mdsummer45

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! What a wonderful group. What a demonstration of the scout spirit.. total strangers took the time to read my problem and all of you have gone out of your way to provide answers to questions that my son should have be able to get from his troop leaders. Amazing...you guys are amazing!!!! My son called his Eagle advisor to ask about getting the application and was told to "find it on the internet" after my son told him that the site was down the Eagle advisor said ..."well....I don't know what to tell ya, just keep looking". You all are helping to restore my faith in scouts. After reading these posts my son said.. too bad I never got to experience this type of scout support in my time in scouts. I told him to remember all the help you guys have given him and he needs to remember even if things never work out for him he needs to pay it back down the road.

Would it be appropriate to identify the BSA council and district unit that my son is in. But not the actual Troop. Perhaps someone who is close by could help us on a more local level?(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)

At this point my son has not completed his Eagle Rank Application. Should he just download one from the internet? Should my son just fill it out and at the end of the troop committee mtg ask for signatures (no matter the out come)? The Troop Eagle Advisor requested a list of name from my son and yes that person's name is on the list of references. The advisor told my son that he would mail out the necessary forms for the reference people to complete. So I guess my son is suppose to trust that the eagle advisor will send out those forms.

My son has a question he would like me to put out there:

He was talking with his High School counselor today(as I mentioned earlier my son does a lot of computer work for the school) and was telling him about everything that is going on in his scouting life. My son was just asking for suggestions on how best to approach things at the troop committee meeting when his counselor said " Would it be possible for me to attend the meeting and speak on your behalf?"(my son said he never asked him to attend the counselor just up and volunteered) The counselor wants to attend the mtg or at the very least send a letter. My son did not know what to tell him. So the question is....is it permitted to have an outside person attend this committee meeting? is a letter permitted? Any thoughts???

Thank you again for all of your comments, advice, guidance and support. My son just told me the SM emailed him and told my son that he would give my son a copy of the letter at the troop committee meeting because he was traveling all week. I said...WHAT!!!!! no way... you need to have that letter before you step one foot into that mtg. My son just sent off this email:

Mr SM

Thank you for your email today. I did not realize that when you said in your email that you were traveling today (Tuesday) that you meant that you were travel all week. My mistake. Thank you for talking with me Monday night regarding scheduling an eagle scoutmaster conference with you. It is my understanding that at this time you continue to feel that you can not sign off on the following Eagle Scout Rank Requirements for me:

#2 Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life

#6 Take part in a scoutmaster conference

So that I may have a clearer understanding of your position, I am requesting a written statement from you listing the reasons that you feel that you can not sign off on these requirements. I would like to have this statement prior to the troop committee meeting so that I can address all of your concerns in a thoughtful manner.

You also suggested that I contact the Troop Committee Chairman, Mr. X, and request a special troop committee meeting so that I can present myself to them. I have taken your advice and I emailed Mr.X Monday night, March 30, 2009 requesting such a meeting.

I will be sending a copy of this email to Mr Y--Troop Advancement Chairman; Mr Z --Troop Eagle Advisor and Mr X--Troop Committee Chairman.

As you know I will be turning 18 on May 16, 2009. I look forward to your reply at your earliest convenience.

Thank you LisaBob...I hope someone can answer the question Lisabob has just posted...if the troop committee refuses to sign off on scout spirit ..does my son have any recourse regarding the appeals process? I can see them telling my son that it will be impossible for my son to rectify the situation given the short time frame.

John in KC

The CC and the SM are of one mind, they do have each others back. I think this special committee meeting will be for show and I have prepared my son for a negative outcome. He wants to see this to the end.

After rereading these posts and trying to remember exactly what was said in the letter... ...I think the SM in some way has giving my son a SM conference(it just has to happen as some one say its not a pass/fail thing) perhaps the sticking point is that in our troop the SM is also the person who decides whether or not the scout has meet the requirement of...'demonstrates scout spirit by living the scout oath and scout law in your everyday life'... the more I think about it the more I think that is the issue...Mr SM does not feel my son has meet this requirement (I do not think he gave my son any specific examples) but i do remember Mr SM used the phrase... It is my perception that you do not understand the scout law and perceptions are hard to change...or words to that effect. So that is why I think there is going to be a special troop committee meeting. Even though in the letter Mr SM clearly stated that in this troop he was the only person who could sign off on that requirement he is now passing the buck so to speak.

My son is in 4 honor society in high school and the vice president of 2 of them. He has participated in a sport since 10th grade. In addition to the 4 honor societies he is a member of other school clubs and participates in many competitions. He is ranked in the top 7% of his class. He has been accepted into all of the colleges he applied to and has received merit scholarships to all of them(we are lucky) he was also selected as a finalist in 2 very selective scholarship program at one of the colleges(we are still waiting to hear). He is planning to study Computer Engineering in college and his high school has trusted him with special computer related projects (ie maintaining the schools web page). Recently he has help his uncle's church with cooking and delivering meals for Habitat for Humanity. So....I do not think he would be where he is in school today if he was not "living the Boy Scout Oath and Law in his daily life".

Okay Folks

I just got off the phone with the Service Area Field Director. He was very helpful and asked me to explain the situation. He asked for my Units # and when I gave it to him he said...Oh, that's Mr SM I know him...when I told him that the letter the SM gave my son contained the phrase "please do not have your parents contact me" Mr FD stated ..that there are may parents who make the eagle project about them and not about the boy. So that is what he thought Mr SM was referring to(it's my sons project and not his parents) I told him that the letter had nothing to do with my son's eagle project since the project had been completed and signed off on by all parties involved. Mr FD told me that my son can request a District EBOR, Council EBOR and National EBOR after his 18th birthday. Does that sound right to you all? I am going to send a follow up email to MR FD restating what I thought I heard him tell me. That way I feel that if I misunderstood anything I will have the clarification in written form. If it is true that things can still occur after my sons 18th bd then I think we will keep plugging along jumping though the hoops('special troop committee mtg). After my son has truly left the troop level regarding this issue I will be calling all of the moms of my younger sons friends who are in the troop and let them know EVERYTHING!!!! Until then I think it is better to keep my mouth shut.

Vicki

COR=???

Thanks to all of you for your wonderful advice. Just a note: My son emailed his SM Monday night requesting a copy of the original letter that the SM gave him (Bad Mom threw away my sons copy--never dreamed that things would have escalated to this point ). The SM responded Tuesday am stating that "I am traveling today and do not have access to my office computer. I will try to send on my return." Tuesday night my son receives this email from the SM "Interested in the request. Have you lost the original?". Within 3 minutes my son responded to that email--Mr SM...."I had given the original copy to my mother for her to review and she had thrown it away. So, yes, I have lost the original". No reply from the SM was ever received so last night (Wednesday) my son resent his last email with the following PS "I just wanted to be sure that you received my reply to your question last night." Well this morning Mr SM replies "I thought I told you in my earlier reply that I was traveling all week......"

This is the frustration that my son has to deal with.. Mr SM's Tuesday morning email clearly stated that he was "traveling today". If he was going to be away all week why didn't he say that??!!!

My son just composed an email to send to his SM. I am too close to this to be objective. How does this sound to you.....

***************************************************************

Mr SM

Thank you for talking with me Monday night regarding scheduling an eagle scout master conference with you. It is my understanding that at this time you continue to feel that you can not sign off on the following Eagle Scout Rank Requirements for me:

#2 Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life

#6 Take part in a scoutmaster conference

At this time I am requesting a written statement from you listing the reasons that you feel that you can not sign off on these requirements.

You also suggested that I contact the Troop Committee Chairman, Mr X, and request a special troop committee meeting so that I can present myself to them. I have taken your advice and I have emailed Mr X requesting such a meeting.

I will be sending a copy of this email to Mr Y--Troop Advancement Chairman; Mr Z--Troop Eagle Advisor and Mr W Troop Committee Chairman.

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you

******************************************

Any comments or suggestions before he sends this?

John in KC

clarification please...."CC"=?

After looking on the district website it appears that our district does not have a DE. They list District Chairman, District Commissioner, District Director (who I have called and left a message for him to call me) and Advancement Chairman.(there are other but those are the one listed at the top of this list so I guess they are the biggies). They all have email address (except for one) should I call them all or send out one email to all of them explain the situation? I do not want to appear stupid...but ...I just do not know the appropriate course of action...I am in uncharted water. One more "dumb" question..should I call/email them or should that come from my son...I think he is going to be nervous doing this...he is too trusting and he keeps thinking that things will be different at this special committee meeting. I think that trust is a combination of youthful ignorance and fear. :^) At this point I don't trust any of these troop committee members.

I'm sorry but I am not sure what some of the abbreviations stand for... DE? And I am quickly learning the "chain of command". As I posted earlier (I think) this SM holds 3 district positions beside his role as SM so all of this people may be his "buddies".

It appears that our SM is the only one who can sign off on the requirement: demonstrates scout spirit........scout law in your everyday life. So the SM is also refusing to sign off on this requirement. Don't know if I ever mentioned that..how can one person be judge and jury??? Maybe that's why the SM said to ask for a special troop committee mtg. I'm so confused ..is this the SM trying to save face by pushing it off on another group of people?

Neither my husband nor myself are part of the "inner circle" of this troop. When my son first bridged over to scouts the troop would not allow any new scout parents to go on any outings, so the 2nd yr my husband went on 2 trips and after the 2nd trip he informed me that he would never go on another trip with this group of men. He said that he was made to feel less than welcome. These men are a tight group who live and breath scouts and unless you are will to devote 100% of your free time to scouts they are not interested(my son is the only one in his age group who does not have a father as a scout leader, any boy whose father was not a leader left scouting, my son is the only one who has stayed. 10 boys bridged over w/ him and only 4 have stayed with scouting)

My son is no more argumentative than any other other almost 18 y/o. LOL The only situations that he can think of are that:

His attendance dropped off during his jr yr of high school (although that is VERY common in this troop (even the SM son went MIA during his jr yr) My sons attendance since May '08 has been on target and he has participated in almost every outing.

The only other situation that he was involved in was this past Oct '08 (two weeks before he received "the letter".) He attended the WEBLOS Camporee they arrived late and the 2 boys (same age and rank as my son) who were the SPL for this trip were having trouble getting the younger scouts to get things moving,,unloading, setting up camp site etc. So my son who has been the Asst Senior Patrol leader for the entire troop started directing the younger scouts to get moving. (later my son will be told that he should have not demonstrated this leadership). A bad decision was made by all(including the adult leadership in attendance) to allow 5 boys in be in one large tent. Both of my sons and my younger sons friends were in that tent. thing became loud and while my older son kept telling the others to be quiet 2 of them continued which cause a leader from another troop to come over and tell them to BE QUIET. One of the leaders must have heard this & came over and ordered the boys out of the tent --bare feet, sock , no jacket--into the cold and then proceed to yell and I do me yell at them and specifically berated my oldest saying that he never shows any leadership...my son listened to the man then said "Mr XYZ it's late , I'm tired , I need to go back to the tent" and he got up and left. The other boys said can we go and the reply Mr XYZ gave them was...I don't give a sh-t what you do. The other boys got up and left back to the tent. There are other situations which occured on that outing BUT my son was not involved in any of them. The night they returned the SM called and said he heard there was a problem on the trip and wanted to have a meeting with the boys and their parents. At that meeting the adults leaders who were on the trip did not attend. At the meeting the SM asked who wanted to tell him what happened...my son looked around the room and the younger scouts were all looking down and he also felt that he should be the one to explain thing because he was the oldest. He explained what happened and acknowledged that perhaps he should have pushed harder for the boys to be quiet but that he was tired, it was late so he tried to go to sleep. He asked the SM if he could ask a question..SM said sure..He asked if the SM felt MR XYZ acted in the proper manner...the SM said yes he saw nothing wrong with what MR XYZ did.. my son said(& this is where I personally think the current problem the SM has with my son lies)" Do you think it is okay for an adult to curse at us?" the SM did not answer..so my son said" I'm just trying to understand how you feel about an adult leader using curse words". The SM said to my son in a loud voice " That's enough". My son was not disrespectful to the SM and I even asked another parent who was in the room if he thought my son was disrespectful to the SM and was told no. Personally, I think the SM felt my son embarrassed him in front of the other parents. I think he embarrassed himself by not answering the question. Two weeks later the letter arrived. Coincidence?? I think not.

Rick

our troops eagle adviser (who is not the SM--in our troop the SM does not approve the eagle project although he does sit on the committee the SM does not have a vote as to approving or not approving the project ) signed off on the approval on both the advisor line and then put the initials of the council/district advancement committee member on that line followed by the advisors initials. I guess this troop has been told they can do that.

Thanks all..this HAS been going on since Nov '08. Both my son and I felt that the SM was just giving my son "the talk" ...trying to scare him....the troop has a history of holding on the the scout until close to the 18th bd so that the older boys still attend the meeting. Once any boy gets Eagle they are gone. So since my son had ~6mos until he turned 18 he felt that riding it out and waiting until late March to ask for the SM was appropriate. That is why my son was stunned when the SM told him he had not changed his mind. The SM is accusing my son of not making any attempts to contact him to set up a meeting once my son received "the letter" he told my son that he thought my son was indifferent.. since my son did not make any attempt to contact him. Even after my son told him that he asked for a mtg and was continually told "talk to me later" and even sent an email to the SM the SM said" I never got that" my son even produced a copy of the dated email and the SM only said I never got it. Funny he received every other email my son has sent , everyone but that one. My son said that he stopped asking because he felt that if he continued to ask it would bee seen as bugging the SM... The SM said well, you should have bugged me.

My son needs your help(and I guess as him mom I need your help too). My son will be 18 in approx. 7.5 wks. He has completed his Eagle project(10/08 and signed off by troop 2/09) he has completed all of his merit badges. He is now ready to have his SM conference and herein lies the problem...the SM gave him a letter (late Oct '08....after my son had completed his eagle project) stating that he(SM) did not feel that he(SM) could give my son the SM conference . No actual reason were given the letter stated that it was the SM 'perception' that my son was not eagle material. My son is not perfect and has made mistakes but so has most every other scout in the troop including others who have received eagle. (To be fair I do not have the letter in front of me so I am writing from memory.) My son approached the SM on at least 2 occasions after receiving the letter because my son wanted to talk to the SM and find out exactly what the problem was. The SM either told my son to "talk to me later" or was not avail to talk. Therefore my son sent the SM an email requesting a meeting. That email was not answered by the SM. Therefore my son decided that he would just continue along finish up the last 2 merit badges and then in late March '09 approach the SM again to request the SM conference....that leads us to the present. March 23 my son approaches the SM to ask for a conference and was again told " talk to me later" March 25 my son attends a PLC mtg and again asks for a conference and is told " Talk to me Monday(3/30) so Monday nite again my son asks the SM for a conference and the SM says I have not changed my mind, I can not give you a conference,I question your character, you appear to be a loner. The SM said that my son could ask the troop committee chair to set up a special mtg. My son was stunned...but handled it like an adult and said thank you and walked outside. He was crushed...after gathering himself he went back to the meeting and at the end went up to the SM and troop committee chair and requested the special meeting. The SM actual had the nerve to say to my son that he was surprised that my my son wanted the mtg because it did not seem to him that my son was very upset after being told that he would not have his SM conference.. My son said to him...I was trying to react as an adult, what did you expect me to do...create a scene? The SM made no comment. WE need HELP/ADVICE...time is short...do we contact the district chairperson and let them know what is happening....the SM hold 3 positions within the local district council....My son is planning to create handouts to give to all of the troop committee members at the special mtg which will list the characteristics noted in the scout law and identify how he feels he exhibits those traits. I want to attend the special mtg and I would like to have his high school counselor either attend or write a letter in support of my son. Any thoughts??....sorry this is soooo long.