LIBob

HELLO AGAIN ALL AND THANKS FOR THE MANY REPSONSES.

I have been away from the forum a month or so (my son and I and some select friends, including the Taoist family have made this the "50-mile summer.")

Thanks you for all your responses.

While I remain interested in this question in a general sense, the specifics no longer apply. The family in question has decided that their kids will apply themselves to competitive swimming and that as a result they will not join scouting.

They remain a very "outdoorsy" family, in fact next weekend I will participate in a camping trip they organized.

Their family and mine are hiking across Long Island TWICE this summer, and they are allowing me to set the mileage/agenda according to PJ's Hiking MB needs, but they are not joining scouts.

The swim team their family has chosen is INTENSELY competitive (practice begins at 6am every weekday, HS swimmers shave their legs and do twice-dailys)and they simply will not have time to become full and true members of scouting.

Hey VigilEagle,

It's good to meet you.

a quick aside:

B-P spent a lot of time in Africa. He acquired a distaste for many of the folks he met there, (both his assigned enemies and his assigned allies,) and he acquired a profound admiration and respect for the Zulus.

As he scouted for the British Army in Africa he often had Hindus, Muslims, and people of various African religions under his command. Some he loved some he hated.

Legend has it that he developed two versions of the Scout Oath. According to one website (take it for what it's worth,):

According to tradition, Baden-Powell wrote an alternative oath called the Outlander Promise for Scouts who could not, for reasons of conscience, recognize a duty to a King (the norm in the USA), for individuals or members of religions (such as Buddhism, Taoism, and others) that do not worship a deity, and for members of orthodox religions that do not use the name of God in secular settings. . . .

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/law.htm

I don't know if the legend is true. What I do know is

1) it makes sense to me, and . . . . meh I'll spare you the long-winded personal thoughts. welcome and well met.

Scoutfish:

Taosits allow a wide kaliedescope of views on theism. One Taosit will tell you "we believe in one God." The next beleives in a trinity, the third belives in a pantheon, the foruth believes that strictly speaking ther is no god in the wesern sense.

All who recognize "the Way" are welcome.

Merlyn:

So let me get this straight.

You are not a scout now, you are not a scouter now.

You have never been a boy scout.

You have not been a scout or scouter in any status for half a century.

But

- you have "googled up some stuff" tha tays "scouting in discriminatory."

- you have no idea if those "facts" are true or only as true as "donkeys cannot sleep in bath tubs" in Louisiana.

- Since some of the BSA leadership is rom Texas, and some of teh BSA leadership are Mormons (and it is . . . well remotely possible that 80% of BSA leadership are tofu eating survivlaist hippies . . .

then

- you have decided based on your experiences a half century ago that you want to make it your hobby to convince scouters on this forum that scouting is a 100% discriminatory, 100% Texas/LDS organization.

Hmmm ASSUMING the above is all true (and that is an assumption)I'm going to make two suggestions.

Suggestion 1.

You make GREAT and powerful philosophical arguments. Keep them for the philosophical threads. Keep those ideas off "facts on the ground" threads because your "facts on the ground" knowledge is all a half century old (and given that you and your mother are atheists . . . well "scouting hates atheists" does not mesh well with your experience either.)

Suggestion 2.

Challenging scouters on the internet, and trying to convince them, that scouting is dominated by extremist right wingers, does not sound like a healthy hobby to me. Perhaps you should take up an "outing" hobby like fishing or hiking, or camping, or backpacking.

I dunno. You seem like a really smart guy, (maybe even smarter than me), but when 100% of active scouters on this thread say "Taoists are welcome," and you use lot of savvy to imply but not say "Taoists are not welcome" . . . maybe its time for you go camping.

JMHO

Scoutfish wrote:

Everybody who has answered LIBob - and coincidentally happen to be active scouters or parents of active scouts or religious - have stated that Taoists are welcome and have taken the time to explain that to LIBob with open welcoming arms.

Yes.

That has been the common denominator.

Every active scouter who has taken the time to reply has said emphatically Taoists are welcome.

I thank you all again for your replies.

The BSA rules, strictly (or perhaps erroneously) interpreted may tend to indicate otherwise. heck, maybe some meaningless guy in Irving TX really is anti-taoist.

But the facts on the ground, repeated, re-repeated, and re-re-repeated tell me "Taoists are welcome."

The bona fide active scouters on this forum are pretty unanimous "Taoists are welcome."

While I welcome merlyn's input the facts on the ground seem to be speaking loudly and clearly. tomorrow, during our 5-mile hike I will suggest that my son PJ invite Allen Yang (Young) to join his roop.

Again, I sincerely thank you all for your responses.

Merlyn wrote:

Seriously, Scoutfish. If the BSA says you have to believe in a god, and a member of a religion does NOT believe in a god, that pretty much means the BSA membership requirements exclude them. Lots of people like to try and dance around this, which I find pointless.

Well, that't the thing about Taoists. If you back one into a corner (difficult thing to do), and made him/her argumentative (a darn near impossible thing to do since Taoists are by nature non-argumentative), you could, with a set of slick Socratic arguments

back him/her into accepting

- most Taoists will tell you there are many gods (and therefore Taoism is polytheistic), OR

- most Taoists will tell you one god or one series of embodiments of the smae god, is superior to all the lesser gods (and therfore Taoism is monotheistic or trinitistic),

- most Taoists wil tell you that none of teh gods can violate or change the eternal "Way," and therefore Taoists do not believe in any god in the western sense.

So basically, a person who is sufficiently argumentative (or sufficeintly Texan, or sufficiently LDS), could subscrie to some provincial view of Taoism.

It si enteirely possible that one or more powerful folks in irving wish to exclude Taoists . . . . but that does not make the right and it does not mean they actualy have any control over the decisions of individual SM's.

If I can point to a leading atheist who believes in child sex or euthanizeing minority children does that mean 20% of all atheists share his belief? Of course not.

So, back in reality, if a Texas Mormon professional scouter has declared "Buddhists are okay but Taoists are not" does that mean anything at all to a ground level Taoist boy trying to enter a scout troop? so far the answers on this thread indicate "no." Is the proper answer.

1.

In Louisiana there is a law that donkeys cannot sleep in bathtubs. Does that mean Louisiana is anti-donkey?? anti-bathdtub??

Heck no. Sometimes "facts on the ground" mean a lot more than sophomore philosophhy talk.

2.

In BSA there is a rule that a scout must profess a belief in (one universal and monotheistic all-powerful) God. Of course the actual BSA rules eliminate everything in paranthases, but the paranthesis certainly are implied. Does that mean BSA is anti-Taoist?

I'm not a hundred percent certain, but so far "facts on the ground" indicate Taoists are welcome.

Hey merlyn how's it going?

Your input is also welcome here but as I am relatively new to scouter.com it might help me if you could pin your advice to your own experiences in scouting.

My own opinion is that since BSA includes Zoroastriansim and Meher Barbar(ism) among its religious awards, but excludes Taoism among its religious awards, then perhaps some powerful guy in Texas has made certain, unsophisticated provincialish judgements about Taoism and God.

The many comments from active socuters on this forum have already convinced me that either

a. that is not the case and I have misinterpreted.

or

b. that is the case, but so long as the troop leader does not share that provincial and unworldly view then it will not be an issue.

I DO appreciate your input, but insofar as

- this is an "honest question" thread and

- your views seem to be in the minority,

the burden of proof on you is kind of a heavy one.

Still, please feel free to continue.

My thoughts on BSA religious awards (and how they relate to Taoism.)

Travel to Asia, (I have), and talk to a dozen or so Buddhists (I have done that as well).

- You will soon find that some Buddhists believe that Siddhartha, who became Buddha is one God among many. (some Buddhists are polytheists)

- You will find others who believe Siddhartha, who became Buddha is the only God and the other so-called gods are, in the western sense, more like saints and angels. (some are monotheists)

- Others believe that Siddhartha-cum-Buddha is the only supreme god but he had three (or eight) major incarnations. (worship a trinity.)

- You will find others who say Siddhartha was simply a great philosopher and truth-seer but not a god and no god in the Abrahamic sense exists. (Buddhists can also be Atheists.)

IOW some Buddhists are atheists, some are monotheists, some are polytheists. (YET) BSA has a series of religious awards a Buddhist scout can earn.

Taoism is a lot like that. I do not wish to go into too much detail, but the above are some of the features Taoism shares with Buddhism. According to wiki, Taoism has 400 million world-wide practitioners.) yet BSA has not religious award series for Taoists.

Perhaps some influential person in Irving TX believes "Buddhists are theists and Taoists are Atheists." I dunno, such a 9wrong) belief would not be the weirdest belief to ever come out of Texas.

By contrast:

(AndI have nothing against Zoroastrianism, but,) if Wiki has it right, there are (only) some 70,000 Zoroastrians in the world, (not enough to fill every seat in a Big-10 football stadium). A small fraction of them live in the United States.

There are fewer than 7.000 worldwide adherents to the General Church of the New Jerusalem, in the entire world. Yet BSA has a series of religious wards set up for them as well.

Meher Babar(ism) strikes me as a religion with relatively few adherents, yet BSA has a series of religious awards for them as well. (No offense intended to Meher Barbar practitioners).

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So if 400 million people (worldwide) practice Taoism, and relatively few practitioners of Zoroastrianism, Meher Barbar(ism) etc. I have to wonder if the lack of a Taoist religious award series was merely an oversight.

Naturally I think perhaps BSA does not welcome Taoists.

Anyway, the insight and opinions of "real live" scouters means a LOT to me on this issue and I again thank you for your replies

Scoutnut wrote:

Really? Where did you read that? I would bet big bucks it was NOT in any BSA publication.

Are you (or the author of the pronouncement you read "somewhere") well versed on the policies of all the Scouting organizations that make up "world scouting"?

I am not sure where I originally read it. I am sure it was one like this (politically charged anti-scouting site)

http://www.lava.net/~hcssc/boyscouts.html

which claims The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) openly discriminates against atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists. The BSA also practices discrimination against students, parents, and teachers who follow the tenets of Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shintoism, Unitarian Universalism, and other religions that do not acknowledge the idea of "God." The vast majority of Hawaii residents do not subscribe to any belief in the idea of a "supreme deity." All Boy Scouts are required to "to do my duty to God."

Parents of Boy Scouts are required to sign a "Declaration of Religious Principles" which states "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.

Normally I am dismissive of such politically driven drivel. However I noticed something about Scoutings religious awards that made me think perhaps there was and is a grain of truth to what that site claimed, and that is why I felt it prudent to post this thread.

So far every response has been either

Yes Taoist boys are welcome.

Or Taoist boys are welcome but they may encounter experiences which might . . . .

And so that is what I believe.

(My thoughts on BSAs religious awards to follow shortly.)

I thank you all sincerely for your replies.

The reason I started the thread is because I read somewhere that BSA is less inclusive than world scouting, and specifically disallows any boy who does not profess belief in a single monotheistic God.

Awwww money.

Well hiking trips are cheap, so are fishing trips

In my first troop each patrol had

- a patrol axe

- a patrol saw

- patrol stove

- patrol lantern

- folding table

- etc.

We even had some very old (and very heavy) canvas tents.

To go camping each kid needed very little money.

- shares in a tent

- shares in a ground cloth

- sleeping bag

- sleeping pad (I never used one)

- pocket knife

- canteen

- flashlight

- first aid kit

- battery lantern.

- mess kit.

I can and did cram all my personal gear for a weekend campout into or onto a standard issue two-strap school book bag.

If a kid doesn't think he needs a $75 sleeping bag and a $150 internal-frame backpack he get all the gear he needs of weekend camping for under $100 at Wal-mart.

More later

Serious question

I am very active in the local Asian American community (my wife is from Taiwan.) and so I know dozens (hundreds??) of Asian American families of various religions and beleif systems.

One of the families that my family considers among our closest friends inquired about having their son joins boy scouts.

The thing is, there are many types of Taoism.

Some schools can be described only as monotheistic, some worship a trinity, others a pantheon and others believe that since no god is above "The Way," then no entity in the Western sense of God can possibly exist.

The "church" to which my friends belong, recognizes that there are so few Taoists in America they cannot "afford to" discriminate. In order to provide a place for many types of Taoists to come together they avoid mentioning matters of theism (which tend to divide Taoists) and instead focus on the principals and beliefs (philosophy) their entire community shares.

Anyway

My family is planning a 5-mile hike with theirs tomorrow. Three weeks from now, my family will join their "church" on a weekend camping trip. I'm sure the topic of scouting will come up

I'd like to get some honest input. If I encourage them to put their son in scouts will there be some time in the future when they feel "BSA doesn't want us?"

Oh I should add that I don't carry all that stuff to an troop meeting.

That's hiking gear.

In fact recently (summer) my son and I have taken so many hikes I have put most of that gear into a fanny packs (looks as nerdy as it sounds)so that i have most of my hiking gear in one place.

Recently when it's time to hike I

- grab the nerd pack

- grab some water

- get a map

- leave a hike plan on the coffee table for my wife to see.

- go hike with my son.

What's really cool is when we leave our hiking boots at home an wear our "mud shoes." . . . .

Hmmm

Shoulder pocket is for compass, (and map if map is small enough.)

Left breast pocket is for minimalist survival gear (whistle, fire starter, fish hooks etc.)

Right breast pocket is

- for bigger maps and/or

- for adult leaders to carry cell phones

- something to sew temporry patches onto so that uniform proper does not get too worn out.

Okay so maybe that one is not all so necessary.

Pants:

Front right pocket has, keys, pocket knife, empty bagies for plant and lef samples

Front left pocket has . . . err umm . . room for whatever is necessary on this particular trip.

Back left pocket ahs wallet.

Back right pocket has contact info. health info etc. ( I guess the boys dont' need this pocket but I sure like it.)

Left clam digger (thigh) pocket contains baggies with leaf/plant samples in them, one hand lense (for examining smaples and/or a lighted hand lens.

Right clam digger contains bottle of water and two trail mix bars.

Now all I need to pack is

- first aid kit

- survival kit (if in real wilderness)

- poncho

- pencil and paper

- camera (optional)

- extra batteries

- lunch and sometimes extra water.

There ya have it.

Only 7 more pockets and I won't need to carry a knapsack. LOL

Sheldonsmom wrote:

"Single sex can allow for more focused learning. As someone else pointed out, boys act squirelly around girls and vice versa.

Bing bing bing bing

An since going co-ed can sometimes cause major (and not always positive) changes perhaps it wodl be a bd idea to force every troop, even those that are working to go co-ed.

Perhaps it would be a bad idea to prohibit future scouts from joing a fully-functional boys troop.

Heck even if making scouts co-ed change NOTHING about scouting proper, it woud certainy be a really major and irreversible marketing makover.

There used to be ~2 million boy scouts, and a commensurte number of families camping in and visiting naitonal parks. Now BSA enrollment has dropped 10% (while outdoor-oriented families have dropped 20-30%.)

I just don't understand the folks who look at that and start and start clamoring for a radical re-do of scouting philosophy.

Gee my son's troop's membership is UP 20% in recent years.

If a 10% drop calls for a radical makeover what does a 20% increase mean? Instead of outlawing troops like my son's perhaps we should outlaw every other kind of troop.

I've been away from this thread a few days. Forgive me if I have missed some important info.

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If you've ever been a 14 year old boy or been around them (and I assume most of us have) it is a pretty safe bet that you have seen introducing girls into the equation makes for a vastly different experience than the experience a 14 year old boy gets from a "guys only" or "guys only but with a few mom's as leaders" experience.

It does not matter if it is camping or band camp or computer camp at the local college.

FOR THAT REASON

I am 100% convinced that making troops co-ed is putting the entire scouting movement at risk.

- Doing so coincided with the near death of scouting in Canada.

- Doing so coincided with a vast seascape change in the nature of scouting UK.

Can girls do what BSA boys do? Of course?

But making troops co-ed presents a HUGE risking to BSA ans we should not take that kind of risk over a 10% drop in membership. Given that visits to Nat'l parks have dropped MUCH more than 10% I firmly believe that we are doing quite well. BSA is a SUCCESS STORY. In the gameboy generation outdoor interest has dropped 20-30% yet BSA membership has dropped only 10%.

- Ya wanna open up BSA camps for a "girls only" week? I will support it.

- Ya wanna have all-girl troops? Okay buy me a donut and I won't object.

- but if you want put the entire scouting movement at risk on some sort of radical, illogical and coincidentally-failed-every-time-it's-been-tried experiment, all I can say is I will pull my son and so will millions of parents like me (as they did in Canada and the UK.) So much for you membership numbers.

- If you want to campfire kids then join campfire kids. Leave my son's troop alone

Lisabob said some great things above.

In addition boomerscout asked

>>"can you obtain copies of calendars from other troops to show as examples?

Here is my son's troop calendar (complete) from 2009

http://troop229bsa.com/jan_dec_2009%20rev29.pdf

here is his troops calendar for 2010 (complete thru august:

http://troop229bsa.com/jan_dec_2010%20rev17.pdf

Yes BSA is scout led, but the adults have to provide the framework. It can be a tough challenge at times, but I suggest you can still put one or more of the following "bugs in their ears."

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and work toward getting very kid ready for Philmont.

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and work toward getting every kid ready for a week-long backpacking tek

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and work toward getting every kid ready to earn his 50-miler

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and it should include two swim tests one canoe training and one canoe event each year

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and work toward getting each kid within spitting distance of the Hornsday award

- we should have a major outdoor activity every month and etc.

I am very pleased with the responses.

For my own part, I keeping my piece and filing this away under "ya gotta pick your battles," especialy since the relaxed dress code was adopted at the behest of the PLC.

Still I'd like to see the scout shirts worn to troop meetings and more of an effort made to have the uniform worn more often.

(At tonight's troop meeting several scouts showed up in swimming trunks and flip-flops, but because they wore the troop t-shirt they were "in uniform.")

Hmm interesting.

For us "class B's" consisted of "scout tops," but not "scout bottoms."

For you, apparently it was the other way around.

Either way, my son's troop wears "Class C's" to troop meetings. though it was a PLC decision I object to it.

Since that is my only objection, I guess I don't have a real objection. Still I think every scout should show his rank (experience) at every meeting. Scouting is not about buildig some sort of Gandhi-esque egalitarian society.

It IS about saying "we are a camping/outdoorsmen community and certain skills/experience are important in our community."

To me the so-called "Class C's" are probably intended for comfort, to put scouts at ease and attract a maximum number of scouts, but the effect is to say,

- rank and skills are not important

- having pockets filled with "Be Prepared" equipment is not important

- earning MBs is not important.

Look Basement, and Pack, and the others advocating co-ed BSA,

I am reasonably certain YOUR daughter would be a asset to BSA and a asset to my son's troop or any other troop.

But going co-ed is not (only) about allowing in daughters like yours.

- A. It is about enrolling girls who have no interest in camping who enroll only because their parents want them to develop such an interest.

- B. It is about enrolling girls who want to learn camping and "how to catch, gut and eat a snapping turtle" and other outdoor skills BUT accepting along the way, parent-leaders who do not share their daughters views.

There are so many things that can go wrong along the way, (UK scouting and Canada scouting both show such failures) that I cannot support putting the future of BSA at risk over what is apparently a long-shot experiment.

If you can find some way to methodically and permanently exclude girls like A. and leaders like B. above then I'll listen to your case. Until then, I'm not even truly listening.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Well basement, sometimes I type before I think and sometimes I think before I type. but now that I am thinking before I type:

Bottom line(s) with me are:

- I am 100% opposed to co-ed troops. It failed in the UK, it failed grievously in Canada. Do NOT put the future of all scouting at risk to give one generation of girls a better chance to camp. Look you don't have to solve all of society's problems in one generation and risking the entirety of scouting to solve the "GSA is insufficently cmaping oriented" problem in a single generation is just plain foolish if you ask me.

Related to the bottom line:

- the only objection I have to co-ed cub packs is that they might one day lead to co-ed troops.

- I have ZERO objection to and would even support encouraging councils to hold a "GSA Week" at their scout camps.

- I have so little objection to all-girl troops in BSA that if you buy me a donut I'll stop objecting.

- Co-Ed troops? Not this decade. I will pull my son and join up with like minded kids to form B-P scouts, or just plain pull him and form a boys camping club with local parents. NO oh, no way, no how.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

mbrownkc7,

The scouts also recruit at my son's elementary school on "family night."

But they have no deserts, no tents, no canoes, no ice cram, no pinewood derby kits, nothing but a table a sign ans some sign-up forms.

Judging from the looks of it (all teh kids and parents ignore them)they don't get many kids.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Alright well how about Les Stroud (survivorman)

I mean. I know he is Canadian, but I think he'd make a great head of BSA.

Or maybe Scott O'Grady (devoutly Christian F-16 pilot shot down over Serbia who survived six days by eating ants and wild plants.)

Many decades ago when i was a scout

My first troop insisted that every scout must wear his full uniform ("class A's) to every troop meeting.

My second and third troops allowed something we called "Class B's." We had to wear the full scout shirt but could wear clean practical jeans or clean practical hemmed shorts. (My first troop btw had the same "Class B" rule for marching into and out of camping events.)

At my son's troop meetings these days. Kids wear something called "Class C's," which consists of Troop issued t-shirts (many of them ridiculously under or over sized) and whatever pair of pants the kids are most comfortable with.

I've got to say that

- the kids SHOULD lead, but this leadership question (made by the PLC) makes me uncomfortable

- since this is the only thing i take issue with in my son's troop it's still a darn good troop.

anyway, what do your troops wear at troop meetings?

I am not even remotely familiar with NYLT.

But (recollecting back 25 years or so)my old troop sent three of our boy leaders to something called "Brownsea Double 2" and it was the best thing that had happened to the troop since its formation.

Now,

maybe those three particular boys were the exception,

maybe "Brownsea Double 2" had little or no effect on most participants,

but from my limited perspective I cannot imagine why scouting would want to change something that worked so phenomenally well.

So anyway it is a hindu mudra (hand gesture.)

While many mudra are symbolic I have not been able to find anything this mudra is supposed to symbolize.

Rather (some) practiitoners of yoga meditation believe that making a gesture similar to the scout sign whie meditating will purify your blood and/or help "maintain the fluid balance in the body."