Gone

With reluctance, I'm moving this to I&P.  There's a lot of commentary on the usefulness (lack thereof) of districts and councils.

 

This needs to be there.

I&P??

We were actually getting to a discussion about how to re-model districts if they don't seem to work. That's a real discussion.

C'mon, let's not silence debate on a topic just because there's disagreement.

All this talk about science and God reminds me of that South Park episode.

We really don't have to worry about this going very far.

 

Why?

 

Equipment and facilities. Most schools are not going to be interested in turning over their lab facilities for an outside group to use. That equipment is expensive and easy to break. It is also potentially dangerous (even lethal) in untrained hands. From the point of view of the school there is nothing gained by opening the door to STEM Scouts. You are better off forming a science club of your own, which will require zero membership fees and zero additional insurance, and to which you can assign a faculty member as the adviser/coach. No school with any sense is going to let some outsider supervise use of lab equipment, too much risk.

11-13 year olds can't use a post hole digger but they can use caustic chemicals in STEM?

It may be easier to administer, but I think the transition rules would allow the Scout to choose the old requirements if they make Scout before Jan. 1.

If council gives us the thumb's up we are good to go with their blessing....which we have. I consider it blessed and done.

@, I'm feeling a little slow this morning.... and I'm having difficulty in understanding the advantage of the December start

 

No BOR for Scout, just a quick review of requirements, an SMC and award. The new requirements are a bit more involved and require a BOR.

As our council put it, they don't consider Scout "on the road to FC" under the 2015 requirements. Once 2016 comes, Scout is the first step on that path. 

 While I liked many of these subjects in school, I still did not go back to any of the classes after school and participate in any of the programs as a form of entertainment or personal satisfaction.

You need to go to a middle school again.

I was in one recently during morning announcements. Football? Small claps. Basketball? Nada. Math team wins a tournament? Loud cheers and clapping.

@@Hedgehog sounds like your unit does not recover gas and other expenses as part of your camp costs. $25 for food and campsite? Where is gas, propane, and other incidentals recovered.

I'm also jumping between the two district threads.....

 

A semi-pertinent thought:   when did districts become the bureaucratic organizations that many are now?

 

As an SPL, my SM always took me to district RT.   I knew the district staffers from RT, the spring camporee and fall freezoree.  

 

They were friendly.   Helpful.   Respectful.   Superb outdoorsmen.  And there were only about four of them, including the DE.   Strong leaders but stayed behind the scene.  I looked up to all of them.

 

I age out, then come back to scouting four years later as an ASM in another part of the country, go to the district RT, and am shocked at the number of people on district staff.   And a goodly percentage of them are people who are clearly District Types.   In a nutshell, the exact opposite template of my previous impressions and experiences.   They provided little/no service to the units, were focused on fundraising and grabbing good scouters out of units, and liked to throw their weight around at camporees and such.

District events in my area remind me of a scene out of Atlas Shrugged.

BadWolf, actually I think that if a new Scout joins in December, earns the Scout badge in December (and is then considered to be "working on Tenderfoot"), it would be up to that Scout (not the PLC) to choose the new or old requirements through First Class.

Council advancement chair has recommended this approach. Under the current rules, if we award Scout in late December the boys would use the 2016 requirements. Most units are going to use this approach to help with advancement admin.

I get it - there are districts out there with entrenched good old boys that make it hard for people like you to volunteer I also know that giving up and sitting back griping isn't going to change things - and if it's that bad for you, it's likely to be that bad for the other units.

 

It can change - it takes a little work, but it can change - you've actually already suggested one way to start change - organizing multi-unit events on your own.  If other units are feeling the same way, go ahead and organize your own "camporee" or first aid meet, or orienteering match, or Klondike with the other units - and make a point of tweaking the district folks by holding yours on the same days/weekends as the official district events.  If the strongest units start doing multi-unit activities on their own, it's going to be noticed.  It also gives you folks the chance to work with each other strategize - you've just created a mini-district within your district.  If you can get enough COR's to back you and can get them to go to the next annual meeting, you can walk in and install your own slate over the official nominated slate - it's the COR's votes that count.  Then you can dismantle the old boys network.  Impossible?  Not at all - others have done it in the past.  Could the DE get perturbed at you and try to cause problems?  Sure - but you just his/her boss and tell them that none of the units in your camp will be doing FOS or popcorn sales.  What are they going to do, revoke the charters of their strongest units? 

 

Or maybe it's time to change the model completely - ake it easy for folks - have Councils hire programming staff who will staff and run pinewood derbies, camporees, first aid meets, trainings, and stuff that volunteers have been doing for decades - but we better find something other than popcorn to sell because the fundraising to keep that kind of monster running will be brutal.

Which is exactly what we do. All of this.

Don't get me wrong, our unit used to RUN our district.....for years. We staffed the heck out of it, made sure no one unit controlled the district, offered great events and training and unit assistance. Even had a unit assistance fund. About 15 years ago we got a DE that killed all that and ticked off nearly every unit that we all stayed away. District got all staffed up with a good ole boy network and they're still there....hence my position.

After our last middle school outdoor education trip, we took a survey of the kids to rank the activities.  

 

The 3 Science activities came in first, third, and fourth. The English department came in second (Storytelling).  So, these top 4 activities beat out the Physical Education department  (swimming, canoeing, and archery).  

 

Team Building, which was a perennial first place,  took a huge plunge down to eighth.

Let's face it, STEM Scouting is BSA's attempt to get the Asian market. They're not as focused on outdoor as other kids, but rather math and science.

We do not have a FB page or group. Some of the boys do but not the unit. I think there are better ways to make oneself known to the community. One way is to be active in the community and actually be seen by people.

When was the last time you said something like, "H'mmm, I think I'm interested in finding a club in our local community...let me check Facebook."? If anyone has EVER asked that question I'm sorry for them.

We've had many folks moving to our area find us on FB as well as our website. We pick up about 5 scouts a year that way. With local Cubs, their parents check in on our FB page to see what we are doing. We tag various locations they also go to and they see us in action. We get about 300 local people viewing our posts every week. They repost to their groups which give us more exposure. We had offers of scout exchange from three countries come through which we would have never gotten through a simple website.

I hated FB for year!!! I still don't have a personal account, but there's no doubt that it is an effective channel for recruiting and getting the word out. I believe @@KenD500 lives in the Big D, FB is HUGE down there according to my cousin who's a unit lead there. They have a page that gets tons of traffic and even more scouts than we get through that channel. They've even taken the time to do flashy graphics and such.

I asked how you "propose to make things better."  We got a lot of good ideas from unit Scouters.  I didn't expect them to focus outside their unit.  In fact, the best ideas came from the Scouters in good units, and in those unis is where we needed them to be.

I would start by asking units what they need. We need:

• Less paperwork
• Faster paperwork processing with fewer errors

That's all we need from district. Others may need more.

If you want to stay within your own unit and do all that wonderful stuff, fine, go for it - just stop complaining and grumping about how bad the district is, how bad the council is, how horrible training is unless your willing to step up and change things - the grand poobahs not accepting your help with range activities?

So districts and councils ONLY get better if the volunteers step in and do the work the paid staff should be doing? Please!

Districts and councils are here to help US, not the other way around. If their programs are not viable, if their events are boring, if their politics keeps people from helping where their strengths lie, then WHY should we help keep alive something that is essentially parasitic?

You have yet to explain why councils and districts are necessary. What they offer far out paces what they demand. They are a money-losing product line. A drain. If districts require units to work then the model is broken. It is very simple: Most of us spend oodles of hours making our units work and don't have time (literally) to offer to district. So if district require us to run, then they need to find a new model. That's how the business world works, BSA should too.

In my area they have $5m for camps but don't spend it. I can get my BSA materials online. Most of the templates I need about Scouting I get from other Scouters, not council/district.

I will continue to complain about the district model -- just as others here complain about other stuff going on (or not going on) in scouting -- because it creates dialog. It allows people like you and I who have differing opinions to vet about how to fix problems.

So I offer this: If districts rely on volunteers -- and volunteer numbers are dwindling rapidly AND the amount of time they can spend helping themselves and other is finite -- how should the district model change. I mean, were'nt you the person who wrote, "There is also somewhat of an unwillingness on the part of the people in Scouting to embrace change and adaptation."

I mean, if you are calling others out on not embracing change regarding scouting overall (STEM, gay leaders, gay scouts, etc.), why are you so unwilling to embrace change -- radical change even -- with regard to districts?

The way I read the transition document, if they boys pass the 2015 joining requirements and get one sign off on TF, then they are working on TF-FC and can continue with the old reqs through 2016.

I kinda feel like that is gaming the system and only kicking the can further down the road, but it is an option to consider.

 

(of course this thread blows up while I have my head buried in work this week!)

We thought about that approach but the PLC voted against it. They *did* want to get Scout out of the way under the 2015 requirements.

We will get a clean start on 2016 after the book is released....assuming it is released on time.

- why shouldn't the BSA start using what exists to reach out to boys that aren't interested in camping and hiking but would be interested in those nice STEM related merit badges (and if they learn to like to camp and hike because of their exposure to the Scouts, all the better).

Well, in short, because the main program is hemorrhaging and in desperate need of attention. BSA has proven they can't effectively juggle more than one ball at a time. Introducing STEM at this point is a severe risk to the health of BSA. 

So?   

 

I too have seen clueless WBs.   Reminds me of Carlin's comment about the "average" person.  "Half are worse than that."

 

How do YOU propose to make things better vs cursing the darkness?

 

I prefer to keeping trying.

As I have said in the other "district" thread, I focus on my unit. That's my job. When that job ends maybe I will help my district, but the role I have says I need to take care of my boys and my unit, so that's what I do.

Don't worry, if their STEM courses are as well thought out as the animation or game design or robotics or other technology MBs, these kids will have the technical skills of your average 7th grader.

 

By the way, my involvement as a UC is about 1-2 hrs a month and it's a bone worth tossing to the district to keep them at bay.  

We've offered to run their archery, shooting sports and other range activities. We have several NRA instructors and RSOs, two former SEALS, one sharpshooter, and a competitive marksman. We have all of our own gear including targets and throwers. Because the district pooh-baahs see running range sports as the biggest feather you can have, they keep that for themselves and tell us "thanks, but no thanks".

They'd have John Elway play water boy or tackle rather than put a ball in his hand if it means taking kudos away from themselves. Barked up that tree for too long. More power to those who don't mind continuing to bark....I'm all out of bark.

BW,

 

In Calico's defense, he's in the same school I'm in: see a problem work to solve it. Challenge is that sometimes there are too many problems and not enough folks.

 

Also another thing to consider, some units are smooth running ships with an abundance of leaders who can help out on the district . Other units, are barely surviving. My son's troop is growing, but we are having growing pains.

I get that. What I don't get is the attitude that comes with it. 

I accepted a role which comes with a responsibility to my kids and my unit. With as many kids as we have and as robust as a program as we have developed, there is little time for anything else. The success of our unit did not happen overnight, was the work of many involved parents who support what our kids wanted to do, and was not subsidized (despite years of asking for help) by council or district; so we focus on our jobs...making the unit work.

I'd love to help other units. We do that whenever we are asked OR when we see a problem that requires urgent response. We've trained their leaders, we've lent out our gear, we've had joint events/outings, etc. But just as you can't give every beggar a $5 as you walk down the street, so too can you not continue to fix the problems district/council has. There are far too many to fix. BSA has money, let them fix it. That *is* their job. We have a DE, let him come ask. Haven't seen him or a UC in years...going on 5 now.

Hmmm.  Not only am I a UC for another troop on the district level, I'm a SM of a struggling new troop start up.  Not only is my ASM of the new troop but she is also the DC for our district.

 

It's not an issue have having enough time for everything, it's an issue of making enough time for everything.  Excuses are nothing more than feeble attempts to explain failure.

Time is finite. I spend so much time on my unit there is literally nothing left after family, friends, work, religion and scouts. Someone has to lose out, guess that's my district/council.

So in other words, the new Scouts will do the requirements for Scout through First Class that are in the current handbook, but the handbook they will have is the new handbook, that doesn't have those requirements?

No. The new scouts (Class of 2016) will do Scout only during December using the old requirements. They will do TF-FC with the new requirements once the book is out in January. We will tell them not to get a book until January after the new books are out. For Scout we will just give them a duplicated page 17 which has the Scout requirements on it. Since they are Webelos and mostly AOL awardees, this information will be the same as in their CS Handbook.

Maybe what the BSA should do is publish the new handbook (at least the first printing, to be sold through the end of 2016) with an attached pamphlet in the back with the old requirements and places to sign them off. (And not charge any more for the pamphlet.) But past experience suggests there will be no pamphlet, and certainly not for free.

Or better yet, maybe BSA should only make changes to substantial things like requirements when they can delivery the updated book PRIOR to the implementation of the new requirements. It is like Microsoft announcing Windows 10 and selling it, but it not being activated until a month or so after you buy it. Poor timing on BSA's part.

I'm going to suggest that as part of the boards of review for all scouts in 2016 that when they are done with the rank they are working on - the board of review including advancement chair review the rules with the scout for what requirements the scout needs to use for their next rank (so if still working on 1st class they are fine til Dec 2016 I believe, but if they finish 1st class in 2016 they start the new requirements) and provide the scout a hand out to attach into existing book with the new requirements for their next rank(s).

That is what our BORs are doing too. As soon as you finish FC you move to the new requirements. Our PLC even built in a few "workshops" for the boys to understand the new requirements changes. I smiled when that was proposed by one of our first year scouts. He got the idea and now it is part of the plan. All I had to do was sit there (a la @@Stosh ).

If the training "stinks" then why aren't you holding up your hand and volunteering to be the next training guru for your district?  Let me guess - no time or no desire - so instead just sit back and gripe while the person(s) who are doing the training (who are also sacrificing their time and would likely say they don't have a lot of time either, but are taking away from family time or their own personal time) keep offering the "stinky" training to people taking the training. 

 

I am training my unit and my kids. I am fulfilling my role to keep the unit strong and deliver on the BSA promise to the boys and adults of my unit...which is what the program is about. We teach WRFA, first aid. CRP/AED, shooting sports, CERT/S&R, JLT (TLT) and leader-specific training. Our unit does all this because we don't trust district/council anymore to develop training that is not a total waste of time.

The council and the district's job is to find out what units need and spend the money they have on those needs, rather than 6 figure salaries for over-paid executives.

I think you have the role of district/council backwards. I am not there to serve them, they are there to serve my unit. They have money, we don't. My job says I am supposed to run a quality program and fulfill the ideals and mission of scouting for my kids. That's what I do. My job is NOT to do council and district's job for them.

If their model doesn't work then it is time for a new model that does.

Maybe the problem is that we expect children and adults to sign up to a movement for life.  Maybe the problem is we put too much emphasis on boy-led and patrol method.  Maybe the problem is we're trying to dictate too much structure onto a diverse population.

Our school systems expect a whole lot more independence of our children now then they did when we were kids. I didn't need to have a binder for each subject, take copious notes and practice every night for band or choir or sports. Soccer and baseball were in the spring, football in the fall. Band, choir and orchestra were electives with a modest amount of time required. Now everyone works year around, makes things mandatory and some even tie grades to attendance.

Society has amped up what is expected of these kids. One could argue that Boy Scouts -- and it's pressure to be boy-led -- is EXACTLY the type of program that would help these kids gain independence and think as a group. 

Actually i think the societal norm of "they are children until 26 years of age" and the rise of helicopter parents is the reason WHY we need to emphasize the patrol method. I'm tired of dealing with High schoolers parents, and especially the college students' parents, trying todo things for their "children" when they "child" is perfectly capable of doing it themselves.

Here, here.

Like it or not we're dealing with helicopter parents, kids who aren't used to being outdoors, middle-schoolers who aren't used to independence.  We can either adapt to that reality or as our current membership numbers show, continue sliding into oblivion. 

If we stay the course (thanks G. Bush) who is to say we slip into oblivion? Maybe we find our equilibrium at a much lower number, BUT those who stay scribe to the ideal on which Scouting was founded. We get those truly interested in an independent, boy-led outdoor program like B-P wanted.

Well, I guess for those (up to) 16 days the new Scouts (which is confusing since they won't have the Scout badge yet, but they are still Scouts) will have to look on the Internet for the new requirements for Scout. Or will the requirements on the Internet still be in draft form by then?

Don't know. From the podcast the person speaking for BSA seemed to toss the two dates out not realizing this would be an issue (or not caring it was an issue). Kind of hard to miss. We are encouraging Webelos to cross over in December this year so we can get them in under the wire BUT we will not advise them to get handbooks until the new ones are printed. It will eliminate any problems due to the BSA's lack of timing.

Yes, it is going to be a different time for every Scout, and it is going to be a burden, so we have to help the kids through it. 

Agreed. My concern is the lack of uniform understanding around the timeline. Many units I speak to erroneously think they have a year to work in the new requirements. Despite the FAQ and podcast being out there, many still have the wrong idea.

By "this" I assume you mean the lack of boy led, boy focused, boy centric activities with as few adults as possible involved?

Out west we do that. We require adults to register if they want to tag along. We require adults to volunteer a minimum of time if they want to be around. We require adults to get trained and take a position if they want to go anywhere. We have STRICT rules about what adults do during events. We literally sit around and cook, camp, etc. Our boys have learned to treat us as a patrol. When it's time to hike or canoe, they tell us.

I lament the same things you do. I think many of the younger parents really are more self absorbed than we were at that age. I think they've become more narcissistic because of how they were raised. They'd rather play golf or have girls night out then put in 5 hours on a service project.

I don't think WE let that happen. I think parents let that happen by being bad role models. My parents were always volunteering. I do that now. I hope my kids will follow my example.

The parents and kids who don't seem to care were taught that. We can try to fix a lot of things but we can't parent everyone.

BadWolf, LOL, in other words, they don't know what the rationale is, they're just doing something..LOL.

Yes, they're making it up. But they seem to be following the policy and initial process. Where they're making things up is where there is no process, but they seem to be following policy.

I suppose their rationale was to get the work done. Why they may have selected the process they did only they can answer.