ScoutLass

We don't charge dues. We do $15 per month, per 5 boys. So a den with three boys gets $15, while den with eight boys gets $30. Leaders can spend more, but they have to get treasurer approval first. But we don't just turn the cash over to the den leaders. We used to, but then we ended up with lots of doubles in supplies, like 20 lbs. of plaster of Paris, or a leader buying premade birdhouse kits when we had a huge excess of kits our old cubmaster had made. So, after the pack meeting, the den leaders give a run down of what they are planning for the next month and everyone offers their excess supplies when possible. Then the leaders buy what they need, in budget, and turn in the receipts for reimbursement.

My after the holidays project is to clean up our CO's Sunday School storage room, which we share but rarely use. There are supplies in there older than me! That way we can have a dedicated shelf or two for leaders to "shop" from, instead of me keeping everything in my basement.

We have den flags. I made them upon the request of the last cubmaster and we use them at every pack meeting. Our flags consists of the 10 or 12 inch square rank patch the scout shop caries, sewn onto the fabric that matches that ranks neckerchief (we currently have one den per rank). We display them at pack meetings, have dens carry in their flag for the super-important events (like Blue and Gold), and we use them to display den awards. The den awards are attached to the top of the den flag, much as pack award ribbons are attached to the top of the pack flag. We give out homemade ribbons and awards for den competitions at pack meetings, winning popcorn sales goals, and other special things. The boys like displaying their den trophies and the flags get pretty colorful with all the tassels and ribbons hanging off the top.

The last cubmaster made the poles from long tree branches and the stands from 2-by-4 boards.He drilled holes through the branches to tie the flags to pole. They look impressive framing our "stage" area at pack meetings.

I wouldn't say they are necessary to a successful pack or den, but we enjoy having them.

Momof2, Segments are just small curved patches. Our scout shop has them or you can buy them online. They are only 50 to $1 each, which is good for our pack's limited budget. We award belt loops, but rarely actively encourage them due to the cost, so this is a good stand-in for those. You can make a vest for less than $2 and in 15 minutes, even if you have to hand sew it.

I disagree with the bits and bobbles things. For one, we don't get a ton of patches beyond rank badges in our neck of the woods unless we have them made up ourselves. No Halloween patch or anything here. We award segments for all those types of events. For the boys I've seen in packs that use segments, their vest is almost like a scrapbook of their scouting years. I've looked at patch vests with boys scouts as they pointed out each little segment and shared little stories and memories that they have from earning each one. My husband's pack back in the 80s awarded segments on a sash, and he does the same thing when showing his sash to our boys.

I did a similar topic at our RT last year. From my notes:

1) Properly trained den leaders that understand program delivery.

2) "Trained" parents. I'm constantly surprised at the number of parents that don't understand they are also Akela and can work on advancement at home with their son.

3) Exciting ceremonies. An exciting ceremony, such as Bobcat facepainting, makes the boys that much more hungry to earn their rank.

4) Provide multiple opportunities to complete rank. I see this a lot. For example, the Tiger den does only the five required go-see-its. A kid misses one and is never given an option to make it up so he never gets rank. Coach leaders to provide options to the parents for completing requirements (like the Tiger doing the go-see-it with his parent instead of his den).

5) Keep in Touch with the boys and families who aren't advancing as quickly as the remainder of the den or who only have a month to finish that last requirement for rank. Giving a parent and cub a list of what is left to do makes it much easier for them, especially in Bears and Webelos where dissecting what is required and what isn't gets more complicated.

This last one is a personal pet peeve. I hate, hate, hate the immediate recognition kits for Tigers-Bears. We use them, we give the beads, but I don't think the boys even like them. half quit wearing them within a couple months because the dangling beads get in the way and are too easily lost. We use patch segments heavily though, because the boys are totally into them. We give a segment out at pack meetings for any special pack events the boys attended, and the den has the option of giving one out for any den achievements. We supply patch vests to all cubs for them to display these on. These little segments make the cubs advancement hungry. We have seen 100 percent of our boys who attend at least one meeting a month reach rank in the last two years since we implemented the patch vest and segment awards. A webelos in a vest covered in patches also does more for recruitment than anything else, since even non-cubs are impressed.

We have pack and den meetings on Wednesdays. The schools around here primarily schedule their events on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and Mondays and Fridays get looped into too many 3-day weekends plus people seem to not want to fill the whole days schedule with school/work and scouts at the beginning and end of the week.

Out of curiosity, what advantages do you have in mind? The primary purpose of the pack meeting is to celebrate the boys' and the dens' achievements from the past month with each other and with their families, not plan the program. Planning meetings occur with the leadership team and the parents, but these are separate events from the actual pack meeting. I'm not sure I understand what the point would be for the dens to have a 20 minute meeting in the middle of a pack meeting, I guess.

Committee:

Committee chair

Treasurer

Assistant treasurer

Advancement coordinator

Event chair

Popcorn kernel

Communications coordinator

Program:

Cubmaster

Tiger leader

Wolf leader

Bear leader

Asst. Bear leader

Webelos leader

We recently went under some leadership changes as families crossed over, so a few of us are wearing more hats than usual. For example, I am cubmaster, tiger leader, awards chair, asst. treasurer and communications coordinator. We have filled most of the seats, but some people are still getting their stride, so except for the leaders a couple of leaders most of us are working in two capacities, even if one is just as an assistant to a new volunteer to help them.

In our pack, the cubmaster has traditionally been the assistant treasurer and handled membership paperwork. I'm doing advancement temporarily because I am cleaning up some messy record-keeping from the past but plan on turning it over to a new volunteer soon. I'll be the communications chair for awhile, because I am the only one who knows how to work the pack website right now and I am picky about the newsletters. Just recruited an event chair, but not sure how that is going to work out since the person is flaking a bit, so myself or another current position holder may need to take it over temporarily.

Seems every time we get a full committee and all the positions filled, boys cross over and we are left with a bunch of empty spaces. Those of us with multiple boys who stay in the pack for years just adjust to wearing multiple, constantly changing hats as we retrain and recruit more volunteers.

Please do not take my words out of context. I wrote "willing sacrifice" is one you make because you enjoy it or find it worthwhile. It is not the same as a forced sacrifice you would rather not make. But I believe you already know that and are familiar with this common phrasing.

Blade,

Character is also what you do when others are watching. Right now, others are watching you verbally attack volunteers who willingly sacrifice their free time and money to work with and help youth. I understand that you feel very passionate about uniforming, but that is never a reason to resort to insults and rudeness. That is not modeling scout-like behavior or even mature behavior in any environment. Sometimes, we must agree to disagree. THAT is showing good character.

So what happened to a scout is kind? Friendly? Didn't realize calling people fat and lazy fit into the scout law. How is calling people fat and lazy helping other people?

When you have a female body, with female curves, you can call me lazy for my uniform choice (and it is a choice. The uniform isn't a requirement for scouts or volunteer scouters). Instead of spending hard earned money on a tailor, I am going to spend it on my scouts -- where it really matters.

Methinks some of the posters in this thread need to review scout spirit a little bit.

Well, I'm not much for believing that the point of education is to feed the factory. Our youth need an education so they can create meaningful jobs, not become the cogs in a corporate dinosaur. Of course, I am an anthro major, so what do I know

The issue, in my sincere opinion, isn't wasted liberal arts degrees. It's too many kids going to college when college is of no benefit to them. It's kids not growing up until they are in their 30s. It's the basic unsustainability of an outdated educational system that's the problem. Well, those things and the fact politicians really shouldn't be deciding what our youth should and should not know and learn.

Of course, some of the most successful and well-educated people I've had the pleasure of knowing never went to college.

Ah yes, another uniform police thread. Well TT, if those moms had said that to me, it would have been their problem when they had to find a new Cubmaster, den leader, event organizer, awards chair, webmistress, assistant treasurer and district roundtable commissioner. (Yes, I know I do too much and I am actively recruiting more adult volunteers) Thankfully, Scouts isn't a military organization and we aren't forced into unforgiving uniforming standards.

One issue with the women's shirts for a long torso, busty woman such as myself is that they do not stay tucked in. If I raise my arms above the shoulders, the shirt pops out of my waistband. The shirt just isn't long enough and it has nothing to do with my weight. Plus, tucked in shirts in general cause an uncomfortable blooming effect around my chest that makes me a bit self conscious about my top-heaviness. Yes it's my problem, but leaving my shirt untucked is my solution.

My eldest son is very into the uniform and wears it tucked in. My youngest, a first grader, actually bawls if I try to tuck in his shirt. He finds it uncomfortable. This kid doesn't like anything tight around his waist, at all. He won't wear belts or non-elastic pants, either. It isn't worth the battle, and personally if an untucked shirt allows him to enjoy and benefit from scouting, then I'm fine with it because the benefits far outweigh a couple of hyper-critical adults. The same goes for adult scouters. When the uniform police give as much of their time and resources to the youth as I do, then I'll consider caring about how they judge me.

Here we go, from a woman's perspective...

I prefer the little folding shovels, the ones that go in a pouch you can wear on your belt. No digging in the pack for a shovel when the urge strikes. Preferred methodology, which I taught both my boys when they were little on camping trips, is to squat down, pants below the knees. Stick the blade of the unfolded shovel behind the pants with the shovel point in the ground. That way the shovel handle is pulling your pants forward and away from any fall-out. You can put your hand on the shovel handle to steady yourself and feel more grounded as you do your business, too.

My family camped and hiked from the time I was an infant, so I've never given it much thought. Just something you do. My husband on the other hand "camped" in cabins all his life. He is quite uptight about the whole pooping in the woods thing and isn't one for long trips away from modern toilets.

I can think of several reasons I have seen personally. When my family joined our pack five years ago, it wasn't a uniformed pack. Less than half the boys and maybe one leader ever wore a uniform. Our pack is now at near 100 percent uniformed and all leaders wear one. I've seen the difference.

Boys in uniform have a greater sense teamwork, a sense of pride (in themselves, in their pack and in scouting in general), and commitment. The boys can also easily recognize each other and be recognized when out in the community. For leaders, a uniform first provides recognition to the scouts and parents (especially important with new families), while eliciting respect from the boys.

I think most former scouts have nostalgia about the uniform, so it does impact them. We have been stopped countless times when running errands before a meeting when one of my sons is in uniform. I've had old men and young men flash me their Eagle card, or share a story from their years in cub scouting or boy scouting. We've heard a grandfather talk with pride about his Arrow of Light, and listened to a firefighter bemoan the fact he dropped out right before he earned life scout. The boys listen to these stories and it makes an impact on them. Most of these brief encounters end with a pat on the boy's shoulder or a scout handshake, but they are left with the impression that they belong to a community of good people as well as a sense of awe for being part of something bigger than themselves. They never would have heard the stories or had these encounters if they hadn't been in uniform.

I believe in uniforming, but it is only one of the methods of scouting and not the be-all, end-all. Personally I'd feel uncomfortable and unkind sending home a boy because he wasn't in uniform, especially since in your example the fault seems to primarily lay with mom and not Billy. As I said before, I'd have a long conversation with mom. The extent of punishment in our pack is that boys that don't wear uniforms can't participate in bearing a flag during the pack's flag ceremony and they won't be chosen as Denner.

You could also resort to outright bribery, with prizes such as small candies and such for boys who show up to meetings in uniform. No uniforms on a sports field means no one knows who is on who's team. No uniforms at a den meeting just means that the boys are wearing different clothing. It's not quite the same thing.

BasementDweller, Have you tried asking any of the troops you send Webelos to for old uniforms? Our pack is split down the middle between low-income and middle-income, so we have the same issue. It's the main reason we started doing the vests, so all the boys could at least have something. The district used to have a uniform closet, but it's been tapped out. We've found that troop parents sometimes will donate their boys' old cub uniforms to the pack if we just ask. We don't require uniform pants, belts or hats for this reason.

We do uniform inspections and awards. Den leaders do an inspection at each meeting, usually starting in October so the new boys have a chance to get uniforms. Proper uniforming is one thing the leader uses in determining who is denner for the month. We also hand out patch segments at the pack meeting for the best uniformed boy in each den. By November we have almost 100 percent uniforming. Occasionally a boy shows up without a uniform, but things happen. If it became an ongoing issue I'd talk with the boy and his parents. We also issue a reminder in our monthly newsletter that boys & leaders are expected to wear uniforms.

One thing at the cub level, is that uniforming is as much the parent's responsibility as it is the boys. The boy can be all gung-ho about uniforming, but it does no good if parents don't buy the uniform or give him time before meetings to put it on. Keep your leaders uniformed, get your parents on board, and keep the cubs excited and it all just falls into place with uniforming. One thing we started doing a couple years ago that helped was we give each boy a brag vest when he joins the pack, so he instantly has a uniform-like piece to wear. We make our own vests from felt so they only cost the pack $1 each. That one little bit of clothing has done more to get new boys excited about uniforming than anything else we have done.

First, it will NOT suck as a two Tiger den. My first Tiger den was a two tiger den and it rocked. Our den last year was three boys, and it rocked. My current Tiger den has three boys (one my son), and we're going to rock it this year, too. In Wolf year, the last two Tiger dens have at least tripled in size, and I expect the same next year. A lot of parents seem to write off Tiger year as "too much work" due to the adult partner set-up, I think, but then join in Wolf year.

I've posted this before, but I will again. A two boy den can do a ton of stuff that is more difficult to arrange/schedule with multiple parents. With only two family's schedules to work around, you have a lot more leeway for scheduling go see-its and field trips. You can really zero in the program to meet the interests of your boys. You can do more complicated hands-on projects since it is easier to work with a fewer amount of boys. For example, we did marshmallow cookers, which consist of little wooden platforms with a hole to hold a candle. You roast marshmallows on the candle. We wouldn't have done this project with a full den of 8 Tigers because of the heightened chaos level and chance for injury with a lot of small boys in one room. With two boys, the energy level is lower so we could do projects like this with much less risk.

As long as you have two boys, you have the makings for a great den. It all depends on the attitude of the leader, because the boys will follow the leader's lead, naturally. Of course, you want to keep recruiting through the year, but don't write off this year just because the den is small.

I don't think there is an actual written rule, but it really is best to split a large group into smaller groups in my experience, and for several reasons. First, boys at this age feed off each other. One kid having one of those days causes most of the kids to go off the wall. Manageable when you have six boys, not so much with 12 boys. Smaller groups just work best for most of the activities. Also, while it's great that parents want to help, one person is going to still get stuck with the vast majority of the planning and record keeping. Not so bad for a few boys, awful if you have a lot.

With numbers that large, you will end up with frustrated parents and scouts as everyone tries to coordinate, figure out whats going on, and get the attention of the leader. Most large dens I've seen are only down to a couple kids by the end of the year because most drop due to this frustration. You also end up with a very burnt out leader.

If you get all the boys you think you might, you're going to end up with close to 16 boys. That's nearly a full classroom of rowdy, excited boys and their parents. Honestly, that's almost three dens worth of boys. The optimum den size is between 6 and 8, and 8 is pushing it. If parents are willing to step up and help out one leader, it shouldn't be a stretch to find another den leader. I also wouldn't keep the Catholic boys separate, but integrate the two groups together then split the dens, but that's just me.

The way we handle it is have a couple den meetings with the existing leadership and the great big group of boys. Parents are asked to attend. By the second meeting, the den leader has a good idea of who can be a good leader and has the time to run the second den, and we proceed with splitting it off. The current den leader also gets an idea during these larger meetings of which boys work well together and which would best be separated into different dens, which helps too.

We've done a similar soup on a campout. It became more of a casserole because of the amount of noodles brought but the boys had fun with it.

One word of caution -- assign each den a theme item, such as tigers root vegetable, wolves non-root veggies, bears meat or protein (like beans), and Webelos grains and starch. Otherwise, you may end up with a lot of carrots, or like us, noodles and nothing else!

Yeah, that's the rub, for Tigers it doesn't appear there is the parent leeway as there is in later ranks. This child has a winter birthday, so he'll turn 7 three months into the start of program year, and could probably join then. Not too big a deal, but I'd hate for him to feel like he has to catch up with the boys who started out the year. Maturity-wise, the parents think he's ready (I concur with their choice. I know the boy fairly well). He isn't being held back for behavioral/academic reasons, not that it matters when you follow the letter of the membership requirements.

I know this should be straight forward, but I could use some feedback. We have a prospective Tiger Cub who is age 6 but was held back to repeat kindergarten. I know the Tiger requirements are age 7 or completed kindergarten. All his friends are going into first grade and becoming new Tigers. (For example, my son is actually a month younger than this boy, but qualifies as a Tiger since he completed kindergarten). My guess is the poor kid has to wait, but I just wanted to see what the great minds here thought.

Now, I know in later grades if the boy is held back he still advances with the other boys. For example, an 7 yr old Wolf held back to repeat second grade would still advance up with the other boys to Bear. Does this go for kindergarten, too? He went to kindergarten, then was held back. Is this situation any different than an older boy who was held back? He isn't being held back for academic reasons, but for a mild handicap that the parents and school have decided can be better addressed by repeating the half-day kindergarten year.

On a completely different note, is national aware that the ages don't line up with the grades? Everywhere I have lived, most 1rst graders are 6 years old, and turn seven at some point during the school year. They aren't 7 when they become a Tiger. Heck, a few with late summer birthdays don't turn 7 until after they have graduated to Wolf!

I don't know. I backpack (outside of scouts, since I'm at cub level car camping with the boys right now!) I've traipsed all over the New Mexico and Colorado back country. I'm all for skipping out on the Mountain House food, fancy tents and sleeping bags (at least for 3-season camping), and high tech water bottles.

But some of the new gear shouldn't be shunned. A good water filter is a must, unless you want to pack in your weight in water or chance giardia or worse. I'm also a proponent of a good lightweight backpacking stove. Too many forest fires start because of irresponsible cooking fires or methods. While a good stove doesn't solve stupid, it can help prevent some fires. I've worked some replanting crews after bad fires, and it's painful to think that someone's urge for flame-baked s'mores caused so much destruction. That being said, I use a 15 year old MSR Whisperlite stove and love the thing. Any type of fuel, weighs next to nothing, and I can fix the thing myself with a pocketknife.

I agree that you can't do the same thing every year, and that is one of the most difficult parts. A great idea is only great the first couple of times, but oh, those great ideas are sometimes so hard to come by!

I found 83Eagle's comment interesting over on the other thread, about the difficulty to design pack activities that interest both 6 year old Tigers and 10 year old Webelos. Personally, I haven't run into much of an issue with it. We're a smaller pack (around 25 boys), so maybe that's why. Maybe it's easier to know the boys' individually and have a good grasp on what will excite them when there are fewer kids.

So, in the interest of sharing ideas, I was wondering what other packs have discovered that work well for all ages. We have a pack activity monthly outside of the pack meeting.

I'll start by listing a couple pack activities and pack meeting things that are a hit with all ages.

Activities

1) Stomp rockets. Tigers (and most Wolves) get a lot of help building their rocket from their parents, while most Bears and Webelos build their own. The older boys get especially creative with the design. All ages-- including adults, get a huge kick out of launching them.

2) Fishing. Always a hit, though a few boys get a bit squeamish when they actually catch one. Usually the older ones

3) Astronomy night. We have a local astronomy club that will take out packs to see the stars through their big telescopes. The club members are really good at talking to the boys at their individual level, so the older boys get to see/understand more than the younger boys.

Pack Meetings:

1)Gingerbread houses. Prebuilt gingerbread houses the dens decorate during the meeting are popular. Tigers go crazy with the frosting and candy; Webelos go crazy with in depth designs and additions.

2)Competitions of any type, but especially relays. The t-shirt relay is a hit, and actually gets more challenging for older boys since they are bigger and the shirt isn't as loose on them. http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/game/game-524.asp

3)Building contests, as dens or individually. Legos are always popular, as are toothpicks and marshmallows. Naturally, the older boys come up with more complex designs, but the creativity of the younger boys is pretty impressive, too.