rmeints
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Posts posted by rmeints
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On 11/7/2022 at 12:58 PM, Engines said:
Any recommendations on sourcing for the uniforms and buttons?
There are a number of online retailers that can sell you reproduction tunics (the coat) and breeches (the pants). As has been said previously, the uniforms are expensive to most people's budgets. My troop turned 100 in 2017. I actually had been working on a "centennial" uniform for a few years prior to that. Here's me wearing it back in 2017, flooded by a picture of the tunic closer up.
I recommend the US army M1912 tunic in the summer cotton fabric instead of the more expensive, heavier, and probably scratchier wool fabric. The tunic and breeches will probably cost about $350 as a set. To go along with that you'll probably want to purchase a $25 pair of wool puttees to wrap around your legs from your boots up to just below your knees. I am wearing them in the first picture. Most companies that sell reproduction uniforms can tailor the tunic and breeches to your specific measurements. In addition, the one thing you will want them to not include are the epaulets. BSA tunics didn't have them. All that gets you though is the uniform without any of the insignia. This is where you will either hate or love hunting down the patches and brass items.
I chose to go with a tunic as worn by a scoutmaster in 1917. On the left-side sleeve are 24 teens era type A square merit badges. These are roughly equivalent to what I personally earned when I was a scout in the 1980s. You can buy many of them on eBay in very decent condition for about $5-$10 each, at least for the common ones. The trick is getting someone who can sew each of them onto the sleeve. Above the merit badges is an Eagle patrol ribbon. Above the top left pocket is the rare two line Boy Scouts of America logo patch used for a few years in the teens. The single line version is more common, but wasn't used until the end of the decade. The shield pin on the pocket flap below it is a Liberty Loan sales pin, which many scouts participated in during WW1. On the collar are the brass BSA pin and a "5" unit numeral pin. All of the buttons are genuine BSA brass and not too difficult to get. They are easily removable too. That's my Eagle Scout medal next to the Life and Star patches above the right side upper pocket. On the upper right pocket flap is another Liberty Loan sales medal. On the right side sleeve from the top going down is a unit number patch, a Scoutmaster patch, a bugler patch and then a 5 year veteran patch. That's a BSA brass whistle on the cord. This tunic photo is from about 2015, when I wanted to wear to my Troop 5 100th year anniversary celebration. Most units didn't wear both the collar brass numeral and the unit numeral patch on the shoulder, but I thought it made the tunic all the more interesting. Not all of the things on the tunic are essential, and many scouts wore far fewer patches on their uniform. The collar brass, a few merit badges, a rank patch, and the BSA logo patch being the most common. I wear this uniform on special occasions, maybe 3-4 times per year. I wore it more often during the BSA Centennial year, as well as when I was more actively doing Friends of Scouting presentations. Now I mainly wear it to Troop Court of Honor ceremonies or special history talks. In short, it was fun to put together for a sentimental collector like me, but it wasn't cheap, and it took me a fair bit of time to track down and purchase all the patches, none of which are available as reproductions.
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On 5/12/2018 at 12:51 AM, ParkMan said:
Interesting stats. Thanks a lot for sharing them.
In addition to their only being 23, I have to imagine that it wasn't quite the big deal back then. It was still a pretty new program gaining traction.
Becoming the first Eagle Scout was absolutely a big deal. When Arthur Eldred was announced as the first official Eagle Scout there were letters of protest from at least two other scouts (who ended up being the second and third official Eagles). It made national news. Arthur's Eagle Board of Review was conducted by James E. West, Dan Beard, Ernest Seton Thompson, and Lord Baden-Powell himself, who just happened to be in New York as part of a nationwide speaking tour. Arthur passed with flying colors, but he was put through his paces for several hours, including having to start a fire with a bow and two pieces of wood.
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Ornithology/Bird Study used the same "white bird" design from 1914-1968.
It's not an online resource, but Fred Duersch's book, Merit Badge Field Guide has pictures of all the merit badges (other than Invention) up through 2008, with numbers awarded and a fair bit of history thrown in. Most collectors call the square ones "Type A", although once you mention "square" in describing them most people will know exactly what you mean.
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Stosh (jblake47) raises some interesting points. I am not trying to start an argument by pointing out there are two (or more) sides to this.
Yes, the Old World does operate on different standards for some things, including doing exactly what Stosh says the Colonials do: The Europeans went around the world bringing all manner of other country's traditions and dress back home. The English in particular did this with gusto, with many things from Egypt, India, and South Africa to name a few. This even applies to woodbadge itself. The original woodbadge beads were from a Zulu leader's necklace. Basically they are something that only a Zulu (or at least African) chief would wear. I am pretty sure the chief would have not allowed any of his "common villagers" to wear them. Yes, woodbadgers have earned them, but not by any Zulu's standards. Regardless, I am comfortable wearing them now that I have completed woodbadge, and I am sure many Zulus have no problem with how the beads are used in Scouting either.
Scouting teaches us to embrace the diversity of all manner of cultures, etc. as part of the spirit of world scouting. I believe that works both ways to a certain degree. We respect them, and they respect us, hopefully as we head towards no longer needing to look at things from a "them" and "us" perspective. Claiming a cultural monopoly on item X, Y, or Z, based on ethnic/cultural origin does not build bridges. Bringing honor into question over it will probably only turn up the heat on the issue.
I don't mind if someone (including a foreigner) makes a dress that uses the pattern of an American flag. People in the US do that with all manner of items for use around the 4th of July. Making one specifically out of an actual flag seems a bit of a waste to me since the cloth is readily available, but I've seen it done for clothing worn by all manner of supporters of various world cup (soccer) teams. You see that at the Olympics too. I see loads of college football fans wear a school's colors, and I don't feel they lack honor for wearing them if they didn't specifically attend that school.
As for Sons of the Union, I was happy to see that they allow "associate" members, i.e. you can be a member as long as you abide by their other rules of membership, regardless of being able to prove you are descended from a Union Soldier.
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Sorry, meant to say "Stosh"...
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Josh,
The buttons on my cotton tunic are on metal loops so they are removable.
Did you buy one of the shirts?
Rick
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I attended the Woodbadge for the 21st century course in the fall of 2008 (C60-08). I completed my tickets a little over a year later. I have been a Tigercub Den Leader and have just finished my second year as Cubmaster. I was also in both cub scouts and boy scouts as a youth, all the way through to earning Eagle. By profession I am a Corporate Training manager.
Now that you know my background, here are the questions I ask people who are considering if Woodbadge is for them:
1. Are you a registered adult scout leader?
2. Do you enjoy the time you spend on scouting?
3. Do you want to contribute more to the scouting programs you participate in?
4. Do you want to build a stronger network of other experienced scout leaders?
5. Do you want to improve your communication, planning, and leadership skills?
6. Can you attend two long weekends of training in a camping environment?
7. Do you enjoy learning by doing?
Score 1 point for each "Yes" answer. If you scored 2 or more points, Woodbadge is for you. :-)
The last question is perhaps the most important one. Woodbadge is all about learning by doing. It is not a passive experience comprised of classroom lectures or corporate type seminars. You camp and cook as a patrol. You wear the uniform, participate in campfires, sing songs, attend ceremonies, make patrol spirit items, develop training materials, and deliver presentations. After the course is done you have 5 "tickets" to complete. These are 5 things you want to improve that are related to your primary registered position in scouting. It doesn't really matter what that position is, be it Scoutmaster, Cubmaster, Venture Crew Advisor, Den Leader, Committee Member, etc. Every unit has numerous things that could benefit from improvement. Woodbadge provides you with a toolset and the motivation to do just that improve the scouting experience for the youth we serve.
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I received my "1912" uniform in the mail from schipperfabrik. They did an awesome job and it fits me perfectly.
The buttons used on the shirts and jackets in the teens and 20s were painted metal. They had loops on the back so you can remove the buttons to make it possible to wash the jacket.
Finding the smaller 5/8" buttons for the pockets was very easy. Finding the 5 larger 3/4" buttons that button up the jacket is more troublesome.
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The buttons were painted. Congrats on getting the uniform.
Where did you get it from?
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The two best places I have found to get a reproduction scout uniform from the teens are:
http://www.schipperfabrik.com/ami_uniforms.html (1912 cotton tunic and breeches for $224.95
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http://www.greatwar.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=42
Every other place I have found is overseas, which means more expensive shipping and such.
Buying a reproduction WW1 US Army tunic does mean you have to ask for a few modifications if you want a more exact match to what Scouts actually wore. Both of the above companies are willing to leave off the epaulets, and to either leave off the US army buttons or sew on buttons you provide.
As for me, I am having them sew on original BSA "Be Prepared" brass buttons that I bought on ebay and another online seller. You will need 4 of the smaller sized buttons for the 4 pockets and 5 larger sized ones for buttoning up the tunic. I got all 9 with a few spares for about $30. That sounds reasonable for vintage brass buttons that are at least 80 years old.
Getting a reproduction outfit is going to set me back over $300, which doesn't include any patches, collar brass, shoes, etc. The least expensive route would be to buy an actual vintage US Army WW1 tunic and switch the buttons yourself, but I'd rather get one tailored to fit me. Both of the above companies ask for a detailed set of your measurements so the uniform will fit you very well. This is not buying something off of a rack.
I went with cotton fabric instead of wool because it is about half the price of wool and because what I have been told is that Scouts wore cotton more often than wool.
Mitch Reis (www.mitchreis.com) was helpful, and I recommend his books on uniforms and such.
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Wood badge comes down to attending the training sessions (two weekends or a long single week, depending on the schedule) and then completing your 5 ticket items.
My wood badge course didn't have any "tests" in it, so by the usual definition of "fail" you can't fail. You can "fail" to earn the physical wood beads if you don't complete your ticket items.
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The Tiger Cub Program has gone through some revisions for achievemnet over the last few years, and the Tiger Cub book doesn't seem to have been completely reviewed and edited to catch all of the references on sequence and such.
The way I have been teaching it to Den Leaders is:
1. Complete the three requirements to get their Tiger Cub Immediate Recognition Emblem.
2. Complete the remaining 5 requirements to get their Bobcat Badge.
3. Complete the 15 requirements for the Tiger Cub Rank Badge.
One of the nice things in the above order of sequence is that the 3 requirements to get the immediate recognition emblem are the same as 3 of the 8 Bobcat requirements. Thus, earning the emblem gets you almost halfway to Bobcat. Plus, they can work on and get Tiger Track beads for Tiger Rank while working on their Bobcat.
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I believe that the Tiger Cub Handbook on page 18 states it fairly clearly:
"The advancement requirements are written in such a way as to give you room to customize activities for your boy and your den. There are no performance requirements for Tiger Cubs. Boys should never be tested or placed in a position where they will not be successful. Simply participating in the activities and doing his best constitutes completion."
They italicized the last sentence for emphasis.
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Hello Goose,
Most importantly, hang in there. Tiger Cubs is the first year of the cub scouting program and that means that most of the tiger cub parents are beginners too. I just ran the Tiger Cub Den leader session breakout at our District's Cub Scout Leader training day. Here are the main things I emphasised:
1. Set Adult Partner Expectations - The Tiger program states right up front that each boy should be accompanied by an adult partner, but that means more than just showing up. It means that each of those partners will be assisting you in running the program. As soon as possible I would distribute a parent talent survey (available online) to find out more about each adult and what they are interested in and can help run. I often refer to each of the adult partners as the assistant den leaders. To help them get involved, it often works best to assign them something small and achievable they can do at an upcoming den meeting. Once they see it isn't that tough, they are all the more likely to keep doing bigger and better things at den meetings.
2. Make sure they have the right tools - In particular, each adult partner has to have the Tiger Cub Handbook. That's $5. If possible, have them pick up a copy of Cub Scout Program Helps for 2008-2009. That's $4. If money is tight you can always just have two copies (one for you) and one for the adult partners to pass around based on who has been assigned to help at the next den meeting.
3. Relax about the Pace - There are three main things Tiger Cubs work on: Earning the Tiger Cub Immediate Recognition Emblem, Earning their Bobcat Badge, and then earning their Tiger Cub Badge. The Immediate Recognition kits come with enough emblems and beads for 5 boys, so the cost is $1 per boy. The three requirements to earn it are knowing the cub scout motto, which they can learn with their adult partner, knowing the cub scout sign, and knowing the cub scout salute, which is easy to teach while one of the adult partners leads them in the pledge of allegiance. The Bobcat Badge has 8 requirements, but three of those are done as part of getting the immediate recognition emblem. Of those 5 remaining Bobcat requirements, get the adult partners working on the "what if" situations outlined at the beginning pages of the Tiger Cub handbook. Lastly, The Tiger Cub badge has 15 requirements. Five are family related, Five are den related, and Five are Go-See-Its. Since you want to have the boys earn the Tiger Cub badge by your Blue and Gold banquet (which is great), that means you'll have about 5 months to complete the 15 requirements. Eevry few weeks assign the parents one of the "do it at home" family activities, like the home fire drill, listening at dinner, or doing a chore around the house, and then take a few minutes at an upcoming den meeting to have them chat as a group about the experience. As Den leader, what you'll need to probably take more of a lead on are the den activities and go-see-its, at least until the parents get more involved in running those things. Most of those involve very little financial investment, just some time and energy. We found the go-see-its to take a little more prep, since going to a fire station or a radio station is not something you do on the spur of the moment.
4. Get some help from the Pack - Your cubmaster and pack committee should be able to lend some help to get things started. One of them may be able to help talk to the tiger cub adult partners or run the first den meeting.
PS: If you haven't done so yet, attend Cub Scout Leader Training for your position. While I'm sure you have already been through New leader Essentials and have no reason to repeat that part of the course, the Den Leader portion of the training I strongly recommend.
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As for me, I wear three knots: Arrow of Light, Youth Religious, and Eagle Scout. Thus far, like wearing my jamboree patch, they have sparked conversations with other scout leaders, but most importantly with the youth I serve. I find it helps frame the "bigger picture" of what scouting is all about. How Scouting's values are carried with you throughout your life. I am a cub scout leader presently, and while I value instant recognition for each boy's achievements, I also want them getting a glimpse of the longer term and cub scouting's highest award - The Arrow of Light - and how even adults get to wear it on their uniform if they earned it as a youth.
The Youth religious knot also has deep meaning. There are many in scouting who back away from wanting to discuss religious things for fear of the reaction they may get from those they are talking with. I want to remind the boys that religion is a deep rooted part of scouting, and achievements related to it are something to be proud of, even in our very secular society.
I suppose the Eagle scout knot is something I wear as a matter of personal pride right now. I mainly interact with cub scouts and cub scout leaders. Even so, it reminds me that most Boy Scouts get their start in the Cub Scout program, and the two are tied together now far more than when I went through both programs in the 70s and 80s as a youth.
Being a bit of a uniform and patch lover, I'm sure I'll wear whatever other knots I may get in the future. Like some others, I may have one of my two class-A shirts with just the three knots mentioned above and wear more knots on just the second shirt for rarer occasions.
Balancing humility and pride is always a challenge, especially when trying to set a good example.
Rick
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I used to be an Eagle
A good old Eagle too
And now Im finished Eagling
I dont know what to do.
Im growing OLD and feeble
And I can Soar no more
So Im going to work my ticket if I can.
Back to Gilwell; happy land.
Im going to work my ticket if I can.
Rick
Eagle Patrol Leader
C-60-08
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John-in-KC said: "If second weekend is fast pace, I'd hate to think how you'd do in one of the units I serve or in my day job."
I'm not trying to start an argument, but you seem to be trying to. I'm trying to be both Courteous and Kind in my posts here, but you seem to be trying to insult me in return. I've got three young children, manage a small IT firm, am a cubmaster for a new Pack, and run a side business as well. I have some experience in what a fast pace is like. The feedback on feeling rushed was not just my own, but common amongst the many other attendees I chatted with after the first weekend. We stayed in cabins the first weekend, but we did have a regular dedicated patrol site where we cooked most of our own patrol's meals after the first day.
I can't comment on how other wood badge courses are run or should be run, since this was the first and only one I have attended. I enjoyed the training and the overall experience. I'd recommend it to other scout leaders who want to sharpen their leadership skills and deepen their commitment to serving youth through the Boy Scouts.
YiS,
Rick
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John-in-KC said "FAST PACE??? SECOND WEEKEND? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????!!!!???"
Please, I'd prefer that you not use all caps, since it usually gets interpreted as anger, and/or yelling. I'm not implying that you are either of those, but just seeing a text message makes it very difficult to know.
My wood badge course was divided over two weekends instead of a single week.
Perhaps that forced them to pick up the pace a bit. The general feedback from most of the patrols was that we had very little down time, and were pretty much on the go from 6am until 11pm at night. It may be a matter of perspective, but most people consider that a long day of events, where you are often doing something different every hour or two, with few breaks, thus "fast paced". I can't remember anyone in the 40+ wood badge students saying they felt it was laid back.
Like your group, we had a blast as well. We had our duty roster, meal plans, etc. too. Most of us had a decent amount of camping experience, but nothing extraordinary. Due to the way our two weekends were set up, we ended up preparing most of our meals, about 12 in total (4 each of breakfast, lunch, and dinner). On the first weekend we were provided with the food to prepare from our QM, and on the second weekend we planned/brought/cooked our own menu of meals.
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Having just completed the wood badge course, here is what I feel would have helped some of the participants focus on what is "unique" for the course (which was held over two three-day weekends:
Knowing the basics of backpacking, camping, and outdoor cooking.
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While some participants had very little previous experience with
them they still loved the course, but they did have to spend
more of their time doing them. That meant less time for other
things and having to scramble more to keep up with the fast
pace of each day.
Knowing more about the Boy Scout program:
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A visit or two to a boy scout troop, to see the patrol method,
how they operate, etc. would help. You can get by without that
kind of knowledge, but it does mean working harder to keep up with
what other people know well.
I used to be an Eagle, a good old Eagle too....
C-60-08
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I was fortunate enough to have lived near London (Docklands and Romford) for 7 years, from 1995 to 2002. There are no end of things to see, depending on what you enjoy.
Before I first went I got the "let's Go London" guide and it served me well on planning out some of the more touristy sites to visit. Once I got to London, the magazine "Time Out: London" really was great for what was happening in the next week or so.
To get a good sense of what is on offer, take the double decker red bus tour, which is great for getting you around all the major London attractions, and lets you get on and off all you want for 24 hours.
The Tower of London is great, but the crown jewels exhibit is often not worth the wait.
The National Gallery and the Portrait galleries are epic if you like art.
The British Museum is a must for Historians and Archeology fans.
The Victoria and Albert Museum is wonderful for British history.
The Museum of London is great for, well, the histroy of London.
If you like Cathedrals, go to Saint Pauls, and Westminster Abbey.
The HMS Belfast is great if you like WWII warships.
The London Eye is a big Ferris Wheel type contraption that offers only stunning views.
The Globe Theatre is the best place to see a Shakespearean play as intended.
There are loads of "Broadway" productions in the West End.
The only potential downsides are EVERYTHING is expensive, you have to like big cities, and you have to be OK with taking public transport (which is safe and efficient enough).
As they say, if you tire of London, you have tired of life.
Enjoy your visit,
Rick
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If you want to be surprised by something I find it is far easier to just not read about it than try to ban or delete discussion about it. It sometimes helps if people post a heading with "spoiler" in it sometimes, which is what is often done with book or movie reviews posted on the net. As for the OA, if you look around enough on the web you will find much of their "secret" info as well.
As a trainer, I have seen that surprising people only works in a few situations, and can often lead to students feeling unfairly tricked if not carefully done. I just got back from my first weekend of Woodbadge, which included the "Win all YOU can" game. I chose not to read up on it before going. The biggest lesson I learned had to do with experiencing first hand how naturally non-competitive Scout Leaders were when it was a contest that meant people could lose if you wanted to win more.
Yours in scouting,
Rick
Back to the doughboy uniforms?
in Uniforms
Posted
The first manufacturer of the BSA uniform in 1910 was the Sigmund Eisner company in Red Bank New Jersey. They were a major supplier of uniforms to the US military and the early BSA uniforms made by them were derived from them. After about 1912 the collar of the BSA tunic was switched from the straight collar with holes for insignia to the "stand and fall" collar that became ubiquitous for WW1 era scouts. The main difference was that the BSA uniforms never had epaulettes in the early years. Those got added much later.