bbender

"the leader has enough to do without loading up with other peoples' kids" ===> Amen brother! Many times I'd be asked, and the answer was always: "no". I usually ended up asking another Dad to keep an eye on my kids!!

And FWIW, whether it's policy or not, we've also always said that for Pack Overnighters only Webelos can camp without a Parent or other guardian -- so we just took that option off the table for Wolves and Bears. This felt right to us even before we heard the "all scouting is local" mantra: even Webelos can have a rough time without Mom or Dad, and after all we do want families to participate.

Now, if someone were to come up to us with a good reason why they couldn't attend and ask if Bear Johnny can go with Bear Jimmy and his Dad (who is willing to watch over him), sure, we'd let them come have fun (but we don't advertise that).

And with respect to "The parents were going to let another Dad be the Cub's adult for the campout . . . ", I'd always double-double check to be sure that this "another Dad" really understands that HE's got the responsibility to look after Scout for the weekend just like his own Son (but with the distance/privacy that YPT requires).

Ya just hate it when the "another Dad" shows up and says "I'm supposed to watch over who??". Or worse . . . doesn't show up!

The several instances noted of Packs extending advancement deadlines through the summer only to find that folks didn't catch up after all is consistent with what we've seen in the (few) instances where an otherwise active Scout didn't complete his rank: if they cared to complete it, they'd be done by the end of the year. Not that we'd turn someone away who came in during the summer or during fall roundup with a change of heart and tune, wanting to get Johnny signed off, but we don't waste breath or bandwidth advertising it or asking if they're done.

For some, I suspect that the redemption of starting clean in a new year is enough, plus there's usually more boys who've joined, so Johhny isn't the only one without the Wolf badge . . .

We've got 3 Citizen Den Meeting Plans in the Webelos Meeting Plans at http://atlanta631.mypack.us/node/1005, including a link to a Jeopardy Citizen Website from another pack, plus a set of Jeopardy Answers and Questions written out and completed in multiple categories to help you with that part (you could also do it as a straight "Scholar Quiz" type of game show).

The arc of the meetings is basically (1) intro and prep (including an optional exercise to "make up the laws on an island"), with Flag Work, (2) a Community Leader Visit (many will come to you if you ask, and can be very interesting for the Scouts), and (3) the Jeopardy or Scholar Quiz meeting to cap it all off.

Hope this helps.

Absolutely agreed they are a Den, with a Den Leader who is an adult.

However, of course, concepts like "Denner" (the youth leader assistant to the adult Den Leader) do get incorporated into the Cub Scout program even before Webelos level, so there is some youth leadership there.

And a den is, for many, the first community where they can exercise some self-determined governance: for example, if (as we've done successfully) the adult Den Leader guides them to develop a code of conduct . . . the laws for how the den will operate, the Scouts feel that they have created their own rules.

Still a den, led by an Adult Den Leader, but preparation for Boy Scouts and beyond . . .

Possible links of use to your planning:

-- The NASA "Space Place", at http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/cubscouts/index.shtml

-- A NASA and Scouting site (with various links) at http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/informal/features/F_NASA_and_Scouting.html

-- Space Camp (Huntsville, Alabama), at http://www.spacecamp.com/

-- A Scouting the Net Page with "space" search results (showing lots of past "monthly themes" used for Cubs, Baloo's Bugles for those months, etc.), at http://www.scoutingthenet.com/scouting/Training/Roundtable/Handouts/00/05/

-- Unofficial Site with space themed items at http://www.e-scoutcraft.com/themes/space.html

Hope these help.

Sadly (warning: unofficial stuff being linked here), the patchtown folks (see http://www.patchtown.com/boyscoutpatr.html) don't have a "Spy" patrol (though I imagine they could take the old Mad Magazine Spy v. Spy image pretty easy), but there is an "eyes" emblem (see http://www.patchtown.com/eyespatrol.html), and also a "secret agent" emblem (but since it's just the words, that's a bit lame; see http://www.patchtown.com/secretagents.html).

Of course, don't let them see the whole gallery, or they'll want to be Vampire Teddy Bears or Gangsta' Frogs or Gnomes or something . . .

Yes, the Webelos are still in Den, but the Patch and Name make it "look like" a Patrol . . . which is great, as it fires up the Webelos, distinguishes them from younger Scouts, gives them further independence. It also helps with the Webelos goal of "preparing for Boy Scouts": if the Den picks "Eagle" or some other name that is not "taken" in the Troop you're aiming to join and the Troop maintains Patrols on the basis of age (not a mix of ages), they might retain the identity and "become" the Eagle Patrol of that Troop when they cross over.

So, currently they are the Eagle Den, but if they add "soon to be the Eagle Patrol!", I think we're all happy with that.

(and FWIW, I've always liked the idea of even Tiger Dens giving themselves a name -- not a patrol emblem -- but a name to tie into Den Yells, Flags, Doodles and the like -- I mean, "We're Den 12" is sooo boring compared to "We're the Tiger Sharks")

Our experience has been that form should follow function, that jobs generally fall into three categories noted below, and that gravity will constantly draw the jobs back onto the person who is driving the program overall (whether Chair, or Cubmaster, or an active Den Leader) so you've got to be vigilant to give tasks to people and keep them communicating with each other!

The three areas the jobs flow from are the following (and, of course, some folks might have jobs in more than one area if that lines up with their skillsets):

1. "program" jobs: every Den with a Den Leader and Assistant (plus "every parent leads" by helping at two meetings); plus Cubmaster and Assistants.

2. "administrative" jobs: Chair to oversee and be the primary recruiter to support Den Leaders; plus Treasurer to collect and account for Pack funds, Membership Coordinator to collect applications, handle recharter, and allocate "new member" stuff; Advancement Coordinator to handle records, inventory, assist with ceremonies; Communications Chair to oversee website, surveys, photos, etc.

-- To help "Pack Leaders" in these areas, we recruit helpers from each Den/Rank level, creating instant "committees" to share the work.

3. "event" jobs: in addition to event/outings coordinator, more important is the actual event organizers (we try NOT to have the Cubmaster or Den Leaders do both "event organizing" details plus program at those events), so for us that means something just about every month (some events being easier than others).

-- Likewise, we recruit helpers from each Den/Rank level.

We also sign up "snack czars" for each Den, so that the Den Leader has one less thing to track.

A link to the positions we have, and snapshots of "what you do" in the applicable jobs, can be found in our About Us and How to Join Page. That also contains the "Every Parent Leads" commitment that we require (which, of course, doesn't get universal follow-through, but is a lot better than what we once had!).

You betcha!!

When my first son crossed over, the Scoutmaster (a real cut-up) pulled over one of our former Webelos, and asked him (in front of me):

SM: "What does the Scoutmaster do?"

Scout: "He does this [sits down, twiddles thumbs], and says 'ask your Patrol Leader'".

SM: "What does the Cubmaster do?"

Scout: "He does . . . eeeevvvverything!".

How did I feel (about 3 weeks ago, when second son crossed over)?

Relieved!

. . . that I think my son is gonna dig the adventure/camping part (he told me 4 years ago after witnessing his first crossover and hearing that Boy Scouting was more challenging, etc. that "I'll stay in Cub Scouts to get that 'burning spear' [what he called the Arrow of Light], but I'm not going to join Boy Scouts, that sounds too hard".)

And also relieved in two other ways

. . . that I don't have to attend both sets of meetings and events (I'll still be Pack Trainer, to counsel those getting it done, but not on site).

. . . that after warning the Pack that more people had to step up and take on the MJOKAC ("Many Jobs Once Known As Cubmaster"), we had 3 people step up at the Banquet to serve as Cubmaster over the next three school years!

On the question of how long ("minimum amount of time from Webelos to AoL is 9 months, isn't it? Three for rank and 6 months for AoL"), technically, the AoL requirement is not tied to the end of the Webelos Badge 3 month requirement.

Webelos Badge tenure requirement is "Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months."

Arrow of Light tenure requirement is "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge."

So, technically, a 5th Grade new Webelos could earn AoL in 6 months, possibly at the same time as those who were Web I's in 4th Grade (we seem to pick up a lot of new Web II's in 5th Grade, and supplement our Web II program with a tutorial to cover Fitness and Citizen, since those get done by Web I's to earn the Webelos Badge so that they can wrap up AoL and cross over about now).

As to outdoor activity, yah, that's what grabs them. Webelos Encampment in the summer, Pack Camping in October, a Webelos Winter Camp (with our affiliated Boy Scout Troop) in November or December, and we've sometimes done our big January events with the Troop (e.g., Cave Camping).

On the comment that "read somwhere, sorry can't cite the specific location, that the TC den format will be coming more into line with the other programs areas come May 2010", here's a link with information: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscout2010/ppt/orientationpresentation1-21-2010.ppt, a good bit of which is contained in this recent "Baloo's Bugle": February 2010 Bugle. Among other things, this confirms that the Den Meeting Structure will be the same for Tigers, Wolves and Bears -- Tigers will no longer have "Search, Discover, Share" formats.

As a result, this further reduces the differences between Tiger and Wolf; yes, it doesn't eliminate the differences, but reduces them. Given difference in requirements and age related abilities (and requirements reflected age related abilities), there will always be differences.

For what it's worth, I personally believe that because the vast majority of the break-out detail in any of the three levels of Den Leaders Position Specific Training is similar (and often exactly the same), there is value in giving a more comprehensive training that covers all levels, so that differences, where they occur, are highlighted and explained. That, I believe, makes the important distinctions more apparent and appreciated. Plus, it helps (for example) a new Wolf Leader better appreciate how/why things would be done differently compared to last year's Tiger meetings, and why. It also helps leaders work with and train each other, as a Tiger Leader would be able to know and relate to what Wolf, Bear and Webelos Leaders are doing (and, in some cases, set them straight if they haven't taken training!) Given that training, there can then be modest Q&A breakouts to highlight specifics at a given level.

Of course, there is going to be a new set of training for all of this shortly, based on information in that link, so . . . who knows what the new current official training will look like!

P.S.: that recent "Baloo's Bugle" at www.usscouts.org/bbugle/bb1002.pdf also contains a great Bill Smith column that echoes a training belief of mine: that Den Leader is the hardest job, so the job of all is either to be a Den Leader or support the Den Leader. To that end, my preference would be that Cubmasters and Committee learn the Den Leader job through training, and that Den Leaders get trained to know what Committee folks and others are supposed to do -- so that they don't hesitate to put them to work! (Yes, all of that is not necessary in a fully stocked Pack structure with all jobs clicking along with trained leaders, but . . . not all Packs are like that).

Not at all, MNBob: sounds like you're a great CC. You're working hard to get volunteers, and truth be told, getting volunteers is harder these days. I venture that the typical unit finds that getting volunteers is usually a matter of putting all of the parents in the room to see who blinks first when told that "if there's no Den Leader, there's no Den". That's one of the reasons we insist on our "Every Parent Leads", so that poor volunteer doesn't end up stuck with no help.

And agreed on the propensity for criticism as well: I mean, I heard somewhere that "A Scout is Kind", right?

"Cub Scouts 2010 provides a workable program that makes it easier for new parents to become leaders without feeling completely lost" ===> Bingo! That's the goal and hope.

Of course, units with very deep leadership (including those who stay beyond their son's Cub Scouting tenure) have done fine under existing resources, and will continue to do fine under the new program. But many many parents, faced with the multiple resources for Den Meetings, have a hard time figuring out how to make the program happen -- a simpler Den Meeting program will make this easier for those new leaders to "get it", stick with it, and become excellent leaders. Making it easier (and fun) for new leaders is what we aimed for in our Pack and the neck of the woods I train in by rolling out the alternate version of Fast Tracks (see earlier thread on Fun 'n' Flexible Fast Tracks, and that's what the program can be: easier for new leaders, and resources galore can and will continue to be available for those who want to bring the fun in different ways.

I should note that while we do advancement in Den Meetings, our Pack takes a very dim view of Parents who don't participate, and not just at home: we have a policy called "Every Parent Leads" (see http://atlanta631.mypack.us/aboutus and http://atlanta631.mypack.us/system/files/EveryParentLeads.DOC), requiring every parent to be an akela, step up to help run at least 2 Den Meetings, and serve in a Pack Admin role if you're not already a leader.

We've "used" Program Helps, but not "followed" it: we use years of them like a great cookbook, flagging activities that look fun and plugging them in where it fits with what we're doing in a Den Meeting and/or Pack Activity. But we don't follow it on our calendar and/or plan our meetings based on those themes. For example, if we are going to Space Camp as a January Activity, we'll pull space elements from whatever year of Program Helps had the best elements our leaders could lead.

In fact, a lot of the "best" items we liked ended up in our "Big Cub Activity Playbook", and then in the alt version of Fast Tracks we made available last September (see more at Fun 'n' Flexible Fast Tracks), which we like as a mesh of the advancement focus of Fast Tracks with the fun and silly stuff that envelopes the "purpose" of Scouting within the "game".

Thanks cubdad4.

I believe the Cub Scouts 2010 site (see http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts%202010.aspx) shows the Pittsburgh Scout Executive speaking about the new program. Suffice it to say that some believe that if, as he notes, the new Den and Pack Meeting Resource Guide would become the "one stop shop for the Den Leader" and "the go to tool for leaders", then putting some fun meat on the bones of the fast track plans would have value.

By the way, a Webelos version of Fun and Flexible Fast Tracks is now up at http://atlanta631.mypack.us/node/1005 for anyone's use.

From a number of sources, The Emergency Broadcast System:

-- The Den Lines up, facing the Audience.

-- Den Leader or another announcer says: "This is a test of the Pack 123 emergency broadcast system. This is only a Test."

-- Everyone in the Den hums a very high pitched note (a Beeeeeeeeeeep sound, similar to the tone on the radio just before an emergency broadcast is given).

-- Stop when the leader raises his hand.

-- When the humming stops, the announcer then says: "This has been a test of the Pack 123 emergency broadcast system. This has been only a Test. If this had been an actual emergency, this is what you would hear . . . "

-- At that point everyone in the Den begins to scream and run around terrified and in panic, and then they all run away.

(Make sure you practice so the Beeeeeps start and stop when they should and so that the punch line does not drag on too long.)

Let me provide an update. We've put "beta" versions of the "Fun n Flexible Fast Tracks" outlines for Tiger, Wolf and Bear on our site at http://atlanta631.mypack.us/node/1005, with additional meeting options. With those additions, the ones required for the Bagdge are now called "Core" meetings, and the other couple dozen that you can pick and choose from are now called "Bonus" meetings. These updates contain some streamlining and additional ideas pulled from surfing the web in places like these Forums, plus McScouter, Insane Scouter, Bill Smith, various yahoo type lists, and others.

The outline's individual Meeting Plans are drafted for Den Leaders as the No. 1 thing (not the only thing) to get organized and plan Den Meetings for the year -- the concept is that if they have this Outline, and nothing more, they could have terrific meetings and be excellent Den Leaders. More about the theory behind the drafting, and how fun and flexibility can work, is found in "Notes about the Order and Content of Meetings" in the first section of each Rank Level Plan.

In service, and with invitation for comment and feedback.

Bert Bender

Pack Trainer/Assistant Cubmaster

Pack 631, South Fulton District, Atlanta Area Council

http://www.atlanta631.mypack.us

(Look for the "Den Meeting Playbook (and Fun Fast Tracks)" page on the left side)

Like the last Poster, I was someone who "did it all" where others didn't step up (not that I minded while helping the Pack start up and develop a program and template for future success, as I wanted to be sure if it was done, it was done as best we could). But we quickly realized that to avoid burnout on the part of Den Leaders (and me), we needed an "Every Parent Helps" rule (now called "Every Parent Leads", since just saying "uh, I'll help when/if I show up" doesn't do much for sharing the coordination burden). Every Parent has to help lead two Den Meetings, and take on a Pack Administrative Role (or be on a Committee to support the Pack Chair in an area like Advancement, Activities, Derby, Banquet, Membership, Communications -- and if there is no Pack Chair, the Chair will come from the Committee).

As part of that, since in 5 months and 2 days (not that I'm counting) my youngest son will cross over to a Troop, we announced two years ago that I would no longer be Cubmaster as of Fall 2008 -- at which time we had to introduce the "MJOKAC Distribution Program". MJOKAC is pronounced "muh-jo-kak", and means "Many Jobs Once Known As Cubmaster". The concept was that when we announced a need to get a new Cubmaster, the common comment was "I can't do what he did", and instead we said: You don't have to. Because if Every Parent Helps, we'll distribute the MJOKAC, and Cubmaster could be just the MC at Pack Events.

Bottom line advice to anyone: start that early! It is a hard process, and while it is easier (short term) to "do it all", it is harder in the long run.

Bert Bender

Pack Trainer/Assistant Cubmaster

Pack 631, South Fulton District, Atlanta Area Council

http://www.atlanta631.mypack.us

(Look for the "About Us and How to Join" page on the left side for our "Every Parent Leads" rule)

On the concept of "interested in what was in the Den Files, but alas access is denied", well, trust me: the good stuff is "out there" on the "Den Meeting Playbook (and Fun Fast Tracks)" page.

Thanks for the feedback. Been a fun 6 years -- though transition of leadership is for spin-off into another thread about our MJOKAC Program (pronounced "muh-jo-kak") that aims to distribute the "Many Jobs Once Known As Cubmaster"!

Let me chime in on the commentaries over the last year about "Fast Tracks" and now Cub Scouts 2010, which (based on the Sneak Peak of the Resource Guide) will evidently install Fast Tracks meeting plans as the way to do Den Meetings. And forgive the cross posts, as I want to offer a constructive suggestion and a resource (found at http://atlanta631.mypack.us/node/1005) that many might be able to use.

Background: I became a Tiger DL in the 03-04 year for a startup Pack, and wrote a 1 or 2 page set of notes about what we were doing each meeting (for myself and to hand to other parents attending), including requirements we were going to work on. I'd put in fun ideas and activities (e.g. a "Treasure Hunt" instead of just "maps"), and I passed those down to my successors the next year. "Program Helps" was a resource, but we did not follow it: our Pack never tried to "all follow the same theme", and we always focused on doing some advancement in most Den Meetings. We used "Program Helps" like a Cookbook: flag the ones you could make that sound good, and use them when you can. Like most cookbooks, there's stuff I love, and stuff I can't make. With two sons, I became Cubmaster (and a "pinch hitting" Den Leader and Pack Trainer), and began to create a "Big Cub Activity Playbook" so that our Den Leaders could run those plays or hand off to other Parents. We moved to "2 Den Meetings a month" by 2005, and hit 80+ Cubs in the Pack a year later, with 95% or so advancing.

Further background: I got some peek into the Fast Tracks pilot drafting in early 2008, and thought "gee: looks familiar". When I saw the rough draft of Fast Tracks after the Central Region Pilot, I noted up the chain that it was a bit more observational (like a diary of what we did), and less planning oriented ("your Den might visit/build/play") than I expected of a "meeting plan" to guide Den Leaders.

Then when Fast Tracks morphed a year ago from a "closed Pilot" to an open portal, I was optimistic. Seemed simpler to follow (and get the Rank done) than "Program Helps", and thus a better guide if you needed "just one thing" to start your meeting plans, especially for a new Leader (who could supplement with "Program Helps" and other resources). The downside that I noted in my neck of the woods was that the Plans needed supplements in two main areas: how to make it more fun, plus creating "options" that might be as good or better for a Den.

So, I am here to agree with parts of both those yelling "Program Helps Rules" and the folks chanting "Fast Tracks is the Future", but more importantly I am posting to share with you a tool now provided to our Pack and District: a revised version of Fast Tracks, named, for the moment, "Fun n Flexible Fast Tracks". Tiger, Wolf and Bear versions are done; Webelos versions are still in review and will hopefully roll out in a few weeks. These are drafted (as the Resource Guide will be next year) for Den Leaders as the No. 1 thing (not the only thing) to get organized and plan Den Meetings for the year -- so if they have this Outline, and nothing more, they could have terrific meetings and be excellent Den Leaders. More about the theory behind the drafting, and how fun and flexibility can work, is found in "Notes about the Order and Content of Meetings" in the first section of each Rank Level Plan.

In service, and with invitation for comment and feedback.

Bert Bender

Pack Trainer/Assistant Cubmaster

Pack 631, South Fulton District, Atlanta Area Council

http://www.atlanta631.mypack.us

(Look for the "Den Meeting Playbook (and Fun Fast Tracks)" page on the left side)

We use SOAR (http://atlanta631.mypack.us/) and have embraced PayPal for the convenience factor (despite the "scalp" PayPal takes on charges). We've decided that for minor event costs (campouts, baseball tickets) the convenience of pulling the funds directly beats the volunteer time wasted trying to collect $15 checks. For more costly items (Webelos Camp), we collect directly. For annual dues, we give the option, but the OnLine payment option "grosses up" the actual number so that the Family pays the convenience charge, not the Pack.

Hello Kent, let me give my insights on some of your comments:

"I wish the SOAR site had a way to automatically stay in sync with TroopMaster, rather than requiring ongoing importing of data." ===> While not automatic (that is, you have to do something), it is fast. The export from TM is instant, and the upload into the SOAR Website takes a few seconds.

"The formatting of the home page messages seems archaic . . . assume it is using HTML. In other parts . . . they provide rich text-like input . . . seems odd." ===> Not knowing what is in the "stock" items that come with the format, for the "entries" (announcements, calendar, etc.), the site allows one to choose between "a Text Editor that allows minimal HTML tags to be used" and "a Rich Text Editor". Our Pack Website (http://atlanta631.mypack.us) stayed with the "Text Editor", but I think the Troop Website (http://atlanta631.mytroop.us) went with Rich Text Editor (perhaps after starting with Text Editor, which is why it is different in some areas). The Soar people advise you to stick with one, and keep it.

"website . . . created [and] "owned" by a particular person, and as many of us know roles change" ===> Soar is easily transferred, and can have multiple people "editing" to facilitate transfer. Plus, "stock" information and announcements use "email alias" features so that when the Chair or Treasurer or whoever changes, you change one "email alias" and all messages are routed to the right person.

As to PayPal and "the problem . . . that it has to be connected to a particular individual - that it can't be a general troop account just associated with the troop's bank account, AND that it is not really transferable to another individual as roles in the troop change . . . " ===> Technically, it is a hassle to change signatories on a Bank Account too as Treasurer jobs transfer. From my view using PayPal for the last 5 months, the "Business Name" of our account is "Pack 631", and the Account Contact can be set up to be the "treasurer@mypack.___" alias. Now, a treasurer or other person with access could move funds in a bad way, just like a treasurer or another person with access to checks could move funds in a bad way.

"Do members need to re-enter their passwords every time they log into the website? or does it provide the ability for the PC to remember the password?" ===> I think it depends on how your PC is set up. Mine doesn't "prompt" me, but at the computer lab next to our meeting sites, those computers do "prompt" me with the "do you want us to remember your username/password".

"eBlast - does that automatically send out e-mail reminders for selected e-mail events" ===> No, and yes. It isn't a "specific to event" reminder, but a "here's what's new in the last week", including a section top right about "events in the next 7 days".

-- Downside: doesn't focus on just one thing that needs attention.

-- Upside: focuses in one email on everything new that needs attention, rather than all getting multiple emails.

"Does the SOAR calendar have any linkage to the TroopMaster calendar?" ===> Not that I am aware of.

"for the activity registration, if [someone] can't use the on-line site, can a leader (or administrator) add them to the list?" ===> Yes. And "edit" the entry when things change.

"Can any adult leader add/edit [website items]? Or is that only an administrator task?" ===> To edit, you just need the right username/password.

-- Members" can only "edit" by making a "comment", or by "signing up".

-- Leaders" with the right password can create/edit calendar entries, announcements, files, links, etc. (sadly, also "delete" entries . . . so training is needed!)

-- "Admins" with the right password can do all of that, plus do the TM downloads and other "overall" maintenance.

"do Scouts and Parents get different accounts? Or is it per family? Per e-mail address?" ===> Depends. We've used a single "Username/Password" for "members". But you can have the website give you more security by having each "website member" have their own personal "Username/Password".

-- Then, when they forget the "Username/Password", when they try to login and fail, they can click a button to have that "Username/Password" sent to their registered email address.

"I'm an ASM and the advancement coordinator" ===> So note that if you keep TM updated, and uploaded on SOAR, Scouts and Parents don't have to ask "what does Jimmy need to complete First Class?", because it will be linked right by Jimmy's name in the Roster . . .

Pack and Troop 631, South Fulton District, Atlanta Area Council:

http://atlanta631.mypack.us/

http://atlanta631.mytroop.us/