belayer_StLouis

Back to the original question; are there any other lodges where the unit leader vetoes a scout's election to the OA after the election besides the Shawnee and Anpetuwe lodges in St. Louis? I would imagine that not certifying a scout as eligible before the election would be a pretty tough thing for a unit leader to do since the kids know who is and who isn't eligible. Not that it counts for much but I was lodge chief for Shawnee back in the 60's and asking a unit leader to be exposed to trouble with the unit and its parents would be tougher than what I think we pay a unit leader for. In Shawnee a unit leader may veto a scout after the election but no other scout takes his place. I'm sorry that I don't know the current ratios and quota system - its changed a zillion times since 64, but if a unit elects 5, and the leader rejects one the unit only gets to have 4 called out. The names of the elected are turned in so that subs can't be called out in place of the unit leader rejected scout. The scouts, not the leaders, elect the candidates and the lodge does not put the unit leader on the spot by asking them to publicly declare who has scout spirit and who was left off the ballot - candidates submitted meet the rank, time and days and nights requirements. No scouts are told that someone was vetoed but if the scouts where presented with approved candidates (which would include scout spirit, etc)and they saw that someone was left off the list all would know that the SM rejected someone. A pretty humiliating thing for the kid also, glad that we don't follow that procedure. I know that veto process has been in place since at least 1961 - seems to work, no need to fix. Shawnee usually inducts 800 to 1000 candidates a year and a very small handful of kids are rejected by unti leaders after the election. I think humilitating a kid and putting a unit leader up to grieve from parents is not a positive idea.

Back to the original question; are there any other lodges where the unit leader vetoes a scout's election to the OA after the election besides the Shawnee and Anpetuwe lodges in St. Louis? I would imagine that not certifying a scout as eligible before the election would be a pretty tough thing for a unit leader to do since the kids know who is and who isn't eligible. Not that it counts for much but I was lodge chief for Shawnee back in the 60's and asking a unit leader to be exposed to trouble with the unit and its parents would be tougher than what I think we pay a unit leader for. In Shawnee a unit leader may veto a scout after the election but no other scout takes his place. I'm sorry that I don't know the current ratios and quota system - its changed a zillion times since 64, but if a unit elects 5, and the leader rejects one the unit only gets to have 4 called out. The names of the elected are turned in so that subs can't be called out in place of the unit leader rejected scout. The scouts, not the leaders, elect the candidates and the lodge does not put the unit leader on the spot by asking them to publicly declare who has scout spirit and who was left off the ballot - candidates submitted meet the rank, time and days and nights requirements. No scouts are told that someone was vetoed but if the scouts where presented with approved candidates (which would include scout spirit, etc)and they saw that someone was left off the list all would know that the SM rejected someone. A pretty humiliating thing for the kid also, glad that we don't follow that procedure. I know that veto process has been in place since at least 1961 - seems to work, no need to fix. Shawnee usually inducts 800 to 1000 candidates a year and a very small handful of kids are rejected by unti leaders after the election. I think humilitating a kid and putting a unit leader up to grieve from parents is not a positive idea.

Back to the original question; are there any other lodges where the unit leader vetoes a scout's election to the OA after the election besides the Shawnee and Anpetuwe lodges in St. Louis? I would imagine that not certifying a scout as eligible before the election would be a pretty tough thing for a unit leader to do since the kids know who is and who isn't eligible. Not that it counts for much but I was lodge chief for Shawnee back in the 60's and asking a unit leader to be exposed to trouble with the unit and its parents would be tougher than what I think we pay a unit leader for. In Shawnee a unit leader may veto a scout after the election but no other scout takes his place. I'm sorry that I don't know the current ratios and quota system - its changed a zillion times since 64, but if a unit elects 5, and the leader rejects one the unit only gets to have 4 called out. The names of the elected are turned in so that subs can't be called out in place of the unit leader rejected scout. The scouts, not the leaders, elect the candidates and the lodge does not put the unit leader on the spot by asking them to publicly declare who has scout spirit and who was left off the ballot - candidates submitted meet the rank, time and days and nights requirements. No scouts are told that someone was vetoed but if the scouts where presented with approved candidates (which would include scout spirit, etc)and they saw that someone was left off the list all would know that the SM rejected someone. A pretty humiliating thing for the kid also, glad that we don't follow that procedure. I know that veto process has been in place since at least 1961 - seems to work, no need to fix. Shawnee usually inducts 800 to 1000 candidates a year and a very small handful of kids are rejected by unti leaders after the election. I think humilitating a kid and putting a unit leader up to grieve from parents is not a positive idea.

When looking at sleeping bags be sure to "try" them on before buying. I know it sounds goofy but there is no standard for measuring the length and width. If you can't zip it closed when you're inside or it somehow doesn't fit look at another bag - there are wide variations in shape also. Also be aware that temp ratings are based on: being out of the wind, sleeping on insulated ground pad, wearing a layer of clothes. And some folks sleep cold, some can't stand the hood of a mummy. The most efficient shape is the mummy (your body isn't heating up the dead space in a rectangular bag. When you say 3 season be careful; some folks would call a 0-15 degree bag a winter bag. I always tell folks to lay on the floor at a retailer and try them on and that if you camp year around you need more than 1 bag. How many?, how many jackets and weights of jackets do you own?

A note about what COPE and Climbing Directors do and National Camping School. It is true that NCS used to be only for summer camp leadership but COPE and Climbing are year around programs now and most folks who attend those sections are not just summer camp. We have never taught COPE or Climbing Directors, nor is a mention made of it in the staff sylabus, anything about Pioneering or Pioneering projects. It certainly isn't anything that comes under the heading of COPE; I think that started just to give guys a reference about belaying and spotting. If your council makes the summer COPE or Climbing Director pass on knowledge about spotting or belaying that sounds OK, everybody has to learn from someone.

The Swift Base, S bar F Scout Ranch, of the Greater St. Louis Area Council has had an Explorer/Venture Base since 1966. There are 4 to 6 weeks of Venture program only during the summer. Visit stlbsa.org and check out the Swift Base in the Camping section. This camp attracts crews from around the Midwest; has challenge course, climbing on real rock, horses, water skiing, mountain biking. Program is for high school Venture members. Pretty dynamic program.

I've been a Backpacking MB couns. since the merit badge started. I don't mean to be a smart aleck but the merit badge book has a whole page dedicated to suggestions called "Grocery Store Foods". The book is actually a pretty good primer (it ain't perfect by far). Have the scout start researching the subject on line and he'll be bombarded with info.

The request for audit might just have been a membership audit request. As a DE for 8 years back in the 70's and 80's the commissioner staff did these annually. It is simply an audit checking who is registered with a unit and who a unit thinks is registered. The Commissioner would usually find one or two kids and adults whose membership application hadn't been turned in or filled out and their names weren't on the charter at every untit. It wasn't a painful process and could be done over the phone with the unit's membership chair or committee chair.

The request for audit might just have been a membership audit request. As a DE for 8 years back in the 70's and 80's the commissioner staff did these annually. It is simply an audit checking who is registered with a unit and who a unit thinks is registered. The Commissioner would usually find one or two kids and adults whose membership application hadn't been turned in or filled out and their names weren't on the charter at every untit. It wasn't a painful process and could be done over the phone with the unit's membership chair or committee chair.

The request for audit might just have been a membership audit request. As a DE for 8 years back in the 70's and 80's the commissioner staff did these annually. It is simply an audit checking who is registered with a unit and who a unit thinks is registered. The Commissioner would usually find one or two kids and adults whose membership application hadn't been turned in or filled out and their names weren't on the charter at every untit. It wasn't a painful process and could be done over the phone with the unit's membership chair or committee chair.

JohninKC,

This isn't a discussion about which lodge is stronger but about honor camping groups and what they do for council camping and Boy Scout programs. I would guess the National office will make us merge the two lodges in the Greater St. Louis Area Council (the result of the merger of 3 councils)when they include the MOS decorations in the Uniform Guide of the BSA.

To Eagledad;

The Missouri councils don't all have MOS and I think you missed my point about council strength and traditions. In St. Louis we have a very strong OA program (and would go a bit nuts if it was adult run like MOS) and both KC and St.L have great camp attendance, high advancement, super attendance at High Adventure programs. I think no matter what kind of camping honor program a council has its the strength of the council and its hard work to deliver quality camping programs that makes it all happen. Many councils have non-OA programs and many councils have OA and many them don't deliver great program; I don't think its the honor camper programs I think its the strength and traditions of those councils. Honor socities are after all a secondary thing; they are the tail, not the dog.

MOS works for the guys in KC but the other big, very tradtional council in Missouri does not have dining halls nor MOS. We also have very large % of scouts in camp, one of the largest, if not largest OA Lodge in the country, and our main scout camp has had patrol cooking since 1966. I have atttended or staffed camp schools several times since 72 so I've spent lots of times with guys from KC. I think the strong and long traditions of MOS and the OA in those councils help them with camp attendance and work for them. The whole adult run thing in MOS does baffle me but I know that MOS and the OA all got started around the same time in the 20's so why not let it be. I do always ask why we need OA and the various honor camping programs in the same council; maybe we should spend less time honoring each other and more time delivering program to kids.

Further note about externals and internals and some of the furhter posting:

I was hoping someone wouldn't mention the Alice packs; always felt sorry for grunts. Those are terrible and poorly designed - the load pulls away from the body instead of centering it over the hips and bringing the load closer to the body's center of balance. But it is good for humping large loads of lurps and ammo.

Bungee cords: don't use them on packs!! If you hike more than a mile or so you will notice that your tent or sleeping bag will start to have a motion of its own. Buy straps and cinch down the load to the pack- that applies to externals and internals. The elastic wears out, stretches out; I've got straps more than 25 years old and still work.

Loading stuff on outside of packs: Many internal users are the most guilty of walking with stuff strapped to outside and looking like whatever coming down the trail because they discover there isn't enough room in the pack. Much of that can be blamed on the fact that they (and many retail sales staff) don't understand that the cubic capacity of an internal includes the section where the sleeping bag has to be stuffed. Externals have a space, not included in the cubic capacity, where the bag/tent/pots/sleeping pad is attached. Many of internals have included lots of pockets on the outside, just like externals. A 3000 cubic inch external has more room than a 3000 cubic inch internal. If you look at many of the modern external and internal designs you will see that they borrow many of the design principles from each other like wrap-around waist belts, load lifters, compression straps and stablizer sheets and bars in internals that take the place of the external frame. Many of both type are very adjustable to fit varying torso lengths.

Torso length: if you visit a retailer and they don't determine your torso length and don't load the pack with 30 or pounds of weight before you try to test a pack - RUN. Even if a retailer doesn't know anything about modern external packs there are many good ones that know how to fit a pack to you. Many of the folks in retail have memories of the old externals when they were young and are mesmorized by the high tec wizardy and tecy names of all the parts in today's internals.

Remember that hiking is the real object, not buying gear. I have very experienced friends and trail mates who use terrible gear and have a great time - good for them!!

Further note about externals and internals and some of the furhter posting:

I was hoping someone wouldn't mention the Alice packs; always felt sorry for grunts. Those are terrible and poorly designed - the load pulls away from the body instead of centering it over the hips and bringing the load closer to the body's center of balance. But it is good for humping large loads of lurps and ammo.

Bungee cords: don't use them on packs!! If you hike more than a mile or so you will notice that your tent or sleeping bag will start to have a motion of its own. Buy straps and cinch down the load to the pack- that applies to externals and internals. The elastic wears out, stretches out; I've got straps more than 25 years old and still work.

Loading stuff on outside of packs: Many internal users are the most guilty of walking with stuff strapped to outside and looking like whatever coming down the trail because they discover there isn't enough room in the pack. Much of that can be blamed on the fact that they (and many retail sales staff) don't understand that the cubic capacity of an internal includes the section where the sleeping bag has to be stuffed. Externals have a space, not included in the cubic capacity, where the bag/tent/pots/sleeping pad is attached. Many of internals have included lots of pockets on the outside, just like externals. A 3000 cubic inch external has more room than a 3000 cubic inch internal. If you look at many of the modern external and internal designs you will see that they borrow many of the design principles from each other like wrap-around waist belts, load lifters, compression straps and stablizer sheets and bars in internals that take the place of the external frame. Many of both type are very adjustable to fit varying torso lengths.

Torso length: if you visit a retailer and they don't determine your torso length and don't load the pack with 30 or pounds of weight before you try to test a pack - RUN. Even if a retailer doesn't know anything about modern external packs there are many good ones that know how to fit a pack to you. Many of the folks in retail have memories of the old externals when they were young and are mesmorized by the high tec wizardy and tecy names of all the parts in today's internals.

Remember that hiking is the real object, not buying gear. I have very experienced friends and trail mates who use terrible gear and have a great time - good for them!!

Further note about externals and internals and some of the furhter posting:

I was hoping someone wouldn't mention the Alice packs; always felt sorry for grunts. Those are terrible and poorly designed - the load pulls away from the body instead of centering it over the hips and bringing the load closer to the body's center of balance. But it is good for humping large loads of lurps and ammo.

Bungee cords: don't use them on packs!! If you hike more than a mile or so you will notice that your tent or sleeping bag will start to have a motion of its own. Buy straps and cinch down the load to the pack- that applies to externals and internals. The elastic wears out, stretches out; I've got straps more than 25 years old and still work.

Loading stuff on outside of packs: Many internal users are the most guilty of walking with stuff strapped to outside and looking like whatever coming down the trail because they discover there isn't enough room in the pack. Much of that can be blamed on the fact that they (and many retail sales staff) don't understand that the cubic capacity of an internal includes the section where the sleeping bag has to be stuffed. Externals have a space, not included in the cubic capacity, where the bag/tent/pots/sleeping pad is attached. Many of internals have included lots of pockets on the outside, just like externals. A 3000 cubic inch external has more room than a 3000 cubic inch internal. If you look at many of the modern external and internal designs you will see that they borrow many of the design principles from each other like wrap-around waist belts, load lifters, compression straps and stablizer sheets and bars in internals that take the place of the external frame. Many of both type are very adjustable to fit varying torso lengths.

Torso length: if you visit a retailer and they don't determine your torso length and don't load the pack with 30 or pounds of weight before you try to test a pack - RUN. Even if a retailer doesn't know anything about modern external packs there are many good ones that know how to fit a pack to you. Many of the folks in retail have memories of the old externals when they were young and are mesmorized by the high tec wizardy and tecy names of all the parts in today's internals.

Remember that hiking is the real object, not buying gear. I have very experienced friends and trail mates who use terrible gear and have a great time - good for them!!

External vs Internal frame packs:

The observation about only 5% of Philmont hikers having internals is probably correct BUT I am would be willing to bet that only 5% of them know how to wear (use and adjust) an internal. While on the trail in 05 my crew, 9 out of 10 had externals, were amazed that so many of the internal users didn't know how to use their packs and how uncomfortable they all looked. Pack makers make what sells and retail employees only sell what they have. Most of them don't know enough (if anything) about externals. Externals are excellent for trail hiking and the modern externals do a great job and are far removed from the old externals just as the new internals are far removed from the old "rucksack" type internals. Internals are great for off trail hiking, scrambling, telemark skiing, putting under seats on Eurorail and storing in canoes. Internals take more skill to pack and adjust properly, and are hot on the trail. If you hike on developed trails like the beautiful trails at Philmont an external frame is the ticket. Kelty (whom I used to work for and have no relationship to) makes 2 great packs, Super Tioga and Trekker. Jansport makes externals also but I have no intimate knowledge of their models. Campmor does carry both brands and always seems to have good prices. Diamond Brand, Ashville NC, also does a nice job (look up them on the web). In an internal packing the load properly is part of what makes them work. Externals are more forgiving and much easier to load. People who know and understand the difference between internals and externals lament the fact that externals are harder to find and that retailers (with much ignorance)bad mouth them. The price difference is also major; externals don't take as many production steps and that accounts for the difference. I am a very experienced backpacker and used to do clinics around the country for my old employer and have both kinds (several sizes of internals)and they have their places but for trail hiking I would only use an external.

I have never attended or staffed a Nat. Camp School where they didn't give out the roster of both the attendees and faculty. Contact the Aquatics section leader and whoever the camp director was. Sometimes the CD is a person from the regional office and sometimes a local council exec is "recruited" to be the CD. They try to have a mix of old and new staff folks at these things

For those of you interested to see the different National Camp School courses and the entire US schedule go the Southern regions website. Look under Links I think. They are the only region that lists all that info. There are 4 regions but the 3 that have websites differ greatly in quality - the Southern region's is most helpful. My area, Central, does not have a website.

I looked at those pants and shirts at the local Scout Shop here in St. Louis. Let's call them insulation to be worn under the uniform pants and shirts. Seems like there are enough choices on the market already for this type of clothing.

The Southern Region has the list of camp schools for every Region. Double check the dates with the regional office. We are hosting a COPE/Climbing recertificaton event this April and the date is wrong on the national list of camp schools. Go to programs section on their site and the camp school list is labeled on that page when you open it.

We have made lots of small quantity special event patches for Pack and Troop using the patches shown in the official BSA catalog. Thought it was very easy.

The flag has not always been on the BSA uniform. It was not on the old versions and it wasn't on the new uniform that came out in the fall of 1980. As I said on an earlier post I'm not sure when it came with the patch but I suspect that it was done during a period of some turmoil and right after/during a presidential campaign. If your first "new style" uniform had the US flag sewn it wasn't a first edition. They are always tweeking the uniform, look at all the different versions of long pants.

I'm new to list but long time in Scouting. Camp Staff in 60's & 70's, DE in 70's & 80's after military. I have a trunk full of uniforms, old style, and several new ones. Some of my new uniforms are the original's from 1980 and they don't have the flag. I had one of the very first summer uniforms because I was a camp director that summer and the Scout Executive wanted us to wear them to show units in camp; Nat. Supply delivered them after camp. I still wear a couple of the ones w/o the flag. I don't remember exactly when the flag started coming on the uniform but I too thought that the BSA strip was enough and maybe only needed the flag when traveling for a world Scout tour or jamboree. I think the overuse of the flag on scout uniforms, police uniforms (like I wouldn't stop if a Canadian flag was on their uniform?), car bumpers and every piece of merchandise is demeaning and gives me some creepy memories. On the Philmont Forum we had a long discussion about crew leaders draping the flag on their packs on the trail; I think its degrading to the flag.

I am a true baby boomer, 1947 birth, so we grew up watching the old movies about Europe in WWII and I thought that flags festooned on everything that moved was part of propaganda. I agree with a previous post that the mindless daily repetition of the Pledge, and I would add the Anthem before a professional/college sporting event, doesn't add to anyone's understanding of their citizenship or its duties.

I had a Scouter question my lack of flag on uniform once, he didn't notice the Eagle and Silver Beaver knot, and he got a bit snitty. I asked if we could compare DD214's (Honorable Military Discharge paper)he stomped off. Not all of us need to wear our religous beliefs or patriotism on our sleeves and am sick of "patriotic" folks who believed in V. Nam (as long as their sons didn't go) and are all for a strong military as long as sons and daughters don't go. The strip says "Boy Scouts of America", good enough for me.

Off Belay