Newbie Den Leader

QUOTE:

(Yes, I sew on my son's patches, not my wife or tailor. Have a few jealous moms in my pack on this point.)

Good for you! I'm glad to know I'm not the only Dad that sews on his son's pathces. Besides, a Scout should know how to do basic sewing. Right?

QUOTE:

"When I was trained, I was told that if it was in the book, then they can do it. It is in the book. Each of the 8 requirements are are there completely, and "How to protect you children from child abuse" section is there, encompassing multiple pages."

I have been told the same thing. If your den began using a handbook with older requirements before new requirements were issued, you can finish out the year using the older requirements. After that, you need to follow the new requirements.

It sounds great! The National Capital Council sounds like they're doing pretty well for themselves. I did not like the part that said some of the costs would obtained through "general financing." I hope financing has been kept to a minimum. Friends of Scouting generally like their donations to go to fund scouting programs rather than servicing debt.

I wonder if the property can be or will used for National Jamborees?

Jkhny,

This statement contradicts your original post. At first you complain that BSA is becoming more centralized and top-down from National and now youre concerned that volunteers are not paying attention to District & Council.

What is your complaint really?? Im sure you have legitimate issues, but constantly focusing on the negatives really puts a drain on me. Often, volunteers quit because of a focus on negativity (jaundiced critical outlook) rather than reinforcing the positive reasons how volunteer work makes a difference in the lives of the boys.

Be glad that volunteers primarily focus on their units. The success of the BSA is only as strong as the units. Politics and big salaries aside, strong units are what are needed for the boys and I applaud all adult leaders that un-selfishly focus their energy on their Troops and Packs. If the units fail because of self-serving volunteer adult leaders, then it does not really matter how much the professionals get paid because they will be out of a job anyway.

Yours truly,

A happy volunteer Cub leader

Scouting for Food is great program and gives the boys a sense of accomplishment by helping others. We have found that the best results come by knocking on doors rather leaving bags hanging on door knobs. In fact, the results are far, far better. Folks are very receptive when they see Scouts in uniform collecting food for the needy. They are much less responsive to impersonal bag left on the door knob.

Example: One of our cubs was disappointed that no one on his assigned streets left a bag out for him to pick-up. Rather than go home empty handed, he knocked on each door of one of the streets and collected food from everyone that answered their doors. His collection was greater than the rest of the Pack combined.

Our Pack did it back in February. The method we used was to drop off bags at homes on one Saturday and come back and pick them up the next Saturday. We collected alot of food, but it was not really the success we had hoped for. The vast majority of homes did not set out any bags on pick-up day. The problem with our method is getting folks to remember to set out their bags for pick up. We plan to change our approach and planning for next year.

A sidenote: Some scouts came through my neighborhood and placed Scouting For Food bags on my door. I filled the bags and set them out on my porch for pickup the following Saturday. THEY WERE NEVER PICKED UP.

There is no requirement that two adults be present for den meetings, or troop meetings.

Even if the requirement is not there, most leaders I know insist on having another adult (registered or not) present with them at all scout functions including meetings. The two adult rule is reinforced in my Pack not only for the protection of the boys but also for the adults.

SMT99,

Since I'm a "Newbie", I have not experienced this type of behavior, but I will share what our experienced Cubmaster told us.

If you have a serious behavior problem that is disruptive to your den meetings, inform the parents with the hope that they will intercede to correct junior's problem. If there is still no improvement, then make junior sit "in the corner" during den meetings with absolutely no participation with the other boys. Remind him that he is welcome to participate in den activities only if he behaves and respects the other boys. The choice is his.

If things never improve and he continues to be a problem, you can remove him from membership, suspend him from meetings, or simply refuse to give him any rank advancement, belt loops, arrow points, etc.

The bottom line: Lovingly remind him that you care about him, but his behavior is not acceptable, will not be tolerated, and he will not be welcomed at further Pack or Den meetings.

--Jeff

Do what is best for your Den. A little reward to motivate is never a bad idea. Besides, it keeps things interesting, makes it fun, and they still learn in the process.

I'm glad their making changes to Tiger Cubs to incorporate them into the full Cub Scout program. The transition has been painfully slow. Tigers should have been a full Cub Scout program from the very beginning. I avoided putting my son into Tigers because I did not perceive them a "real" Cub Scouts.

QUOTE by fotoscout:

"The Lion program will require some very special people to pull it off and be successful at it. Cub Scout Leaders tend to burn out. We already have a shortage of CS Leaders, what kind of dynamic is this going to set up?"

Hopefully with the addition of new parents will come the addition of more volunteer leaders. That does not always happen. Our Pack does not officially have a Tiger Den because none of the parents would step up to be a Tiger Den Leader. Most of them did not warm up to the fact that they were required to be at every den meeting with their son. This was an unfortunate situation for us because we had about 10 Tigers last year and this year we have none. Dynamics can change so fast in a Pack.

About burning out: Keep it fun and keep it simple. It's easy to get overwhelmed when we read and look at the leader handbooks and program guides. Don't follow the "program helps" if it does not help you, your den/pack, or your budget. Program helps are merely ideas to help you, but are not the law. Be flexible to do something that is completely different from the Program Guide. The BSA police will not come and arrest you. Cub Scouts is designed to teach values and skills while having a relaxing and fun time.

Maybe the name should be changed to "Basic Trained" rather "Trained". "Trained" gives the impression that someone has mastered a set of required skills. Before I became an adult leader and was outside-looking-in, that's what I thought it meant. Boy, was I wrong!

Thanks for your wisdom and comments. I probably need to have better training on the culture of training in the BSA. My expectations of course-level training may be too high and unrealistic. Im a new adult leader, but not new to working with boys, and Im not new to the Boy Scouts as I was one as a youth.

I do understand that real training is ultimately hands-on service and multi-faceted. Im very active with my Pack and Den, and that has been the best trainingperiod. Along with that, I desire to take as many relevant courses the BSA has to offer in order to make me a better leader for the benefit of myself, and the scouts and parents I serve.

If what I'm reading on this thread represents the Lion program, then I'm not impressed. If it's going to work well, it needs be to be an all Cub Scout program with no mixing of LFL.

QUOTE: "All we should expect out of NLE and Leader Specific Training is a basic understanding of our program, position, and resources for further learning."

That's what I expected and not what I received. To their credit, the NLE training was "okay", but the Leader Specific Training for Den Leaders was poor. It was basically a Q&A time for for folks that did not know the color of the cub scout uniform (not an exaggeration). Additional information imparted to us did not go much deeper than that.

A test would indeed add value. Testing forces the students to pay attention and the trainers to better prepared. For now, the "Trained" patch simply means I attended and warmed a seat. The current structure has good value, but I don't believe it qualifies anyone as "Trained". We all know better, don't we?

Trained

We all know the patch and many of us wear it. The idea behind the patch is a good one, but the quality of the training I received was not very good. Regardless of the low quality, the adult leaders received their Trained patches anyway. After that experience, my view of the Trained patch has diminished. All it tells me is that you attended the prescribed classes and were declared Trained.

It seems to me that Trained should reflect that you passed an examination that shows you actually attained a knowledge of basic essentials and not simply attended a lecture. I recommend a minimum skills test written by the BSA should be a part of the training in order to standardize the quality of the program.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Are my standards are too high? Earning the Trained patch should not be made difficult, but neither should it be relegated to the same level as an activity patch.

I'm a new adult leader in my Pack and I desire to be trained with all that the BSA offers.

In my area, basic leader training tends to be at the district level and classes are few and far between. If you miss one, there may not be another for 6 months. This is a liability when you have new adult leaders that need to be "trained". From my experience, the Basic Leader Training was low quality. Specifically, the "Den Leader Specific Training" I received did not help me at all; it was nothing but a Q&A time to bring folks up to speed that did not even know the color of the Cub Scout uniform. For me, it was a waste of time and did not teach me anything about being a den leader, but the BSA says I have to take it to get the "trained" patch. My experience certainly lowered my opinion of the "trained" patch.

Basic Leader Training should offer more correspondent and on-line courses to replace what is missing at the district level. A basic examination of leader fundamentals should be required before anyone receives a "trained" patch. The exam does not need to be difficult, but at least forces leaders to focus on the fundamentals.

I've politely addressed my concerns to district officials, but I guess I'm not high enough on the food chain to make a difference (I don't have any "knots" on my uniform yet).

I actually get better training from reading and absorbing Cub Scout adult leader curriculum than going to live meetings. The only problem is the BSA does not recognize this method as being "Trained".

QUOTE: "I find the wording on the Quality Unit form extremely poorly worded, for Cub Scouts, anyway. Especially the way it's all phrased in the future tense, saying what we will do. Shouldn't it be based on what we have done?"

I agree with Oak Tree and this is why I have never placed much value on the award. Our good-intentions don't always materialize.

Kudu,

The uniform pants are over-priced, but the quality, fit, and construction are just fine. I have a pair and they are durable, comfortable, and they don't rip anywhere. The illustration you give is typical of adults who buy them too small and wear them too tight. I see this often at adult leader meetings. The pants are supposed to be "relaxed-fit" for ease of movement, but for some strange reason, some adults like to wear them two or three waist inches too small.

Sunset,

Our cubs wear jeans with their shirts and they look just fine. Everyone looks the same and there are no issues. We don't require pants and don't force it. Non-uniform navy blue pants look good too. I would encourage your scouts to go ahead and get neckerchiefs and belts. You already have the shirts, just a few more dollars will help complete the uniform from the waist up. I have no advice on fundraisers - let the boys outfit themselves the best they can.

We have no written uniforming requirements for adult leaders other than what is recommended by the BSA. We do ask that adult leaders (CM & DL's) who work directly with the boys to at least wear a uniform shirt to all den and pack meetings. Uniform pants are optional. We don't require our cubs to wear uniform pants, so we don't put that requirement on the adults.

I agree with the previous posts. Setting the example wearing your uniform speaks volumes to the other volunteers. You don't have to say a word to convince them and if they stick with the program, they will get their uniforms in time. If not, no big deal; this is the Cub Scouts, not the military. Forcing someone to pay $70-100 to get outfitted in a uniform may cause you to lose them for good.

If money is truly the reason that the leader cannot get uniformed, then consider helping help him buy one. Of course, I would only do this if the leader was truly devoted and enthusiastic.

From my perspective as a little assistant cub scout leader, I personally don't see my council spending $120/year on my Cub Scout son as they claim. Yes, when you divide total revenues by total membership you will get a "per scout" figure, but that figure cannot be relevant for every active Scout in the council.

What I paid for my Cub Scout:

Partial Scout Uniform - $65 (does not include pants)

Registration Fee & Boys Life - $22/year

Dues to the Pack - $60/year ($5/month)

Campouts and other misc. activties - $120/year

What I paid as an adult leader:

Full Uniform - $115.00

Registration Fee - $10/year

Friends Of Scouts - $120/year (voluntary, but a monetary contribution)

Cost of Basic Leader Training - $20

Volunteering my time to the Pack and fund-raisers for the Pack - Priceless

What my Council paid for my Cub Scout:

Bobcat Badge & Wolf Badge ($5.00?)

The rest of his cost I'm not sure about: Training? Campground maintenance? Insurance? These are likely and expected council expenses, but are indirect costs that do not directly affect his experience as a Cub Scout. Much of what he does as a Cub Scout is close to home and funded locally by the Pack and his parents.

Quoted by Backpacker: "As far as Merlyns numbers are concerned, I don't believe his or even Nationals numbers are truly accurate, and that the truth is somewhere in between the two. As we have seen in the press councils and National both fabricate numbers all the time, it has been a long standing practice, especially since the 1970's."

How sad. Why in the world should we expect our boy scouts to be "Trustworthy" when our leaders don't practice it? It makes me sick. I expect the truth from my council and the national council. Nothing more, nothing less.

I realize that it is hard and sometimes impossible to get numbers that are 100% accurate because of human error and other variables. However, to deliberately misrepresent the facts is just plain wrong and there is no excuse for it.

A Church may be a better CO, simply because someone might care about the pack.

Thats all that really matters.

Will they impose requirements on the leaders and scouts that will in the end, be unacceptable? More and More we have that happening in our area.

Is not the chartering organization the owner and supporter of the troop/pack? As long as they do not violate BSA policies, the CO has the right to approve the selection of the adult leaders. In my particular scenario, we have reminded the church leaders that the Scouts are not required to be members of the church in order to be in the Pack.

The Church CO's have come to feel empowered and missionary in their role as CO.

So? All COs, whether secular or religious, enjoy a certain degree of empowerment as they sponser a BSA troop/pack. This empowerment has been granted to them by the BSA. Im sure even a VFW post would like some voice about how the troop should operate and who is leading them.

I was in a boy scout in a troop that was chartered by a Methodist church. The scoutmaster and his assistants were not members of the church and I dont think any of the scouts were members. The only religious influence they placed on us was to take part in Scout Sunday. Other than that, they were very hands-off.

QUOTE: The religious based CO's have hijacked BSA

How does this happen? In the long history of the BSA, churches/religious organizations have always been among the major COs of scout troops. Its been a great partnership that the BSA really prefers. Public schools are basically secular government operations and really dont want anything to with scouting; its a strained relationship at best.

My cub scout pack is getting ready to transfer from a public school to a church that is ready to sponsor us. Its a better fit Churches dont have a problem with an organization that requires a belief in God to a member.

Uniforms have always been expensive and they were expensive when I was a Scout in the 1970's. The "made in the USA" is a factor. The BSA could contract with a compnay in China to make them, but I don't think the BSA wants to be indentified with a communist government.

Cost is a real issue with all of us, but our willingness to spend money on a uniform is also directly tied to our level involvement and enthusiam.

The 100% cotton shirts are the best value. They are only $5.00 more than the cotton/poly shirts, but the quality of the fabric is remarkably higher and little heavier; it looks nicer. The buttons do not come off either.

Camping Gear? Wal-Mart

Cheaper Uniforms? E-Bay

QUOTE: "The text that goes along with that implies that you can't be as good a person, or citizen, if you don't have a belief in God..."

Indeed, there are many atheist that we could call "good" people. The problem is that atheists do not have an unchanging moral standard to live by to determine what is "good" and what is "bad".