lone77wulf

Back on page 7, I posted a list of stories about things I experienced and heard about AHG during my time working next to them. I've been contacted off-board and had a discussion with a leader in the organization, who has explained much about their programs and operations. Her messages have reminded me we're all in the game together regardless of team.

I'd like to ask the members of this board to ignore the things I said in the post, it was based on misunderstandings. These e-mails back a forth show that their program is self-sufficent, which I implied wasn't true, and that I works towards developing well rounded women. I also realize that some of what I said could be misconstrued, because on forum things I see as minor details seem much bigger. I have asked the forum staff to delete the message, because it doesn't add to the conversation, and in fact detracts from a valid discussion.

As I said in that post, I do whole heartedly agree with and defend AHG's right to exist. Anyone who choses to help kids become better adults is doing right in my book.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but since the BSA's signing of the MOU has me about an inch from resigning my positions, I'll share some stories here.

Back when I worked in a National Supply shop, I worked at a satellite store in a strip mall. The council had the next unit over, with a secretary there for registrations and the like. The Council executive gave AHG's National Office a free lease to that space, since the council secretary only used a fraction of it. So, I got to witness a lot of things first hand.

First, Management from the NDC had to get involved with telling them in no uncertain terms that they could not buy restricted items (mainly merit badges) and were to stop copying program materials to pass off as their own. They were finally told that they could only buy unit numbers in terms of uniform items. From comments here, I see that their practice of copying is still happening, while other groups who attempt a non-BSA Boy Scouting are threatens with legal action.

Secondly, there were many times that the BSA secretary would be talking with a volunteer about something related to their daughters, and the AHG staff would jump into the conversation and start pushing AHG. There was an impression pushed by them they were a BSA partner, which at the time they were very much not (this is all pre-2004).

There was a big push by AHG to get a congressional charter, because they were convinced that it meant they would get funding. I know they sent a video in, but no clue what happened after that, but I don't think that they progressed past that in the process.

When AHG first started, they stated they were "Judeo-Christian". After one of their summer camps, a mother called their office demanding her money back due to her daughter feeling very uncomfortable at the camp due to her Jewish faith. They took out a lot of the "Judeo-Christian" references after that.

One of their National Staff members told a volunteer that too many girls were focused on college and career, and not enough on family, and that was something AHG was addressing.

AHG has every right to exist, as does the BSA and GSUSA. my issue is the BSA's blurring of the lines between the two organizations and the idea that units should do a lot together. The BSA is running a week of AHG training at PTC this summer, and promotes council's offering their camps and staff for AHG weeks at camp, something that hasn't been offered to other organizations before. With how non-transparent the BSA is with money, I wonder how subsidized these programs are.

As a program locally, it may be a good fit for some, but just as with any organization, you've got to look at it as a whole. The BSA seems to be taking a stance of "we dont care what you think" as part of the CSE's idea of making the BSA self-sufficient. That's a turn I don't like, and I think the AHG MOU is part of that concept.

In the Wood Badge Administrative Manual it says:

"Staff costs are not to be passed on to the participants. Staff members must pay their own way. The staff fee should include all costs directly associated with the staff (meals, daily charges for insurance, beads, certificates,staff guide, etc.)"

Not sure about Powderhorn, but I'm guessing its the same.

Congrats!

Got mine earlier in the month at roundtable. As I told the people in attendance, my 3 longer-term projects are still going to continue, the Ticket just kicked them off.

Ted

I used to be a Beaver......

C-18-10

Unfortunately many have given up the value of earning an award for the ability to say "look at all our Eagles".

Back in 95 I went to OA NLS, where a question was asked to Clyde Mayer, the National OA Director about testing people, because many Lodges were under the idea that no one could fail. His response shocked them when he said "of course you can test, just like EARNING Tenderfoot, Arrowmen should EARN Brotherhood"

Wish more people thought like that.

I'm a trainer at work, and I teach courses that lead to certification from professional organizations or the Federal Government. In obtaining my instructor certification, it was stressed over and over that by my signing off that a student had done X,Y and Z that I became personal liable if they later went on to make a mistake and said "I was never taught that". While I realize that a merit badge isn't on that level, I take the same seriousness to signing a blue card. If I sign that a scout did everything on the list, then he did. May take multiple tries with lots of teaching, but that scout can say with pride he did that requirement, not "oh yeah, at camp we talked about how to make a shelter"

Just to hit on a few points here as a former camp program director.

When I went to NCS (1998), it was made very very apparent by our instructor that:

A)Requirements were to be followed to the letter (do means do, show means show)

B)Program area directors were the real MBCs, even if younger staff taught, they had to sign due to the the need for an adult

C)As program directors, we were ultimately responsible for every signed off blue card. If a parent/SM/etc questioned it, we'd be the first asked.

Now, I took that seriously, but I still know there were people who got "gimmes" because the counselor didn't do their job right,but I policed as best I could.

But, in the same vein, in my 6 years at camp, we kept toying with open versus closed program. What happened was the areas like Handicraft and Nature, which had a large number of badges offered was a situation in which a staff of 3-4 had 6 badges to worry about. So, the boys coming in would get a little instruction, and then set about their projects or papers. This meant that on average, the quality of anything they did was low, because there wasn't any of the mentoring that goes on in a true merit badge environment, even as a class.

No matter how hard I fought the open program model, the council wanted to keep it, because it meant that Johnny could come home with 8-10 merit badges, including a bunch of Eagle ones. I told them time and time again that as a camper, I took 1-2 merit badges a year and went to different program areas to sample their programs. Yeah, I got my Eagle at 17, but I had fun at camp, which became a long time summer job.

I see more and more mills coming along in scouting since I was a youth, and have declined invitiations to teach at Merit Badge colleges because when I told the coordinators that no scout could complete the badge in 3 classes they said to "make it work". That became a fun chat with the council advacement chair, yet it wasn't changed.

And to steal (and butcher a quote); What do you call an Eagle Scout with just 21 merit badges? Eagle Scout

"How many units are you and your solo ADC trying to take care of? "

Well, that all depends on how you cut the district up. We have 52 units, with 2 new ones coming on line. But, of those only 9 are "traditional", as in volunteer led. The other 45 are under program managers. So, basically, between the 2 of us, I'm working with 4, he's working with 5. I work with the 5 program managers, but they really don't get Commissioner Service in the traditional sense, because of their status as employees. The ultimate goal is to get them commissioners, but they're behind the other 9 priority-wise.

"Now I have to clean my keyboard and display."

Hey, its the mantra now , but then again, look at my district's breakdown. Program managers aren't professionals, but they're still paid. Our FD is pushing HARD for those units to be on their own within 2 years, but we'll see.

"And while the other 18 'don't count' -- they count for the unit ... and that is what truly matters!"

That's why the concensus is that we the metric will be addressed. While unit visits are nice, helping units is the ultimate goal.

"How many units does each UC in your district have?"

My district is the odd one out in the council. It's me and an ADC, and that's after 13 months of me attempting to recruit everyone I can think of. I've gotten 3 to volunteer, but for the committee. So my loss, but the scout's gain. I'm one of those Eagledad hints at, really not the best fit for the job, but when I went to the DE to offer services as a UC, they had zero commissioner staff.

Council-wise, the other districts are at about a 5:1 ratio. Those districts are all well on the way to Gold standard.

"Then they are not entering the data into UVTS correctly!"

They're entering correctly, and getting credit for all 24, but when the gold standard is 6 visits to 50% of your units, the 18 additional don't "count". That's where the discrepancy lies, and where we hope a change is made. Not because the 6/50% is unreachable, but because those visits may fall by the wayside if a UC has a major issue in one unit. We're getting some UCs to retroactively enter the "other" contacts, so I doubt we'll not reach gold, but it seems that metric needs some adjustment. The tracking is fine, we just feel the goal isnt the best measure.

fred8033,

What you propose, on the training level, is related to what I'm working towards as a Commissioner. As we bring on trainers or commissioners, our goal is to cross-train them. So, while a Unit Commissioner is visiting for a training "check-up", they can observe the unit as well. And if they're there on a unit visit, they can discuss trainings in the future and roundtables (which most councils don't use as the training opportunity they are),

From the thread, it sounds like the quality of the Commissioner service is hugely varied around the country. In our council, there's a fair amount of resentment for the new J2E commissioner requirements, because they focus only on unit visits. So a commissioner who visits his units 6 times a year is doing what J2E wants, but is not focused on the charge of the commissioner service to help units. So the commissioner who steps in for unit lifesaving and helps keep a pack afloat gets credit for only one unit, even though he visited 24 times. This hopefully will be addressed next year when the requirements are released.

If National is truly focused on the new "Volunteer led, professionally advised" idea that came out of the National Meeting, there will have to be a heavy duty return to the original focus of the Commissioner Service. Those who want to be commissioners to drink coffee and hang around aren't going to help with this focus, and will have to be guided to the correct path, or to the door.

Try Crestcraft at http://www.crestcraft.com/. They do a lot of thin metal work that I've seen. A fair amount of it looks close to the old skill awards in method.

I think there's a two-fold reason for the knot program in the BSA as a whole (and because of this there's conflict over what to wear), and it reaches all the way back to the first knots.

The first knots made were: The Honor Medal, Silver Buffalo, Antelope, and Beaver, Eagle Scout, Ses Scout Quartermaster, Scoutmaster's Key, and the Scouter's Training Award. So, from the very beginning, we had a mixutre of "presented" and "earned by requirement" awards.

The knot program has always had these 2 faces. So, as the Cub knot program moved away from the Boy Scout knot program, the knots increased from 2 to the current batch of 6, with requirements for each one being different.

I think the National Committees responsible for these awards realize there are goals that exist for each of these positions, so a leader operating the optimal program will have an experience like moosetracker had. In our district, we check at the Roundtable in November to see which leaders finished the awards for presentation at the District Dinner. Most units have leaders who earned the awards YEARS prior, because they did everything requried to benefit the boys, not realizing there was an award.

I've also seen leaders who get the requirements for the various awards surrounding their positions as the enter them to see what things National has chosen as important. I'm giving each of my new UCs a copy of the requirements for Commissioner's Key, the Arrowhead award, Distinguished Commissioner and the new Excellence in Unit Service Award. Why? Because it shows them what's important in the job in the span of the National program. If they earn them, great. If they don't, still great, as long as they're delivering good service.

So, in light of Plowboy's question, the question that comes to my mind is "Why doesn't National feel that the Committee Chair position has unique enough goals to warrant its own award" It could be a device on the Cub Scouter award, or on its own, but its a valid question, and one I'd wonder about as well.

They're offering it at camp each week (this week is staff week). They're allowing anyone to attend the sessions, and they are apparently allowing people to attend over multiple weeks if they can't attend all in one week. From what we've seen flyer wise, they are offering IOLS testing, not sure if they'll try to offer it as a class or not.

In terms of winter, our District traditionally did Youth Protection then, because it made it simple to remember you needed it by the end of an odd or even year, but that's out with the new requirement. Now we've got a couple trainers with personal laptops they take to units if there are new leaders without access from home. What shocked me on the reasons for needing that was that our units that meet in cchools are not allowed to use school computers or their wireless.

I'm not sure about the calendar, but I know its not correct most times, our day camp isn't on there because we didn't use the doubleknot registration, so they didn't post it. I don't watch the calendar there too closely, but we have a physical calendar that's distrbuted that is more accurate. Unfortunately, it just lists the entire weeks of camp as having "adult training", but no specific days. So yeah, here's our summer of training, but a nebulous or non-existant schedule.

Here's an interesting idea our Council is trying this year. http://www.danbeard.org/training/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:summer-of-training&catid=19:basic-training-information

Not only is it promoting training to the untrained, but its getting people to come in and make sure their ScoutNet records are up to date, which was a major issue with YPT at recharter. When they check the records for the patch, if there are missing trainings, they're being updated on the spot. Any other councils trying this approach to getting records verified? How well has it worked?

I think with the new scoutstuff.org, we're seeing a lot more old stuff they've got a few of in the warehouse. In the 2004-2005 range, the jac-shirts went from the old jacket sizes to the XS-5X we've got now. he old sizes were made 25% off as the new stock made its way to the stores. So the sizes on sale for 19.99 have been marked down from that point, and these are the bare few left. Years ago, this was known as "Discontinue when gone", so I doubt you'll see the other sizes on sale until they drop the jac-shirt completely. I've seen a few older items like that pop up on the new site when I've been looking for something.

Back when the first shirts were moved from Newco manufacturing to overseas, we wondered how the made-to-measure shirts would be handled. It sounds like that's what the CSE, etc are having done, which I'd assume they had done in the past with Newco and Sweet-orr.

Begs the question though, if this is the M2M program through supply, then would people be willing to pay extra and order them that way? (M2M required a 2-piece order of "like" items, so you could get a long and short sleeve shirt, or a pair of shorts and pants, but not one top/pant)

I trim the excess since many are cut out of square now. One thing I've also done in the past is to sew the knots with one continuous thread and zig zag stich between the 2 edges. I only have 3, so no clue if this would work for more, but by stitching them together, they lay flat in a group, rather than gapping between each.

One thing I have noticed is that the centenial uniform pockets seem to be just a tiny bit narrower (like 1/16"), so 3 knots just barely hang over on each side, so I place the center knot first, then the outer ones so the overhang is even.

And I guess you could call me undercover uniform police, my goal is to set the example rather than confront the perpatrators of uniform crimes

When I was Lodge Chief (95-96), I was invited to a meeting with the Scout Executive. In that meeting, he explained how he had delegated his Supreme Chief of the Fire duties to the council program director, but that he was interested in the program running well. We discussed the plans I had as Chief and what he'd like the OA's camping focus to be, since we were in the process of building a new camp. At the end of the meeting, he said "I'd like to invite you to be a member of the councl executive board", which my Adviser later told me was pretty much a formality as the LC and EAA president were always asked to be. I was considered to be the youth representitive to the board, and was alone in that role, since the EAA president declined the position. I had 2 uniforms, one of which was my troop uniform, red loops and "experienced" Vigil sash, which was worn to all OA events. When I went to board meetings, I wore the board patch, silver loops and a pristine sash.

I wasn't considered to be a part of the council camping committee, but if I recall correctly that's because I declined the position due to the meeting conflicting with my class schedule at the time. My Adviser was a non-voting member, because the idea was I would be the member with him there to advise me, rather than another voting memeber, to prevent conflict of interest.

I know when I worked for a National Scout Shop, we did anything and everything we could to help the customer. If we said we couldn't get something, it meant no one anywhere in the country had it, because we had already called each store to try and get one. Territory and Store managers have a network of "go-to" stores, but we would look everywhere we could to find an item. I guess now it's done via e-mail, now that more staff has internal mail.

In terms of ordering from the warehouse, we always tried to steer people away from it. Not to "get the sale" as it were, but because we usually had the item in stock, and shipped it cheaper than they could. Since I left, they've changed the shipping rates to standardize them across all stores, which means they are the same as the warehouse, but its still faster to ship within the state, or one state over.

One big change that I've chatted with my ex-coworkers about is how stores are stocked. When I left, there was a change to "pushed" orders for new items, where the warehouse shipped certain levels of stock to each store. There were A,B,C and D stores if I remember right, and an "A" got about 4 times what a "D" store did. It was based entirely on total sales, not on any other criteria. So, when a new book series on hiking trails came out, we were sent 6 of each book. The only issue? We were in Ohio, and the closest area covered by the books was TN. So, they sat until another store needed them, or they were discontinuted. In the "old way" a manager would get a newsletter saying "here are next month's new items, place orders ASAP". So now when a Scout Shop that sells the Jac-Shirts like crazy gets their new green jackets, they get what they are "supposed" to get, not what the manager knows they can sell. It probably makes the warehouse's job easier, but it means that the items are shipped all over the country, rather to where they'll sell. If that system is still in place, the southern region stores probably have the same number of jackets they have in the northwest region. Guess who will sell out first?

All that said, a letter to a higher up used to work well, I'd assume its the same way now. When our Territory Manager's boss got a letter about an issue, we knew about it for sure, either a memo, a retraining, or more. I've heard a lot of frustration with the web ordering, and I've never personally done it, but I'd say a letter, especially one written directly to a person rather than "head of web ordering, or the like" would at least get a response, if not a good look at what went wrong.

I know when I worked for a National Scout Shop, we did anything and everything we could to help the customer. If we said we couldn't get something, it meant no one anywhere in the country had it, because we had already called each store to try and get one. Territory and Store managers have a network of "go-to" stores, but we would look everywhere we could to find an item. I guess now it's done via e-mail, now that more staff has internal mail.

In terms of ordering from the warehouse, we always tried to steer people away from it. Not to "get the sale" as it were, but because we usually had the item in stock, and shipped it cheaper than they could. Since I left, they've changed the shipping rates to standardize them across all stores, which means they are the same as the warehouse, but its still faster to ship within the state, or one state over.

One big change that I've chatted with my ex-coworkers about is how stores are stocked. When I left, there was a change to "pushed" orders for new items, where the warehouse shipped certain levels of stock to each store. There were A,B,C and D stores if I remember right, and an "A" got about 4 times what a "D" store did. It was based entirely on total sales, not on any other criteria. So, when a new book series on hiking trails came out, we were sent 6 of each book. The only issue? We were in Ohio, and the closest area covered by the books was TN. So, they sat until another store needed them, or they were discontinuted. In the "old way" a manager would get a newsletter saying "here are next month's new items, place orders ASAP". So now when a Scout Shop that sells the Jac-Shirts like crazy gets their new green jackets, they get what they are "supposed" to get, not what the manager knows they can sell. It probably makes the warehouse's job easier, but it means that the items are shipped all over the country, rather to where they'll sell. If that system is still in place, the southern region stores probably have the same number of jackets they have in the northwest region. Guess who will sell out first?

All that said, a letter to a higher up used to work well, I'd assume its the same way now. When our Territory Manager's boss got a letter about an issue, we knew about it for sure, either a memo, a retraining, or more. I've heard a lot of frustration with the web ordering, and I've never personally done it, but I'd say a letter, especially one written directly to a person rather than "head of web ordering, or the like" would at least get a response, if not a good look at what went wrong.

"Basically, my point of view is this: If it works for you our yours.........what's the problem?"

I think this train of thought isn't shared by many because of the fact that the LDS differences are organized and printed. So instead of not knowing or not caring, it's "look at these differences, its because of X,Y,Z"

I've worked with LDS scouts and scouters both at camp and as a Scout Shop employee. Guess what? Some are great, some are good, and some are questionable. The only unique issue to LDS I've seen is leaders who feel they shouldn't be doing Boy Scout things. I guess this is from how the church selects leaders, maybe someone can expound on this better than I can.

Last night, we had a Commissioner's meeting. One of the topics was units that will lapse at the end of the year. One district reported he has 3 units he is going to have to possibly report for not having the proper leadership on the charter applicaiton, which means they'll not be granted one. Another Commissioner reported she's going to lose a unit over an ongoing youth protection issue currently under investigation. Are any of these LDS units? Don't know, but it doesn't matter. There are enough issues like this that need addressing that I don't focus on creating new ones.

"Age banding. Patrols are age specific, probably to coincide with the Church's YM program. ... All non-LDS do not do that. Many would consider it counter to the goals of the patrol method."

A lot of units that aren't LDS do this. There were troops that couldn't understand why we at the store always asked to make sure they needed 15 Troop Guide patches because they had every boy above the age of 14 in the "leadership patrol" and had to give them a position they required for that patrol. Everyone else was in the patrol they entered the troop in, so everyone was in the same grade. It's not the end of the world, but not what the book says to do either. The SM of that troop came in one day and we discussed it with him, and he understood why it puzzled us. He didn't change, but he listend to our advice. I'm betting his troop still has patrols broken down by age.

Looks like there's a new version of the Jac-Shirt in green:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=NEW&C3=&C4=&LV=2&item=611024-9&prodid=611024-9^8^01RTL&

Hopefully this is an additon to the line, and not a step in elimnating the red ones. The red one has 2 styles on backorder, which gives me hope. From the picture on the site, it doesn't seem to be a Woolrich, its thinner and has buttons similar to the centenial uniform pants.

shortridge said: Why not have the Scout Shop staff put it all together for a small convenience fee and make it easy?

I'm scratching my head on this one. When I worked for a Supply Group Scout Shop, it was a given we would help with this. We distributed sheets to the units to have them fill in the scout's unit/patrol and check of the optional items for troops like hats and neckerchief choices. We would bring in extra staff in the fall so we could walk around with the customer and get them everything they needed, while helping with size choices (buy big, etc). We also kept a few "often missed" items like slides, books and the like so we could add it in if they realized they forgot it at the register.

We also offered a "pull" service for $2 (went up to 3 a few years in) that was based on the NDC's handling fee. We'd pull and item to hold it for 24 hours for free if it was the last one, or we'd also take credit card info and do it as a phone order and keep it forever.

I guess there's a huge difference in what stores will do, especially between National stores and distributors, but to us, it was just part of the job. Made the customers happy, and as we told many of them "We'd love to see you stop back, but not because we forgot something you needed"

Thanks for the welcome!

-jblake47, the 99+% is what makes any forum worthwhile. I can deal with the bit that doesn't... just have to shake my head and move on when I see it.

-prof, Uh-oh, the competition I worked at Woodland Trails for Miami Valley Council. Up until the re-opening of DBC's camp, the troops seemed evenly split between Ransburg and Woodland Trails. We always seemed to get inspection the week after Ransburg too, so we heard about the program year from them. We also got a lot of customers when I worked at the store from Hoosier Trails and Crossroads of America councils. For they guys close to the border, it was sometimes a quicker trip.

I was working for at a scout shop when the shirts first went from being made in the US to overseas (Vietnam and China if I remember right). The company making them at the time went out of business and the BSA began shopping the contract out. Apparently in approaching every uniform manufacturer they could find, none would take on the contract. That's when the switch occured. Some of the reasons given were that they were unable to provide in the quantities the BSA wanted, and others said they did not want to work with the material that was used on the shirts.

Same thing occured with the Callimus knives. Company went out of business, the BSA shopped around, this time they found Case willing to make them, but no one would pay the price that Case/BSA charged.

Unfortunately the BSA can only get items from companies that are out there already, and the tide is changing to overseas production. Wish it wasn't this way, and it makes an interesting illustration for when I teach American Labor Merit Badge.