kasane

"While your involvement is appreciated and important, none of the credentials you list include training in the advancement program, except for being on the training team"

DID YOU READ THE REST OF MY POST?

THREE years as troop advancement chairperson - I didn't sit on my hands through those three years. I had an active troop committee, I attended advancement training within my District, in my Council and at a university of scouting. I trained people in troop advancement, I chaired over 20 boards of review including training new members of the board. I reported to Council, I attended my committee meetings, made my reports and produced copious amounts of paper for my troop. No training in the advancement program - pshah. I had tons of training.

We went by the book(s). We went by all the manuals, training guides, training sessions. We also had to use other skills and methods to motivate people, to inform them and to guide them in their scouting advancement

What I suggested to the first poster was a method of getting parents and new scouts involved in the merit badge program within their own troop. I didn't tell them to use it all the time - it was a method to get kids and parents involved in discussing and learning about the process.

"While you present you plan very well you need to be aware that much of what you have written is in direct opposition to the methods, procedures, and policies of the BSA program. You might take time to review the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, as well as the Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook. "

Actually I guess as a unit commissioner of 5 years standing, a Troop Advancement chair of over three years, and a member of the District Training committee and District Committee, Friends of Scouting Family Chair, wife of scoutmaster, etc, I might be behind on my reading and lack a little understanding my understanding of the process, but for lack of space and time I did not go into the PLC process and the fact that the boys should be leading the troop.

I believe the questioner indicated that their troop is approximately 1 year old. I counselled a lot of troops of many years standing who still hadn't got the "boy led process".

What I was proposing (and I'm sorry if this wasn't clear), was to kick off the beginning of the merit badge process and grow the program within this person's troop. Yes, the boy's can pick the merit badge (sorry for not indicating as such).

I have found that in a new troop (or new boys and parents) an understanding of the merit badge process is not there. I was hoping to get across the usefullness of walking the boys through the process once (including parents) so that they would know what and how to do this. This would help them grow their own program. The boys (once a PLC was established and working) could then begin determining the process.

"Just as a few areas you will want to review;

"Adults determining what merit badges a scout or scouts earn", -I never said that. A merit badge was picked that could be dealt with in a day (if you have this problem with a troop doing this - what about the Councils in their merit badge days or at camps) - I made a suggestion of the type or kind of badge that could be addressed. The adults (SM, CC, AC, etc) coordinating this would consult with the boys. this is not an ongoing process - it was a kickoff to develop the program. I suggested it as a way to start, but if you read the rest, you would see that I talked about the boys growiing and becoming more independent in this process.

"Adults determining trop program" - where did I say that. I suggested a merit badge meeting outside of a troop meeting. If the troop is just a year old, I can guarantee that the PLC is not going yet either. Maybe the merit badge meeting should be a PLC or junior leader training course.

"Scouts going to the Advancement chair when beginning merit badges" - The Scoutmaster issues the Blue Card, but scouts can talk to anyone about beginning a merit badge - maybe they are getting additional information on what is in the badge requirements, who did it before in the troop, tossing the idea around, where they stand in required merit badges, etc., The Advancement Chair can send them right back to the Scoutmaster without saying a word as well. The Advancement Chair can also consult with the Scoutmaster in the matter as well because they keep all the records for the troop and are able to say what is needed or missing in the boy's merit badges.

"counselors being mandated as to who they must counsel" How is this process any different than at Jamboree, merit badge midways, or summer camps when the District or Council signs up 100's of scouts to do merit badges at one fell swoop. Based on this, the Districts and Councils had better read their own manuals and policies.

"The use of merit badges in a Troop Meeting Program" Merit badges should be worked on outside of a Troop meeting - there is too much going on at a troop meeting to concentrate on this matter. That is why I suggested a special meeting or a special day to work on these.

Yes, you do need to have your boys get involved with the merit badge process. It is a hard thing for a boy to call up a stranger (to him) and ask that person to be his counsellor on a merit badge.

I would also like to point out that no one has their "own" merit badge counsellors. To be a merit badge counsellor, you have to register with the council. You get put on a list with all the other counsellors and your merit badge areas are indicated. This list should/must be available to ALL advancement chairs (at the very least). Each Troop should have one.

I realize that some merit badge counsellors will "only" work with specific troops, but I have a problem with that. If you sign up to be merit badge counsellor you should be available to any boy from any troop in your council/district. Geography plays a role in who is chosen to be a counsellor by the scouts, but the counsellors should not refuse a boy who requests their services even if he isn't from their troop.

When a boy indicates that he wants to pursue a particular merit badge, the Scoutmaster or Advancement Chair can then peruse the list, offer some guideance and provide the boy with the phone numbers of the person to contact. A blue card can then be issued.

Since the whole process can be pretty intimidating for everyone involved (especially the first time). I would suggest that a day (not a troop meeting) be set aside for your troop to do a merit badge together. You could even get the parents involved at the start.

Begin by picking a merit badge (something the entire troop would be interested in - maybe a required badge) that may or may not be completed in that day. Arrange for a day (sat am) and a counsellor to come and start the badge. My suggestion here is either the citizenship, physical fitness or personal management badges. The boys can't finish it that day as they have homework for the next few weeks or months, but it gives them a goal to work on. The counsellor can then set a future date with the boys as to when he could see them again if they have completed their work. He should also indicate that he is available at any time to discuss any questions on the topic, and any problems. Also If someone is done, they don't have to wait for the next gathering, but to call him and be reviewed on their schedule not the troop's.

While the merit badge counsellor is talking to the boys about the merit badge, the scoutmaster and advancement chair, give the parents a brief introduction to the process, that a list exists of merit badge counsellors and how the blue cards work. Also they can review the Youth protection guidelines required for this process.

The boys meanwhile are getting an introduction to their first merit badge. The merit badge counsellor can also talk to the boys about how they can contact other counsellors for areas they are interested in. The counsellor you have that day may also do other badges - he/she can then encourage the boys (now that he is not so intimidating) to contact him for other badges.

Having group gatherings for a merit badge can be fun (especially for the one-off topics), it is convenient and takes a lot of stress off everyone. However, as the boys mature and they have a specific schedule they are trying to meet (Eagle, Life) etc, they will exert more independence in this area. Expecting an 11 or 12 year old to do this is a bit of a stretch. They will grow with the process, but they should also get the pleasure of achieving some badges early on in their scouting too. If group badges are the way that works, then so be it.

Welcome to a very interesting and challenging position. I was Troop Advancement Chair for three years and had to start from scratch as well.

Hints:

1) Electronic Data keeping - whatever software program you use, make sure it is Scoutnet compatible. It simplifies your record keeping and ensures that the data you give to the scout office is the same that gets into their database.

2) Re #1. Irregardless whether you give the scout office paper or electronic copies of the scouts records, once or twice a year do an audit of your files versus the scout offices. Get a printout from them and compare to your records. Additionally, each scout should receive a copy of their advancement progress at least every couple of months (if you do it electronically, it can be done once a month). This encourages them to progress, their parents can see what's going on and helps you get feedback if there are any errors.

We also collected their handbooks a couple times year and reviewed the signature sections, to ensure that our records matched with the boys handbooks and vice versa.

We also kept a binder with copies of the boys' blue cards and any other material related to merit badge achievement.

We also (continously) harped to the parents and boys that their blue cards and merit badge cards had to go into a binder at home (like a card collection) as this will be needed for their Eagle board. We had parents check that the copies of blue cards they had, matched what we had (and sometimes they didn't as some cards went through the laundry with the shirts).

The scoutmasters should also get a summary copy every month, so they can measure the progress of the boys and assist in their program planning.

3) Advancement board - it may be a bit passez (sp!) but this is also a great help. It is a great visual as it shows progress in the troop and a great conversation starter with parents and boys. Most kids and parents aren't going to look at a sheet of paper (even thought you give them to them all the time). But a glance at the advancement board is one way of bringing up attendence, participation and advancement in a non-confrontational manner. I made sure it was at all troop meetings - and there was always a cluster around it. We even had the boys, once they were signed off on an item, to go and place the sticky dot in the relevent spot on the chart.

4) Board of review meetings - It will depend on your troop, how much time you have, and the schedules of everyone else, but we set up boards of review for 4 times a year. If needed, we ran additional BoR. By scheduling these ahead of time, I was able to obtain members for the board without running around like crazy if a board was needed the next day.

I had a rotating board - I generally had one other member from the Troop committee and a variety of parents sit on the board. I always tried to have one new person each time, so they were familiar with the process. I had others who had sat numerous times, so I had some variety in experience and not the same persons every time.

We followed the (minimal) guidelines from the Advancement Committee handbook. Our questions varied with the level the boy was at. We tried to have the boys answer questions on how they would use the skills they learned in scouts in life (not just in scouting) - eg. We would ask - you learned the scout oath and law (please recite it). Please give us an example of how you used the law this week at school or at home.

5) A handy dandy Advancement tool chest - get a good fishing tackle box with lots of slots. With all the merit badge cards, pins, blue cards, badges, neckerchiefs, woggles, epaulets, handbooks,etc I ended up having to tote around, this was the best way to organize it. When I headed off to a troop meeting, I had everything available in one spot - so if they need something I had it with me.

I would end up with spare stuff in there, which always came in handy at a meeting or Court of honor. It became a mini-scout shop sometimes - but considering our nearest shop was 30 miles away - it was very handy.

The basic skill/job requirement of an advancement chair is to be a fanatical record keeper. Once you get your files started and in good form, the job becomes much easier (you have to train your scoutmasters to ensure they keep up their end of the paperwork too).

Have fun.

Welcome to the 21st Century Wheeler. The world economy is here.

You are currently wearing at least one clothing item manufactured in the Third World by people beyond the reach of American labour unions. Your food today came from cows raised in Argentina, your orange juice came from Brazil, and your lettuce and tomatoes hand-picked in Florida by itinerant labour from Mexico. That burger you ate at McDonalds was served by an 18 year old (or a 60 year old) making just the minium wage. In some cases they are raising or supporting a family on that. McDonald's offers benefits, but there are a lot of jobs out there that don't. So you still have to buy health care out of that wage, plus feed a family, put a roof over their heads. In the pursuit of greater profits, companies in the united states have exported jobs overseas. That is where an American minimum wage is probably 5x what they are paying a girl in the Phillipines to sew your blue jeans. So you can still pay $30 for them like you did 25 years ago.

Marx recognized the value of labour to an economy. He proposed/projected a world (nearly 150 years ago)in which this labour was essential to the growth of the middle and upper classes, but the standard of living actually declined for the labour classes (increased automation, exporting labour-intensive work to areas of cheaper labour). Marx was first and foremost an economist - remember. Today he would probably get a Nobel prize for his theory (and yes, he would probably have to give it back based on the soviet system of impelementation). Most Nobel prize laureates in Economics have used his theories to model current economies and governments today.

If you look around - you can see this happening in the United States (the poor and the working poor are getting poorer - their jobs are disappearing overseas).

The United Nations has in the past 50 or so years tried (God how they have tried) to protect people around the world, no matter their ideology) from war, famine, economic and political oppression, and disease. Noble concepts - hard to put into action. But without UNICEF, the FAO, WHO and peacekeepers (from every country in the world with a few exceptions) who put their lives on the line, boys and girls in strife-torn areas would not have a chance to grow up safe and healthy, The world (and yes little boy scouts in the USA) would be all the worse without the United Nations.

(This message has been edited by kasane)

When my step-son was in the 4th grade, his teacher decided to try a reward system for good behaviour. Instead of her awarding good behaviour awards each week, she had each child assess their own behaviour. If the child felt they were good ALL week, they would have a leaf with their name on it on a merit tree in the hallway. Note that the merit tree was not in their classroom and none of the other classes in the school were doing this.

At parent teacher night, I asked why there were many leaves with the same names on the tree and there were none of the rest of class including my step-son. She told me how this worked and the students that were not on the tree had chosen not to put themselves on the tree.

This had gone on for nearly 4 months and I don't think anyone had actually questioned her about it, including the school administration. I questioned my step-son, in front of the teacher, why he felt that he didn't deserve to be on the tree. Remember that although the teacher didn't pick the kids, she did put the leaves on the tree as it was quite high up on the wall (thereby acknowledging the achievement).

The teacher had not called us about any behaviour problems, but my step-son felt that he didn't deserve to be on the tree because each week he would do something he felt was bad - like yell, get angry, get a bad mark on classwork, so he wouldn't put his name forward. He was also scared that if he did, she would turn him down. Needless to say he was in tears because no one had asked him about it before. The teacher was actually surprised to hear how self-critical my son was and how upset he was over this. She then tried to defend it by saying, that yes he was handful sometimes; thereby reinforcing his feelings that he deserved not to be ever on the tree. She had not, in the entire 4 months she was doing this, ask the children who had not put their names forward why they didn't do it. She just assumed that they decided not too because they were bad when they were actually beating themselves up over small things that she could have overlooked, but they didn't.

I was furious because a 4th grade teacher felt it was necessary for children to criticize themselves and then make a decision about whether to reward themselves accordingly and be publicly acknowledged for it.

Complaints to the school and the teacher did not do anything - the tree was still there by the end of the school year. My step-son, now that the entire problem had been acknowledged decided that it was now a point of honour NOT to be on the tree. We made special efforts to support him and acknowledge good behaviour and school work, even though his teacher was determined not to.(This message has been edited by kasane)

In today's age of celebrity marriages and divorces, Paul and Linda McCartney set an example. They were one of few celebrity couples to survive the pressure cooker life style of fame, and the strain this puts on a marriage. In their nearly 30 year marriage, they never spent a night apart, voluntarily. This came to an end in April of 1998, when Linda succumbed to breast cancer.

With Paul's recent remarriage and birth of a new child, I guess his practice of serial monogamy is going to get him drummed (pardon the pun) out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Websters defines adultery as voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. The emphasis is on voluntary. However you can then put a spin on it that even rape is adultery (which is still done in many parts of this world). Then you end up with the case of this woman:

"Zafran Bibi walked into the police station in the village of Kerri Sheikhan, deep in the valleys of Pakistan's North West Frontier, and gave a harrowing account of how she had been raped by a neighbour.

Medical tests were ordered, witnesses questioned and a trial was held. Defence lawyers were called in. But Pakistan's archaic legal system, a mix of secular and Islamic codes, offers little protection for women.

Bibi, 28, was convicted of adultery under Islamic laws which many regard as deeply prejudicial. Last month, a year after she reported the rape, a judge sentenced her to death by stoning."

So if we follow this thread through its many twists and turns, we can come to the conclusion that to prevent abortion (especially those pregancies from rape, sexual assault and adultery) we must confine the woman or girl until she gives birth and then take her out and stone her to death for adultery. That will show em! Even better, any one who has premarital sex or been accused of it can also be included.

As a matter of fact, it can be a family affair, since the family of the stoning victim must be present at the stoning and cast the stones. Those of you who have college age daughters who might have been date raped at college can save a bundle on tuition.

That will keep your daughters and wives home at night (and during the day). Your wives and daughters cannot be left in the company or presence of any male that is not a relative. As a matter of fact, she'd better cover up her tempting looks as well.

"There's much to be said for that system". I can only hope your tongue was firmly-in-cheek when you stated this.

New Delhi July 9. An HIV-infected woman in Kuppam of Chittoor district was stoned to death on July 4 [2003].

Stoning in Iran, The Washington Times, February 27 (this was dated about 1997)

"The condemned are wrapped head to foot in white shrouds and buried up to their waists.

"Then the stoning begins. The stones are specifically chosen so they are large enough to cause pain, but not so large as to kill the condemned immediately. They are guaranteed a slow, torturous death. Sometimes their children are forced to watch. Their offense is usually adultery."

The penalty for adultery under Article 83 of the penal code [in Iran], called the Law of Hodoud is flogging (100 lashes of the whip) for unmarried male and female offenders. Married offenders may be punished by stoning regardless of their gender, but the method laid down for a man involves his burial up to his waist, and for a woman up to her neck (article 102). The law provides that if a person who is to be stoned manages to escape, he or she will be allowed to go free. Since it is easier for a man to escape, this discrimination literally becomes a matter of life and death.

Article 104 of the Law of Hodoud provides that the stones should not be so large that a person dies after being hit with two of them, nor so small as to be defined as pebbles, but must cause severe injury. This makes it clear that the purpose of stoning is to inflict grievous pain on the victim, in a process leading to his or her slow death."

I want to point out thought that the Koran does not sanction this. It is how it is "interpreted" by local religious leaders. What makes this hideous crime even more abhorrent is that it is carried out under the name of Islam. The Quran and the Prophet of Islam despised such behavior. On the contrary, in the Quran and the Prophet's traditions, such barbarism is denounced. The Prophet did his utmost to eradicate backward traditions, including stoning, which victimized women."

I guess even the worst behaved person in the world, would not do ANYTHING to offend anyone, if the penalty was this.

Well, lets get this straight right now gentlemen.

The moment you guys get pregnant, you get the chance to decide whether to carry to term or not.

It is probably only in the last century and this one that abortion can be called a "medical procedure". And only in the last 30 or so years was it made legal (with conditions) in many countries, including the USA.

In the eons prior to that it was a desperate measure by a woman (with or without the aid of another person) to terminate a pregnancy. It always ended in the death of the fetus. The mother would die either during the attempt or shortly after from infection or blood loss.

Many older physicians can probably tell you of the women who were brought into hospitals ill or dying from abortions that were self-terminated or abortions by some back-alley abortion mill.

It was a recognition that abortions were going to happen, irregardless of the danger to women, that abortion laws and medical procedures were established. This ensures that the abortion itself did not result in the death of the woman.

Yes, this is a "women's rights issue". Without their political pressure in the latter half of the last century, women would probably still be terminating their pregnancies with knitting needles and bleach.

Yes, a woman has the right to choose. Yes, her physician is the one to discuss the matter with her - reviewing all the medical impacts of the procedure. She can discuss the "morality" of the matter with herself, her religious counsellor or any counsellor (friend, social worker, etc) that she cares to pick.

The final decision is hers and hers alone.

I am Canadian and I have lived in the USA for nearly 10 years. I still think that Americans have totally missed the point of what a Canadian or British health care system is about.

Everyone is covered - the young, the old, the sick, the well, the poor and not so poor and yes the rich.The employed, the unemployed. You don't have to worry that you will lose the house if someone gets sick.

EVeryone pays something into the system. What I paid through my taxes to support the Canadian medical system - my husband pays even more (and his company benefit plan) into the American system for our coverage. If he loses his job - bye bye medical coverage. He's diabetic - no other medical insurance is going to pick him up. In Canada, it doesn't matter whether you are employed or not. You are covered.

Sure you wait to get into see your primary physician (who doesn't). I have waited for an appointment here in the USA too and just as long or longer.

It takes time to see a specialist in Canada - but that is also a function of distance for many people (sometimes up to 500 miles) due to the geography of the country.

Sometimes the government has to step up to the plate and take the lead in ensuring a better life for its citizens. The muscle of a government (actually governments as each province manages its portion of the health care system)can buy goods and services (like drugs) at considerable discounts and provide that benefit to its citizens. (Why else would Americans be buying drugs - many manufactured in the USA - from Canada if this system didn't work).

I remember when the Medicare system was introduced (and it was proposed from a member of a small political party - not one of the major players (see the benefits of a multi-party democracy?) and was picked up and carried nationally in the 1960's. People were nervous, but the system worked and continues onward today - it is continually being tweaked, but no political party or government is going to dismantle it.

Just to point out, in case any one gets the idea Canadians have bad teeth as well - the Canadian Medicare system doesn't cover dentistry - this is still a pay as you go system (unless you buy private dental insurance). It also doesn't cover drugs except for small segments of society such as seniors and they generally have to meet a deductable depending on which province they live in.

Yes I "paid" for my health system in Canada through my taxes - that is one of costs of being a Canadian. I pay nearly the same amount in tax here in the USA, I get no health care benefits for all that and I still have to pay for medical insurance on top of it. Boy that's a system I want to keep (sarcasm intended).(This message has been edited by kasane)

"If the collective nation recognizes homosexuality as a perversity, then politicians and the courts should honor that standard."

Collective nation? Define collective. A majority? 50.5%, 99%, 100%? If every person in the nation that had the right to vote (not registered to vote - but met the citizenship and age requirements to vote), voted on this issue, you would not get 100% in favour or against. By the very nature of the voting process (the measure of agreement), you would have the very people this affected voting on the issue (or would you deny their rights to have a say in the matter).

True everything comes at a cost. Utimately though it is how much or how little each person benefits from the cost involved.

The cost of health care in the USA is so high/person that many millions cannot afford the cost. Those that can, can only afford to pay (insurance, or fees) for themselves and immediate families, and that's all who benefit.

Canada has set their system up that every person pays somethiing (if they pay taxes) and ensures that EVERYONE gets something back for it.

The Boy Scouts (depending on the Council) now have insurance coverage for leaders and boys. Theoretically, it is a secondary line of insurance (primarily liability, but there is some medical coverage), but how many of your unit's families actually have health insurance? Think how many of your boys (and leaders) can't even afford a uniform. Do you think they have any medical coverage? And we take them out on events where they handle axes, fire, could drown, etc. Even attending a tiger meeting at someone's house could be hazardous to the boy's health - exposure to measles, chicken pox, etc.

The cost is picked up by an organization, which over-insures those that are already insured - and if pressed will cover those that don't have any at all.

What kind of market economy is that?

""Do you think there are other prohibited marbles still in the container?"

Yes there are and if left in the container long enough they will contaminate the entire container. "

Wow! What a statement. I wonder if this was the same argument used before the schools and armed forces were integrated?

I am very glad to see the boys were confident enough to go against the prevailing peer pressure at the OA fellowship and tell them to cut out the vulgur jokes.

However, my question is - if the slurs were made about another ethnic group would you as a parent continue to allow your son/child to be member of that group?

There are many boys (I would consider any young man under 16 a boy) who are still forming their opinions, morals, ideals, etc in life and are members of OA. Exposure in a peer group that condones this kind of behaviour generally results in another young man with the same opinions, morals and ideals. If the purpose of a fellowship weekend is to have everyone sitting around telling jokes about someone different than they are, then I would reconsider my son's membership in that group and contact the local chapter and lay a very very big complaint.

You are correct Ed.

Wrong word - I should have used regulated instead of controlled. The laws here in the USA differentiate alcohol, tobacco and controlled substances.

The point that I was making however is still the same - if you can't have any alcohol anywhere at a scout function (including religious ceremonies), then tobacco will have to be prohibited too.(This message has been edited by kasane)

Tobacco is a controlled substance. You can't buy it unless you are a certain age (depends on the state/province). You are carded if you don't look the legal age and tt is illegal to consume if you are underage.

It is also illegal for an adult to provide the substance to minors.

Just to turn the thread a bit.

If there is to be no controlled substances consumed while on scouting business, then smokers would have wait until they are out of uniform and the scout business is finished. This would apply across the board to committee meetings, campouts, troop meetings, etc.

There would be no sneaking off behind the bushes to have a smoke. The kids know who smokes and wondering if it is so bad, why are the leaders doing it anyway (and sneaking off to do it)? They may not be smoking in the presence of scouts, but you can sure smell the tobacoo smoke when they get back. What message is that?

Also when leaders/parents are driving kids to camp and other outings, the leaders/parents driving their own car, smoke during the drive. We have seen kids head for the non-smoking cars when they can.(This message has been edited by kasane)

Our troop found itself in a similar situation a few years ago. One of the boys brought a recipe for a spaghetti sauce that required wine as one of the ingredients (not sherry or cooking wine, but actual wine).

The sauce was made at home by the father and the boy brought the sauce in a container and added it to the spaghetti (his turn to cook for the patrol). By all reports the sauce was terrific. The boy then shared the recipe with his patrol and the leaders at the campout. The wine was mentioned. The leaders went uh oh, but underplayed it with the other kids. It appeared to blow over.

After the campout, one of the mothers found out about the wine and went ballistic. She complained to the troop committee about alcohol on a campout and the leaders on the campout were reprimanded even though committee members were on the campout and ate the same meal.

The irony of this whole matter was that the father who prepared the sauce was a former scoutmaster of the troop (and a very good gourmet cook). The mother who complained about the wine incident to the committee was his wife.

Apparently another parent complained to her and she (without all the facts, including whose kid it was that did the cooking - hers) went straight to the committee to complain about leaders "drinking wine" on a campout.

Needless to say, recipes were veted a little more carefully after that.

Further to Rooster7's last comment "Heterosexual adulterers have not formed a special group to force their way into the BSA as accepted members! "

Well, in case no one was actually looking closely at the adults in scouting - heterosexual adulterers are already in the BSA (as well as alcoholics, spouse batterers, thieves, embezzlers, etc). Apparently adultery is a given in socieiy . Many people wouldn't pass scrutiny as a leader if being an adulterer (past or present) was a criteria for rejection in the BSA.

My husband came back from a campout (as a parent - preleadership) complaining about the behaviour of two registered leaders (scoutmaster and committee member), both married (not to each other) (one male, one female). While public displays of affection were not apparent, the closeness of the two (the little private moments, personal time together, little asides, etc) did not go unnoticed by any adult on that trip and by our son (who was 11 at the time - boy did we have to sort out some questions from him - and he was one the most clueless kids we had). The two adults in question also had sons on the trip - I don't know how much they noticed, but if my son figured out something was up - I am sure they had something to say to the other parent when they got home.

My husband was livid ("I don't care what consenting adults do - not in front of the kids!") and signed up as leader right away. We didn't change troops, just leadership. Both leaders were gone shortly after (and their marriages about a year after that).

If adultery is the criteria for keeping homosexuals out of the BSA, then it should be applied across the board to all members (and professionals if you want to keep that standard). If homosexuals are thieves, then all thieves should be kept out (bad example for the kids). But then how could we tell who was a thief (criminal record?) or an adulterer (family counselling records, finger pointing in the community?)

Once you start removing those issues (adultery, thieves, liars, cheats -all of which I feel fit under the "not morally straight"). Morally straight is more than not having sex with someone of the same gender. Morals keep you straight in the sense of lying, cheating, stealing, etc.

I just love throwing spanners into the works.

If a boy was leaving the troop for another one and he still had money in his scout account - we (the committee - not the scoutmaster) would see what fees were still owing. If nothing, then we would write a check payable to the boy and the new troop he was going to: Joe Smith and Troop 12345.

The only way it could be cashed was the boy had to countersign it over to the new troop and they would deposit it into his scout account with them.

No funds in the boy's account - no money transferred. The only time a direct check would be written to the boy or his family was if they had given the troop money to place in his account to be used for camp or other costs. Our treasurer would then figure this out and remit that amount directly back (or the unspent portion).

We always had the problem of who gets what share of the profits of a fundraiser (troop and/or boys), especially when the same boys/parents would come out everytime. These hard workers would then end up subsidizing the boys/parents who didn't show up (some may have had valid reasons).

In order to get around this problem and to make it fair to EVERYONE (parents, boys, troop, and anyone else who might have a vested interest), our troop decided to levy a user fee (troop fee, whatever) of $100/boy (payable in two installments) that could be taken out of the boy's scout account. This is not weekly dues - that still had to be paid

All fundraising money (the profit obviously) would be kept by the boys (we only did two a year) except that the troop would get $100/boy to go into the troop fund to offset the trailer, tents and other equipment. A boy could fundraise as little or a much as he wanted as long as he/parents could pay the $100 - the remainder of the funds the boys could keep in their scout accounts to pay for their scouting expenses.

Prior to doing this, we had very little participation in troop fundraisers. After this, every boy was able to meet the minimum $100 and most were able to raise much more than that and pay for jamboree, uniforms, summer camp, trips, etc.

The grousing amongst the parents stopped. If done right, the $100 didn't have to come out of their pocket - but if they helped sell chocolate bars or popcorn, that money went to the troop and the leftover to their son's troop account. We had boys who sold the minimum and others who banked $500 to $600 after a fundraiser.

We split the payments into two - one after the spring fundraiser, and one after the fall fundraiser. This made it easier on boys who couldn't participate in a fundraiser and for those just joining or leaving the troop we pro-rated.

In a troop of 20 to 30 boys, the troop was able to collect a minimum of $2000 per year which paid for maintenance on the trailer, new tents and other equipment. Some of the funds were set aside each year into a reserve fund (in anticipation of a new trailer), but most was spent out each year to maintain the equipment. The parents were given a financial report on the troop expenditures at least twice a year (the committee each month), and each boy received a report on their account balance each month.

If this is done right, the parents would not have to dip into their pockets (except for when the boy first joined) to pay for scout expenses. We had a lot of single-parent families and low-income families in our troop. This arrangement allowed them to keep their boys in scouting without undue financial hardship.

I

NJCubscouter said"I would hope that what National would actually do is allow a boy to give his side of the story before taking any action, but I will readily admit that I do not know that for certain, since I am not familiar with this aspect of BSA procedure. Logic would suggest that more than a phone call from someone claiming to be a victim, or a victim's relative, when there is no public record of an offense, would be necessary for this type of action".

Actually, there is no logic in at all - boys and adults have had their memberships revoked in the BSA based on allegations and accusations by disgruntled parents and leaders, when there is no evidence to support it. (and I am NOT referring to any gay or aethist issues here). If a leader or parent has an axe to grind about a boy or another leader and is able to get the Scout Executive on their side (with or without any evidence proving the allegation), the letter "revoking membership in the BSA" is issued.

A boy or leader is permitted to give their side of the story during the appeal process providiing he can find out what the allegations are so he can defend himself. This is made extremely difficult because most Scout Executives will NOT give them the information as to WHY they had their membership revoked. They give the generic "you know what you did" and will not give anything out even to the accused so they can defend themselves. Outside of a police investigation, court case or Social Services investigative report, the scout executives have really nothing to base their explusions on, except rumor and innuendo. I would think that if my name was in an investigative report, I would expect to see a copy of it and see what I was accused of. If there is no report/investigation, on what do they base their decision (allegations by disgruntled parents/leaders)?

People can and do this kind of stuff in scouting. I never thought I would see this, until I got out of the fray of pack and troop leadership and became a commissioner. Tenure in boy scouts (whether the kid becomes an eagle or not) is a pretty big deal for some parents - it is becoming a career builder for some kids (college admissions, job placements). Other people know that they can destroy a kid's and his parent's aspirations very easily by throwing a wrench (or an allegation) into the scout's record. A scout leader's reputation and self-respect can be destroyed very easily by a disgruntled parent.

Sometimes the rumors are like a game of telephone - it may start innocently enough, but laundered by gossip - something innocuous can become very serious indeed.

My question is:

After the entire revocation of membership appeal process is pursued up to National and they deny reinstatement of membership, how is it that the District can re-enroll the scout and permit him to complete his scouting career up to Eagle?

i have seen these revocation of membership letters (from District up to National). Once the National office has denied membership - no council is going to re-enroll a scout - you are banned for life. Possibly somebody wasn't checking the paper trail? Was the boy registered under a different version of his name (eg danny vs daniel for example?). If the council accepted his registration (under the table it seems) - then they have basically admitted that the National ban has no standing (the council/district can do what they please) and or that the original allegations were bogus and that they are hiding liability in this mess.

I hope the parents have a good lawyer - this should be interesting.