matthillnc

Ed,

I don't know which Proverbs 4:7 you are looking at... mine says:

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

If your version says, "though it cost you all you have," that could mean many different things. Yes, of course, money, but someitmes the cost of doing something is losing one's friends, family, home, etc. Not always about money... And if the verse is talking about money... then maybe it is just a prediction of how high college tuition would be in 2005. LOL... I am spending all money and more for wisdom and understanding, in fact, I'll be about $20,000 in debt after my second year of college.

I'm not going to debate the Bible with you.... I don't know how this conversation become so nasty in this Forum.... It started off okay and we all stayed on topic... the topic of Gay Parents.... now we have just strayed way too far. Its time for this thread to be over with.

Thank you, once again, for your comments Prairie Scouter!

I looked up Proverbs 4:7.... To me, it seems that in the Book of Proverbs Wisdom and Understanding are important, it is stressed quite often.

Wisdom and Understanding areimportant if one is to live with humanity. We must all gain knowledge and understanding of ourselves and each other and the world around us. Doing so helps us to understand where others might be coming from, even though we may not agree, and teaches us how to love each other despite our differences.

Proverbs 4:7 is simply saying, Get Wisdom and after you get Wisdom (i.e. book knowledge), get understanding (i.e. how to apply that book knowledge in your life).

How do you interpret it Ed?

Thank you Prairie_Scouter! The Bible is interpreted by many different people to mean many different things. And yes, I do study the Bible, I just don't pick out verses here and there. I am actually going to Episcopal/Anglican seminary after my undergraduate work to study Church History and Theology.

When I read James 5:12, I hear... "Don't take any oaths, just say yes or no, let your yes be yes and your no be no... tell the truth and do not take oaths. Just tell the plain old truth."

I believe this so firmly that when I am "sworn" into Student Government possitions I do not take their oath... I simply affirm my truth. That is what the verse is telling us to do, in my opinion anyway: Affirm your turht... there is no need to swear it.

The Bible is open to interpretation, different people see it different ways and the verse from James has proven this point within this Forum. Do any of you study the Bible? There is more to the verses concerning homosexuality than what meets the eye. I suggest you check it out and study it.

MATT HILL

Believing that homosexuality is a sin is just that... a belief. We all have different beliefs.

But whether homosexuality is or isn't a sin has nothing to do with it.... There are "sinful" parts to Scouting that are widely accepted, such as the Scout Oath... The Bible says in James 5:12... "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

Taking an oath is sinful, yet ALL Boy Scouts EVERYWHERE take an oath. ooops... the BSA is purpetuating sin... OH NO!

Hi everyone, I have been gone to a conferene in Illinois since Tuesday, so that is why you haven't seen me in here.

I won't take long to respong to this whole conversation.

OldGreyEagle asked what the goal of this conversation was because it wasn't going to change the policy and it will not, most likely, change any one's opinions.

The goal is this (and it was one of the things I actually was learning at the conference this week which was a leadership training conference):

Conversation is not always meant to change people's opinions. Conversation on a topic or issue, alone, will never do that. Of course it is possible that a person's opinion can change after conversation on an issue and it happens every day in our world.

The goal of my original post and the other posts and the goal of this whole thing is not to fight with each other or laugh at the forum posts but to inspire action.

Conversation does not change policy or opinions, but it can cause people to relize where they stand and what their emotions are. Once people are aware of themselves, they can be inspired to take action in order to help change anything in the world.

We live in a world of possibility and there must be a healthy disregard for the impossible. In 2005, my work to change the BSA policy might not change anything now, but my vision is that one day the BSA policy against gay youth and adult members will no longer exist. Although that vision may be unrealistic for 2005 and although I may not be able to accomplish this in my lifetime, I can help to create conversation and work towards my vision, hoping that what I do will inspire others to take similar or different action in achieving the same goal.

Martin Luther King, Jr. did not live to see his goal of a de-segregated America, but his vision came to be after his death through his conversation and action which ultimately caused others to take action for generations to come and make his vision become a reality.

First of all, being gay is not a decision. No matter what any person says or believes, being gay is not a choice I made. If you were asked to "change" your orientation from straight to gay, could you do it? Could you turn off all attraction for the opposite sex and make yourself be attracted, emotionally, spiritually and physically, to a person of the same sex?

Secondly, I make the correlation between a gay parent being told to not participate in Scouting activities and then a child not being able to participate because for some events, especially for young Scouters such as Tiger Scouts and Cub Scouts, parental involvement and presence is REQUIRED for some events such as camping trips or father/son camporees. My father was never really involved in my Scouting experience and I was LUCKY to have my friend's father act in his stead. If he had not taken the responsibility of being my legal guardian on those trips in Cub Scouts, I would not have been able to go. In fact, there were numerous Cub Scout trips which my little brother could not participate in because my father did not want to go and no one was willing to act as his guardian once my friend, his father and I moved onto the Boy Scout Troop.

Also, do you not think that it does not hurt a youth when you tell him he is no longer wanted by his friends, well, practically his family. I was all of sudden told to no longer come around or be around or participate in events that pretty much made up my entire childhood with people I had grown up with. My friends and their parents were more than just fellow Scouters... they were like my family. So much for family sticking together I guess.

My dismissal and the BSA policy shows what the BSA really is. I'm not talking about individual Scouters, for I know that there are many people involved in Scouting which take the principals of Scouting seriously. In fact, I still come in contact with just a few of my former Troop mates and their parents (the same ones who did not agree with the policy and wanted me to stay).

The BSA policy shows that the Boy Scouts of America, Inc. is nothing but hypocritical. The Scout Law includes such principals as trustworthiness, honesty, loyalty, friendliness and kindness. All of those principals were broken when I was told to leave and also when other Scouts across the nation have been told to leave. How is is trustworthy, friendly or kind to tell a 14 year old boy to go away and tell him, basically, we don't want you, the Scouts don't want you, you aren't worthy enough to be wanted. How is it honest if I would have had to lie to stay in the Scouts? I did what I was supposed to do... I told the truth, I was honest. I should have been able to expect that my fellow Scouts would be trustworthy, friendly and kind enough to love me and accept me no matter what.

Scouting is more than just an organization. It is family. When a boy becomes involved in Socuting at a young age and then is told to leave once he reaches a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation, it is not right to tell him to leave the people who he has come to love since being a young child.

Discrimination by the Boy Scouts of America causes hurt by making abuses to gay youth's self-esteem, self image and psyche. Adolescence is such a hard time for teenagers today.... Add in questions of sexuality and the rejection that gay people face in society on a DAY TO DAY basis.... its no wonder why the suicide rate amongst gay and lesbian youth is so high.

The Boy Scouts of America breaks the principals contained with the Scout Law when is discriminates against and hurts youth. Our youth are to precious to be discriminated against and hurt, for they are our nation's most precious gift to the world... they are our future Senators, Congressmen, teachers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, clergy, parents, military servicemembers, and maybe even President.

I will end with this:

If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The Holy Gospel of our Lord according to Saint Matthew 18:6 New Revised Standard Version

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

In response to Acco40 and the question of what "avowed" means:

In my experiences with the Boy Scouts and my dismissal from the Scouting program, "avowed" simply means that it is known you are gay. I never participated in any sexual activities with anyone in my Troop. Sexual activity has nothing to do with it and is a completely seperate matter.

In my case, I started a Gay-Straight Alliance at my high school and there was an article about it in my local paper, The Winston-Salem Journal, and my school paper, The Pine Whispers. The Journal article can be viewed here: http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/media-press/a1_wsj_09122000.htm and the Pine Whispers article here: http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/media-press/a2_pwrjr_10062000.htm

The simple words of "Hill, who is homosexual...." within the article was enough to make me an "avowed" homosexual, even though I had up to that point never engaged in any sexual activity, gay or straight.

But from other responses to my original post on this issue.... it seems to me as though some of you would want to ban gay parents from being active within their sons' Scouting experiences. If the BSA does that, then they need to revise their membership policies to state: "We will ban any person who is homosexual or any Scout and his parents if his parents are homosexual." If the BSA is going to start bannign gay parents and thereby stop the participation of their sons' then they are not only discriminating against gays... but also against children.

May I stress... CHILDREN!!!!!! How is it even close to being moral and ethical for the BSA to discriminate against (and thereby hurt) CHILDREN!

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

Again, if anyone would like to know the history behind my dismissal from Scouting, you can see it here: http://www.freewebs.com/triads4a/history.html

Okay... so BSA policy is that no "avowed homosexual" can be a member or leader in the Boy Scouts.

What about Boy Scouts who have gay parents? Parents are supposed to play a vital role in the Scouting experiences of their boys, especially fathers. What about gay parents? The BSA policy doesn't address this issue.

What happens if there is a boy with a gay dad? Can his dad be active in the Troop too? Is he allowed to go on camping trips with his son and his son's Troop? If not, what about Cub Scouts who have to have a parent go along with them on camping trips or, if not, the kid doesn't go.

My point is this... It seems to me as though the BSA policy not only discriminates against gay youth or adults who want to be youth members or adult leaders, but also kids who have gay parents.

What do you all think?

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

Merlyn Said: "Even the BSA's official legal website says that they exclude atheists and agnostics."

Don't forget gays... the legal site says the BSA exlcudes them too.

The issue of discrimination does not just hit upon one or two groups... it hits on various groups.... I think that its sad that the Illinois case didn't tackle the gay discrimination part of it.

First of all... its UNCG, not UNC.... way big difference.... LOL

I'm majoring in History, minoring in Religious studies. I hope to go on to Seminary (Episcopal/Anglican) to receive my Masters of Divinity and Masters of Theological Studies, become a priest and maybe one day get my Ph.D. in Church History. Hopefully one day I will be a professor of Church history, an activist, lobbyist or politician. WHo knows?

In my opinion, from my experiences in my old Troop and Council, the BSA is a religious organization, in that it is an organization that recognizes and operates with religion, whether that be Catholicism, Anglicanism, other Protestant denominations, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.

In every Troop meeting, we said a prayer... at every council event, a preayer was said, Sunday night Vespers was a REQUIREMENT at our summer camp, Camp Raven Knob. Religion was everywhere, but it was never made out to be one religion or the other, prayers were always to God, or Heavenly Father, and the only time I remember Christ being mentioned was in my all-Christian Troop. I am sure that there are all Muslim Troops that mention Allah, or all-Jewish Troops that call God Yahweh.

I see no problem with religion and the Boy Scouts, but I also think that the BSA should allow atheists to join, as long as they don't try to change the religious nature of the Boy Scouts.

Boys in the Boy Scouts are not called to believe in set rule of beliefs or doctrine... all they are asked is to live their lives according to their own religion's standards and live their lives to the best of their ability and to serve our nation and God.

Yes, I meant to say "Defense Department" in my blog.... brain fart.. blah LOL I went and edited my blog for that. (This message has been edited by matthillnc)

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forums here on Scouter.com, but I have run across things on the forums before on google searches and what not.

My name is Matt Hill, I'm 19 years old and a former Boy Scout here in Winston-Salem, NC. I am going into my second year of my university studies at The University of North Carolina at Greensboro in August.

When I was 14, I was dismissed from Scouting because I am gay. Oh well, I guess... I have tried to raise awareness on the issue here in my hometown and in North Carolina hoping that there might be a day when no Scout will ever have to be outcast from his friends and his peers and the organization he loves so dearly jsut because he might think or feel differently from other boys. I just want to make it clear that I am not anti-BSA, I am just against their membership policies which discriminate against gay youth (and atheists too).

MATT HILL

www.MattHillNC.com

PS- For more about my dismissal and other stuff, visit http://www.freewebs.com/triads4a/history.html http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/public_life.html and http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/cases/hill/

Old press items concerning my efforts are available at http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/writings.html

Hi, everyone... I'm new to the scouter.com as a registered user, but I have seen stuff on here before.

The Government should not fund the BSA... not because it violates the 1st Amendment (I agree with those of you who say funding the BSA is not a violation of the 1st Amendment), but because it discriminates against the youth of America.

The Boy Scouts OPENLY and WITHOUT REGRET discriminate against gay and atheist YOUTH (as in children, the future of our great nation).

I find it shameful that the BSA discriminates against youth and I find it shameful that my taxpayer money is being used to fund the hurting and discriminating of more youth like myself.

I'm not anti-BSA, but I am anti-the BSA which discriminates against youth. Heck, I was a Boy Scout, I can't be anti-Scouts, because I love the Scouts too much and love everything that they ever taught me, but they shouldn't be funded by the Government. No group which hurts youth should be funded by the Government.

I've posted an entry at my blog about the Court ruling, read it if you like:

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com/2005/07/judge-rules-boy-scouts-cannot-receive.html

~MATT HILL~

www.MattHillNC.com

P.S. - And since my name has appeared in these forums before, http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=68779&p=16 , let me remind you all... I'm Matt Hill, now 19 years old, the 14 year old Scout who was kicked out for being gay in December 2000, formerly of Troop 715, New Philadelphia Moravian Church, Old Hickory Council, Winston-Salem, NC

For More Info:

http://www.freewebs.com/triads4a/history.html

http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/public_life.html

http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/cases/hill/

http://vernonrobinson.com/cgi-data/news/files/104.shtml(This message has been edited by matthillnc)