rules do Not exist in Scouting. National Policy is the end all be all Policy. Local Rules start Urban Myths which lead to all kind of stupid stuff. The Rule is there is NO Rank Requirement. If a Scoutmaster sets up a rule and a Cubmaster request a particular non-First Class Scout, then what? Now this fabricated rule must be enforced or bent. Controversy and anarchy follows. Just follow the rules as they are written. Do not embellish. And

Usually the uniform Nazi is also the person who enforces urban legend rules, ei Den Chief must be first class. They lack tack and really should not be workig with kids. And if you look closely they have non uniform items on their uniform. As with buying new uniforms, I go to a variety of uniform shops and not one of them know what to give the boys in regards to uniforms. The inspection sheets are useful, when you can get them and most people do not realize that a mini uniform guide is in every handbook.