P_Swigs

I agree with Rooster. Having had success at the Pack level, you bring a certain amount of expertise to the situation, and as Committee Chair, you also bring an amount of clout. While nothing should be force-fed upon your small Troop, I think you have the background and authority to try and get things going a bit.

Find at least one other parent and work together with the Scoutmaster to pick up the pace and have a more structured program. Have you and the Scoutmaster gone through training? If not, go at the next opportunity. See if you can convince another parent to go as well. There are lots of resources to help you in your task.

Since you have a strong attachment and relationship to the Pack, work closely with the current 5th graders and their leaders/parents to encourage them to join the Troop. Then, make sure your Boy Scouts are organizing outings, participating in district and/or Council events and going to summer camp. The more solidarity you have throughout the Troop leadership and members, the stronger the Troop.

OGE,

I was afraid someone would reference the MICHIGAN Wolverines. After Saturday's gift at Wisconsin, their yell could be "whoopee!"

If it were a Badger patrol, I know what the yell would be... "Argghhhhhh!!!!!"

(Sorry for all the football references in this forum).

The Webelos activities in our Council (and our district) have been upgraded over the last year or so. Where we used to incorporate the 5th grade Webelos into the fall camporee, that has now changed. We have initiated the program to which Eisely alluded - a separate Webelos program in conjuction with the camporees. It's run as it's own event, with it's own patch, it's own staff, separate camping sites, etc. It has been pretty well accepted in it's first year and will likely get bigger and better. The Webelos and Boy Scouts did share the flag ceremonies and campfire program. It was a nice way of getting the Webelos (and adult leaders) a camping experience as well as a taste of Boy Scouting at our Scout camp.

The key to the decision was the fact that Camporees are BOY SCOUT events. The events and activities are set up for Boy Scout age boys. While there may be Webelos who are skilled enough to participate, generally speaking, they aren't ready for that level of competition and/or demonstration of skills. In addition, should the camporee have a merit badge theme, Webelos can't earn them anyway.

There is also the fact that older Scouts want camporees to offer challenges for them, as well as a chance to polish their patrol methods of camping and cooking. Having the Webelos in that setting lessens the chance of Webelos getting a positive experience.

With that said, the Troop and Webelos den should plan as many outings as feasible outside of a camporee where the Webelos are the focus of the weekend. The weekend can be one of camping or otherwise, but should include an opportunity for the Boy Scouts to demonstrate their leadership and Scouting skills in an effort to show the Webelos the fun of what lies ahead in Boy Scouts. The weekend can even be set up like a camporee in which the Webelos go from activity to activity learning Boy Scouting skills during the day. Activities like lashing, knots, flag etiquette, first aid, cooking, and the like are possible activities. The Webelos can also be incorporated into the Patrols to watch and participate in camp setup and cooking.

Webelos-to-Scout transition is an important time along the Scouting Trail. Having proper Webelos events with a Boy Scout Troop will ensure Boy Scouting continues to grow.

I'm not the owner of the Acme Judgement Company. By what I see here, some of you as individuals or as members of the unit committee sit around and pass judgement on the worthiness of each potential new leader based upon his being married to the woman in his house (the roles could be reversed also). If you can find that somewhere on the leader application, you've got different applications than I've seen.

Rooster, please don't start twisting the gay issue into this particular thread. They're not even in the same thought process. However, if you feel a man and woman living together outside of marraige is not acceptable, you're entitled to that opinion. For the record, I think a man and woman should be married in order to live in the same house. It's just that the BSA, as an organization, has not shown me that marraige is a requirement for leadership.

With that said, there are requirements for camping situations, etc. where unmarried couples may not share a tent, and there are probably other situations that may be similar. Those rules and regs must be followed. There may also be specific guidelines for leadership by your chartering organization, particularly if it's a church. I believe that to be within their jurisdiction. But when we sit back as adult leaders and pass judgement on others based upon our own personal viewpoints, I believe it causes much more harm than good.

Let me get this straight - a man with boys in Scouting is divorced or is a widower. He now lives with a woman and his boys, but is not married. Perhaps this man was a Scout as a boy, maybe even earned Eagle, but he's living with the woman out of wedlock. He fills out an adult leader application and everything looks good until someone points out that he's not married to the woman he's living with. You're going to tear up his application? Hmmmmmm...

I'm right there with you, Mike.

As to the original question, when do you wear the actual Eagle Award? Technically, one could wear it anytime. However, from a practical sense, wear the Eagle pocket patch until you're eighteen, then change over to the red, white and blue knot. Keep the Eagle award for special occasions. It's a proud moment every time I pin mine on, and it keeps my special award looking nice. I suppose you can always buy a new one if you break it on a rock during a High Adventure trek, but you only get one "original" award.

As someone once said, "The only thing I can add is... I have nothing to add." Thanks for a great idea that our Troop will try next camping trip!

OGE,

You've had so many great and insightful posts in this forum. I can't believe you said that!

You're doing a great thing and your district and council should surely be standing with you in your efforts. Contact your District Executive and/or your Council office and tell them of your needs. If they don't have the right books, etc. in stock, they should be able to get them.

Let us know in this forum of your findings. The Hispanic population is growing across the country and the publications you find may help others, too.

It's also far better to know that there are many, many more Scout leaders who guide the boys toward truly EARNING their way instead of getting "pencil-whipped" through. The satisfaction in having done the job completely will stay with them forever.

What would possess a Scoutmaster (of all people) to think a ten mile hike could be incorporated into the twenty mile hike? One would think a suggestion like that would come from an uninformed parent looking to make things easier for "little Johnny", not the leader of the Troop to whom the Scouts are to look up.

Scouts shouldn't do things because they are easy. They should do things because they are hard, because it's the best way to measure their skills, preparation and endurance. For a Scoutmaster to suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

To save sewing (and removing) the temporary patches all the time, I suggest the plastic patch holders, available through your local Scout gear store or Council service center. They cost between $0.50 and a dollar and are available in different sizes to accomodate the varying patches.

The Webelos crossover bridge doesn't need to be extravagant. The bridge should be used in a ceremonial way, with emphasis on the meaning of crossing.

Therefore, a bridge can be made nearly any way you would like. I would, however, utilize the woodworking talents of parents in your Pack to make it as special as you can. You could even have a Webelos den assist.

As an example, you could make it about 6' wide with a rustic appearance, complete with handrail. I encourage you to make it without a step up, allowing boys that may have a handicap or trouble walking to go over it without problems. Just make it a sort of ramp with the bridge about six inches high in the middle, tapering down to zero on either end.

Once it's done, come up with a special crossover ceremony to make it a truly special event for the Webelos. You can also utilize the bridge for a ceremony in which the Tigers "crossover" into Cub Scouting.

Amen, brothers, Amen! Their are people in this country so tied up in knots over not offending anyone, they offend the very people who make up the country. THIS IS AMERICA for goodness sake, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! We're darn proud to be Americans. Why wouldn't we be? What would any visitor or immigrant see as being wrong with that? What could possibly be offensive in flying the American flag or saying the Pledge of Allegiance? While our country isn't perfect, no one's is, it is OUR country and it's the greatest on earth. Putting our patiotism on display is not only appropriate, but a wonderful freedom.

We, here in the great state of Wisconsin, just had the Madison school board ban the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance and, get this... the LYRICS to the Star Spangled Banner! They didn't want to offend anyone with the words "under God", and the supposed militaristic style to the National Anthem. This is the problem with many high ranking educators in the country today. They've lost touch with common sense, but more importantly the common good. (By the way, Madison became such a laughing stock and embarrassment locally, state-wide and nationally, the board reversed their decision with some members still not sure what all the excitement was about).

As an ending to this post, I'd like to leave with you the following link. Some of you may remember Red Skelton. He did a piece on the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance. I hope you enjoy!

http://members.tripod.com/~usa_pride/skelton.html

Since we're listing some cute things about Scouting, I had to offer this. Dave got some good laughs from this, and personally, I thought it was pretty funny, too.

From the Home Office in

Wahoo, Nebraska

Top Ten Signs You're In A Bad

Boy Scout Troop

10. You get merit badge for picking the trifecta at Aqueduct.

9. You help old ladies across I-95.

8. First rule in handbook: "Blame the kid who can't speak English".

7. You're part of a very special troop called the Gambino family.

6. To become an Eagle Scout, you have to catch and eat a Bald Eagle.

5. Since he can't get time off, troop leader holds meetings in his

Century 21 office.

4. You get busted for selling knot-tying secrets to

Russian Boy Scouts.

3. Scout master hands out his favorite campfire treat --

Marlboro Lights.

2. Troop motto: "Be prepared...to lie on the witness stand".

1. Every year you have to put on a skirt and go door-to-door selling cookies.

As presented on the July 31, 2001 broadcast of

The Late Show with David Letterman

Thanks for the outstanding poem! It truly represents what responsibility we as adult leaders have with the boys and young men that follow us.

I took a group of Cub Scouts to a Resident Camp a couple years ago and the camp had this saying on the doors to the dining hall. It kind of echos your poem.

"Don't worry that Scouts don't always listen to you. Worry that Scouts are always watching you."

The moral... the same as in "A Little Scout Follows Me". We should lead by example.

This entire situation involving the Supreme Court has caused many people to become frustrated. I am no different from many of you in that regard. I believe in the Scouting program and what it does to reinforce good morals, good character and leadership skills that boys of today need to become outstanding men. What gets me upset the most is seeing people speak negatively about Scouting when it provides so much to the community in terms of positive programs for young boys.

What we need to do as a group is continue to speak positively about Scouting, be proud of Scouting and continue to handle any negative news in a positive fashion, relying on each other for support. What we can't do is fall into the trap of negativity, allowing the naysayers "fertilizer" to add to their movement.

There is no way that the Scouting program is going to go away. The support for Scouting through FOS and other fundraising will provide Scouts in our area with the funds we need. We don't have to ignore what's happening outside of our control or stick our head in the sand about what other people think. This entire process, while uncomfortable for most of us, will make the entire BSA stronger if we continue to provide strong programs and outstanding adult leadership.

I've been told that it's based on discrimination "within" the guidelines. Boy Scouts don't allow girls which is ok, but they can't discriminate within the ranks of the boys. They must be available to ALL boys I believe is the arguement.

Eisely, you are on top of things!

I'm a Scout leader in the Bay-Lakes Council and live in Green Bay. The story is near and dear to me. Fortunately, we have excellent leadership in our Council who wouldn't give in to the United Way of Brown County (Green Bay), nor did they give in to the United Way Fox Cities, which is another well populated area based around Appleton, 30 miles south of Green Bay. All of this occurred because both United Way offices made a new requirement that they expected their member agencies to sign stating that they wouldn't discriminate for any reason. It was aimed, of course, specifically at the Scouts. It's worth stating that there are many more (25+?) United Ways in our Council that, to date, have done nothing, at least publically.

There is a very strong feeling in our area that the Scouts will do just fine in regards to fund raising in spite of breaking ties with the United Way.

For more information, go to:

www.greenbaypressgazette.com

for a front page article on August 17, 2001.

Sounds good to me. It's just that there's so much in Scouting that is positive. I would much rather talk about that side of things. I AM glad there is a forum like this for Scouters to share thoughts, so, to all of you, keep bringing it on.

I don't participate much in the posting in many of these forums, but I do enjoy reading the experiences and insight into Scouting that most of you have. However, I am starting to get a bit concerned about the negativity in this thread.

Yes, there is a faction in the world that wants gay Scout leaders. Yes, there are things that could make the BSA a better organization than it already is, and yes, we as a group can constructively criticize anyone we choose. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, a Scout is Cheerful, so let's keep this forum as positive as possible.

Mike,

Thanks a lot for the website. It's very informative and has lots of information on the trail, the campsites and the island in general. We're really looking forward to the practice, the planning, and, of course, the trip itself.

I'd like to start a high adventure posting, mainly due to our Troop's plans to hike the Greenstone Ridge Trail on Isle Royale National Park in Lake Superior.

Have any you done this and could you share your experiences? We've got location in our favor by living in Wisconsin so travel is not a factor. I'd like to know more about Troops' experiences hiking Isle Royale and any other similiar trails. Thanks for the help.

My only experience is with Packmaster from Troopmaster Software Inc. (TSI) of Palmyra, VA. (804) 589-6788. While there are other brands of Scouting software available, I have always been happy with Packmaster and it's capabilities during the 2 years we've had it. The record keeping is incredible and it interacts with Troopmaster software.

This particular company also has accounting software for Packs and Troops that we have not utilized yet. If it's anything like Packmaster, we'll be making a purchase soon.

As the originator of this topic, I thank all who have responded. Please don't stop. Ideas come from all corners and can all be utilized for the benefit of the boys.

A few questions however. First of all, I'd like a definitive answer on the competition aspect of a camporee. The patrol method seems to be the winner here, if in fact competition is still allowed. From what I've heard, camporee programs are encouraged to be learning experiences and not competitions. I don't agree with that, however.

Secondly, in regard to Eisely's comments about "new boy" patrols, etc., I feel that having a good mix of older and younger boys in a patrol makes for great learning and leadership opportunities for all. Even if the patrol consists of all new Scouts, the opportunity is there for leaders to step forward.

If our camporees had competitions, the Troop meetings leading up to the camporee would involve practicing the events with the older Scouts helping the younger Scouts learn the skills. Then, when the time comes to actually do the event, all the boys know what they're doing and the older Scouts can lead as they're expected. Older Scouts tend to stay away from Scouting events because the events tend to be slanted toward the younger Scouts. Competition and leadership opportunities are what the older Scouts look for.

And as far as a patrol of older Scouts coming in and winning everything, I don't have a problem with that, as long as it's done in the spirit of Scouting. Not everyone can be a winner, nor should a camporee be skewed so everyone goes home with an award. Each participant DOES get a camporee patch and the experiences of being there that he will have forever. A great Scoutmaster will lead his troop in such a manner so they improve their Scouting skills and do their best. The only patrol you have to do better than is your own.

Thirdly, I don't have any problem with themes. It's kind of natural to build a camporee around one. Look at the patches and t-shirts from camporees and Scout camps we've all attended. In many cases, but not all, there's a theme of some sort. Is it a flat-out necessity? No. Does it add a flavor to the event? Yes. I say, if it makes sense, do it.

Lastly, if anyone has any more ideas for events at a fall (or spring) camporee, please add them to this forum. It is greatly appreciated!!