marinelaw

Thats very interesting, as we have never made a request or attempted to conduct business with sea base. This is a general marine law/safety concern issue. Seem like your source is getting creative to save face. The military refers to that as CYOA.

(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Present this document already! Who was it that signed this agreement? If do you have it...post it, I have even forewarded you my personal email so you can do so, scan the actual fax you have apparently recieved clearly stating this. Produce it. Every marine insurance company that was contacted reguarding coverage, including our own, states that a vessel documented for commercial uninspected 6 pack charter, that is operating with more than 6 passengers would clearly void the vessels policy! So how can a vessel operate safely when uninsured by it's carrier?

Still waiting......

Why the private response?

...Still waiting to see this document posted with authorizing signiatures, Bob....Mich....

you now have my private email (which I expect, you will respect)Scan it and fwd it to me... please.

(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Post it with the authorizing signiature and lets have a look see!

Amazing that within 48 of the USCG saying they have no such document to fax me, that you got one. If you have a signed copy form the USCG office in charge....post it better yet scan it and post it so the authorizing signiature can be seen proper, lets have a look see at it. Better yet, your friends at the base should po(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

It seems as though you are from the "boys will be boys" school who allows these poorly trained and poorly led children to continue this irresponsible behavior with a slap on the wrist so little Johnny does not have poor self esteem for being marked as a bad seed!. Seems a shame. This comparison is simply a great example of how so many boys are allowed to get away with improper and stupid things due to the fact they... well, they're Boy Scouts soooo, that is really a pathetic approch to proper leadership. Leading by example should be focused on. They are Scouts so they get special treatment. Please dont tell me you support the parents who enabled this activity, or that you would support any BSA affiliated activity which is illegal un scout like. Or do you just take pride when special consideration is taken for those who are paying their dues to contine paying national salaries, this is rediculous. The National staff member who molested god knows how many children at the Base, before he was finally stood up to by PROPER Boy Scouts, was probably the Scout who was slapped on the wrist and saw that he could continue through life with out the responsibility of consiquence for his actions until the unthinkable occured. You seem so dead set against the issues of law and safety one would think you are in bed with them!

HOW FRUSTRATING!!! with these incomplete posts!

I'll repost again later..(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

This is a good comparison to another poost in the forums right now!!!

Perhaps we should compare views on the underage drunken Eagle scout from Mass., who thinks nothing is illeagal or wrong of having his parents throw a boozefest for underage children in his honor(aside the fact that the cops showed up). If t(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

The jones act is irrelevant to this matter, I responded with that for the question of foriegn or US flag. When questioning the USCG Miami I also found they were granted a "stay of execution" if you will. I was also told it expires JULY. This was offered so they had time to comply, which they don't seem to be doing as boats are still carrying 8. I feel Gags is on the right track in his cconcerns. Why are the Boy Scouts allowed special privlage in this matter and allowed to operated above CG regulation. A charterboat, is a charterboat, is a charterboat. Would a criminal be given special treatment because of who he worked for? Would the sentance be ignored or less if he was afiliated with the Boy Scouts. Would a malpractice suit be unwarranted if a physician worked for a hospital as opposed to having his own practice? All pilots and airlines are regulated by a federal office, they all have the same requirements for licensing as well as insurance and rules to which they must abide by. that is why we have regulations is it not? Why is their bias here. I would venture to say there is very few operators if any, chartering through the Sea Base that would come close to to the experience at sea I have logged throughout my lifetime. I would also mention if I were allowed to carry two extra paying passengers on every trip I have taken, I could have retired years ago with the extra money as well as saved thousands on commercially inspected vessels. We (commercially) all pay insurance coverage for certain limits of operative liability as well as are licensed respectively to operate under these regulations. On larger boats that hold COI's(cert. of inspection) for inspected vessels allowed to operated with over 6 capacity, there is rules that apply. Would an inspected vessel with a COI to carry 49 suddenly be allowed to carry 65...absolutely not, they would be fried if caught. On uninspected vessels there are rules and standard regulation that apply as well. We all must comply appropriately or we would live in the wild west again. Did that disgusting employee who molested the 4 children at Sea Base last year get excused from his crimes because he worked "at Sea Base"....your damn right he didn't! What do you think their parents were told that he was given special permission to do so because he was a Boy Scout Employee. Lets be serious here, why does it always have to reach injury or death before someone acts when the Scouts are involved. This is suppopsed to be an organization of Honesty, Integrity, Loyalty, and honor is it not? I hate to preach to the choir but some dont seem to be listening!! Are we now just another organization of substandard activity or are we THE BOYS SCOUT OF AMERICA!!! a group youth and men alike who should uphold all of our founding values It seems some need to review abasic pricipal here or refrain from leading..

On my honor . . .

By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.

. . . I will do my best . . .

Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.

. . . To do my duty to God . . .

Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

. . . and my country . . .

Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.

America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.

. . . and to obey the Scout Law; . . .

The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.. . . To help other people at all times; . . .

There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.

. . . To keep myself physically strong, . . .

Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.

. . . mentally awake, . . .

Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.

. . . and morally straight.

To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.(This message has been edited by marinelaw)(This message has been edited by marinelaw)(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

many more informative follow ups posted in the open discussion forum

BW read the rest of the posts. The boats are chartered by the BSA and sublet to the crews they bring in. When the CG went in to stop it, it halted immediately crews were removed form boats in transit and vessels returned as well. They hired stand in boats to cover the additional passengers by complying to the 6 max rule. This accordi(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Sorry this did not seem to post the whole msg.

BW read the rest of the posts. The boats are chartered by the BSA and sublet to the crews they bring in. When the CG went in to stop it, it halted immediately crews were removed form boats in transit and vessels returned as well. They hired stand in boats to cover the additional pass(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Sound like these are some real bright adults! Seems the apple didn't fall far from the tree either. One can only hope these adults will be punished severely for their stupidity and lack of concern. I would think such a fool could not make Eagle, I mean they are supposed to be exemplary Boy Scouts correct. Sounds like revocation of(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Thank you fotoscout! These vessels are documented under US flag. As you can not operate a foriegn flag vessel for commerce in the US without a waiver of the "Jones Act".

Apparently the CG went directly to the Sea Base. Most likely, due to the fact that they are the organization in charge of the operation. They(FSB) charter the boats from the owners and then basically sublet them to the Scouts they bring in. It seems as though there is false information passed on to the owners here as well to obtain signiatures on these charter agreements. Now, and this comes directly from a 'scout boat' owner at sea base, as they have raised this concern in the past to their superiors. They were told by the powers that be at FSB they do have approval from the USCG to operate in this manner. Lets face it, if your boss told you to do something and that it was okay, it must be, as your 'authority' has given this permission. Commercially speaking, I would agree with you that the owners/operators would be liable as well. Being the Captain, they are ultimately the governing body over their vessel. Now we need to keep in mind that unfortunately job security and their futures at Sea Base come into to play here.

Commercially speaking if I was told I had to operate over legal ocupancy, and that I was approved for such operation, you would need to provide me proof of this from the governing authority(the CG MSO(marine safety office or marine inspections office) granting me legal permission, prior to obtaining a charter contract for such operation. Whether it be a copy or an actual certification document being vessel specific form the USCG directly I would demand something to protect myself, prior to obtaining a signed contract from me. Operating without it certainly puts the not only the vessel, but the captains license, the vessels federal documentation certificate, the vessels commercial insurance policy as well as their proffessional reputation, and business at risk. Not to mention the passenger risk or the fines which are applicable. Contact a scout boat owner directly through one of their websites, several of them have one for charter privately. You can note that they all state 6 as there maximum legal passengers. Adding more passengers surely raises the take, so why do they not advertise 8? Simply put because it would be illegal to carry more than 6 on an uninspected vessel. Not only does a vessels Documentation for uninspected operation clearly reads these limits, but the commercial insurance policy covering the vessels legal limits contains such specifics as passenger operation as well as legal areas of operation. Such unlawful operation would clearly void such policies.

Start questioning for your own protection. If you think about it should the God forbid unfortunate arise, Maritime law would find you aboard an overcapacity, illegal charterboat with no insurance. Knowing this leaves the responsibility on parents and leaders too!

Here are a few of the scout boats websites to see the legal capacities of the uninspected vessels. (obtained from boats and crews at the base)

http://www.calypsosailing.com/Sailboat%20Poet.htm

http://www.sailsalacia.com

http://www.dutchlove.com/cost.htm

There is more you just need to find them, but this should sufice

Check the discussion and facts being discussed in the open discussion forum. Lets not forget when dealing with the Staff at the base you are dealing with salesmanship. Have you been presented with these facts at all by them? Might look into the USCG laws for safe commercial operation. Inquire with Sea Base as t

It's not just a thought, it's a fact which was confirmed by the USCG Marine officer mentioned in the earlier post. I am a concerned commercial marine operator/supporter of the BSA with a family lineage of Eagles scouts and past attendant of the Coral Reef program (when I asked, the FSB Director told me they were licensed by the CG for such operation). I was also made aware of this fact through a proffessional mariners forum which discovered this as well. Upon our findings and questions as to this operation of uninspected vessels with more than 6 passengers, a gorup of owner/operators began to inquire with the Coast Guard as to the application process to operate legally with more than 6 onboard an uninspected vessel. Believe you me, we all figured that if they were operating this way, being a National Boy Scout organization chartering commercially, that certainly this must be legal somehow. Needles to say, all our inquiries to this office, as well as the CG office in Washington DC found there is no such certification available, we became just as shocked! The rest of the information as to the shut down and illegal operation since 1996 and the coast guards concern for the unsafe and illegal operation of commercial chartered vessels was obtained from the LT. CMDR in charge of such operations. They were responsible for the immediate shut down upon their findings. This isnt' fiction we are dealing with, these are the fact of the issue. You seem to be strongly opposed to the idea, that hat such illegal activity would be conducteed by such a well respected organization responsible for the health and safety of our children. Are you on staff at Sea Base, or the National Council which is partaking in the smoke and mirrors of hiding the facts? It seems such information would only grow concern in scout leaders and parents alike. I dont feel an angered position oposing the facts of the issue will benefit or aid in its rectification in anyway, you seem to be really upset by this information for some reason.

This does not apply to kayak trips and rowboats or canoes that are troop owned or used at camps and such. We are talking Charter boats here. Vessel which are hired for commercial operation with licensed Captains. When refering to the FSB and vessels owned by the BSA, you need to understand that, the sailboats used at the base are not owned by the BSA, they hired for charter. They are all independantly owned and operated charteboats. The Sea Base "charters" these vessels from their owners. ANY uninspected vessel used in Commercial operation for paying passengers is subject to the law of "Not more than 6 passengers". This law applies to any charter vessel, reguardless of who owns it. The only vessels allowed to carry more than 6, are subject to USCG Commercial inspection to obtain certification. For a vessel to obtain this C.O.I (certificate of inspection) it is subject to strict areas of commpliance. These areas cover extremely specific aspects of the vessel as well as it systems. Some examples would include water tight collision bulkheads foreward, certain types and numbers of liferafts, other safety equipment as well as firefighting and crew requirements, things even as stringent as using wire nuts anywhere in the boats electrical system is non-compliant. The vessels the BSA uses for its Sea Exploring program(which carry more than 6) are all USCG Commercially inspected. They carry appropriate COI's because of their strict compliance to annual inspection and bi-annual out of water hull inspections. These vessels are also properly crewed and equiped for carrying such numbers. The vessels running with more than 6 passengers are operating against the law. When the Sea Base was shut down earlier this season BY THE USCG, they were frantic to hire additional boats to reduce the numbers to 6 passengers on each vessel in order to continue its charter operation. All of this information can be found through the Coast Guard web sites. Simply research the federal regulations covering Uninspected "6 pack" or "OUPV"vessels for coastwise operation as well as the regulations covering inspected vessels. This CG link will clearly express the limitations of an uninspected passenger vessel.

www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/ 2004CommFishDigest/2004CommercialDigestCoastGuard.pdf

Nothing to gain by breaking the law? Do the math for how much revenue the Coral Reef Sailing Program generates through chartering boats for us. Avg 34 boats at 26 weeks a year at the not so great rate of $4400/week(they even post the illegality on their web site as 6min/8MAX!!) Through minimal research you can find comparable charter vessels/voyages operating within the limits of the laws/with lic. crew at considerable saving. The vessel owners are getting $2100 of the $4400 Fee. If you dont want to bother here it is. 26(weeks)*34(boats)=884 884(total week trips)*4400 US$=3,889,600 Million Dollars. Reduce that by what THEY pay for the boats YOU charter (1,638,000) leaves the BSA with a nice $2,251,600.00 for providing??? two cheap unit priced meals on property a patch and maybe $50 woth of bulk/unit priced food for the week. All vessels carry their own insurance and are owner operated. Those that are not owner operated pay their own crews out of pocket. I wont begin to cover the overloaded/undercrewed scuba that we saw. This I have yet to research deeply but being a diver, I know the Captain has to be a Licensed Divemaster as well. must also carry a licensed divemaster onboard as a mate when carrying more than 6, above the instructor/instructors that are in the water with the students. Perhaps this too should be looked at. Simply call the Coast Guard and inquire as to the laws and regulations governing vessel carrying more than six passengers for hire, they are happy to help.(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Sorry, I failed to add the SEA between "National BSA" and "base". YES, I am referring to the "Florida National High Adventure Sea Base, Islamorada Florida". Our friends in Irving, more importantly the directors of Sea Base, are failing to inform us that they are and have been "operating illegally SINCE 1996 when an MUO(mutual undrstanding of organizations) expired due to changes in Admiralty and Maritime Law".(LT. CMDR Bates/USCG Marine inspections office Miami Fl.). The program was shut down by the Coast Guard once this year already due to this fact, but we all knew this....right? Wrong. After returning from the FSB, discussions found that they obviously have a lack of respect for rules. It was obvious to a number of our parents that they turn a blind eye to the 300lb high adventure weight regulation rule for safety, this would not happen at Philmont, and quite possibly the 13 years old age requirement, from what was seen at the base. One child was asked his age by a parent, his quick response was "ele....thirteen". What is going on there? Our Captains didn't seem to have any answers either, it seems they are kept in the dark as well. They too were aware of a number of things that "are not right...but, won't change" Apparently there is quite a bit "sliding" under its current leadership. We were also told of a veteran skipper who was fired after refusing to leave the dock with an inexperienced crew of children, during small craft warning conditions, when he was demanded to by the Director. Lets get some answers here! It seems that while costs and profits are on the rise, safety and legal concern is on the serious decline here. Does it really need to come to injury or death before we press this issue? This is of serious concern for me as well as the rest of the families which WE are responsible for. Lets make sure these life experiences are remembered forever for the right reasons before something horrific occurs and they are not forgotten for the wrong reasons. This has been brought up to Irving with no response.(This message has been edited by marinelaw)(This message has been edited by marinelaw)

Why is it that the leaders of National BSA base are breaking the USCG laws. Not only now but according to the USCG Marine Inspector(MIami FL.) since 1996! Certainly blatent disreguard for Federal Marine Law should not be taught to children. Nor should these laws be broken simply for our money. Aside from the risk at which OUR children are placed in!! One would question there INTEGRITY....HONESTY...RESPECT... I think you know where I am going... And why is it that we are not being informed of this as we send our children off to NATIONAL SCOUT CAMP!!! Apparently our money, and not our opinion is their concern. What about our choice in the matter, these are our kids, their health and safety is now the responsibility of the National Councl????? According to the USCG offices (Wash. DC and Lt. CMDR at Miami Fl) it is NOW and has been illegal to carry more than 6 passsengers aboard an uninspected vessels!! let alone day trips but certainly for overnight passages without extra crew other than a Lic. Captain. If your planning a High Adventure At Sea.....Question this, and request USCG "confirmable"documentation authorizng such authority to operate "above the law", when all is said and done and the unfortunate happens.....you will be responsible and they......lets face it will hide behind the pen! Operations have been shut down once this year(but I am sure you were already told this...weren't you?)

Why is it that the leaders of National BSA base are breaking the USCG laws. Not only now but according to the USCG Marine Inspector(MIami FL.) since 1996! Certainly blatent disreguard for Federal Marine Law should not be taught to children. Nor should these laws be broken simply for our money. Aside from the risk at which OUR children are placed in!! One would question there INTEGRITY....HONESTY...RESPECT... I think you know where I am going... And why is it that we are not being informed of this as we send our children off to NATIONAL SCOUT CAMP!!! Apparently our money, and not our opinion is their concern. What about our choice in the matter, these are our kids, their health and safety is now the responsibility of the National Councl????? According to the USCG offices (Wash. DC and Lt. CMDR at Miami Fl) it is NOW and has been illegal to carry more than 6 passsengers aboard an uninspected vessels!! let alone day trips but certainly for overnight passages without extra crew other than a Lic. Captain. If your planning a High Adventure At Sea.....Question this, and request USCG "confirmable"documentation authorizng such authority to operate "above the law", when all is said and done and the unfortunate happens.....you will be responsible and they......lets face it will hide behind the pen! Operations have been shut down once this year(but I am sure you were already told this...weren't you?)