jrush

I suppose it depends on how small the PSK needs to be, although I did forget about the little LED lights.

why not add a fleece cap?

a tube tent?

extra socks?

chocolate bars?

pocket saw?

At some point, your PSK no longer fits into a pocket without being noticed.

you made a good point, though...I've always used "iodine tabs" as a generic term for water purification tablets...the new stuff I've been using doesn't have iodine in it.(This message has been edited by jrush)

jblake,

I'm not sure that is as much of a problem, because the group that elects the SPL will turn right around and elect their own PLs.

If the scouts have "buyer's remorse" after a month or 2, well, tell them "elections have consequences" and they need to remember that in 4-5 months when the next elections are held. Boy Scouts is about preparing young men to be responsible members of society.

Further, it's not the SPL's job to "run" the PLs. The PLs don't work for him...the PLs work for their patrols. IMO, the SPL is there to be the link between the adult leadership/troop committee/etc and the PLC. Now, whether the troop is operating by the PLC giving their plans to the TC or the other way around is besides the point. Point is, it doesn't matter if a troop has one patrol or six...the SPL can be that adult-to-patrol link.

So, SPL being a luxury v/s necessity is predicated upon the adult leader to patrol relationship. If you don't mind the patrols coordinating directly with the adults, then it is a luxury, no matter how few or many patrols you have.

Well, it honestly depends on just how "minimalist" you want to be.

If you look at survival guides, personal kits are small, about the size of a tobacco or mint tin...think "deck of cards" size, not "quart ziplock bag" size. As has been said, the size kit you have in your jacket pocket and don't know it's there.

few iodine pills in a small bag

small fishing kit (3 hooks, 3 sinkers, 20' of 20# mono fishing line) in small bag

condom (use for canteen)

few vaseline soaked tinder tabs

few tylenol and benadryl in small bag

razorblade (masking tape over cutting edge)

few pieces 22 ga snare wire

50' 50# braided cord

2 needles

firesteel

10 waterproof matches

piece of a wax candle

small (12"x12" or so) square of aluminum foil folded up

No blanket, no tarp, no food, no bundles of 550 cord, no flashlight, etc. If you are talking about friday afternoon until saturday afternoon, as long as they have a water source they'll be fine. Food isn't necessary, a fire isn't necessary. You *did* say minimalist. I'd make an exception for anyone with special dietary/medical needs such as diabetes.

This being boy scouts, I'd give them an empty pint water bottle instead of making them use a condom, but the important thing is making them think about how they will contain water with the items in a pocket-sized kit.

Of course, have the appropriate "safety stuff" in case you do have a sudden rainstorm + 20 degree temperature drop. A tarp, blankets, some dry tinder and wood, dry clothes, etc) Yes, they'll actually be fine if they march around all night, but at some point you cross the line from adventure to "practicing being miserable".(This message has been edited by jrush)

Time for a poll?

a) we should have an e-chit covering devices, uses, etc

b) we should get rid of all those "chits" and simply have adult and green bar leaders hold scouts accountable for responsible use of anything that can be dangerous if mishandled.

Eagle, who said churches are supposed to stay out of societal issues and politics? That's the entire point of the church in the first place...social stability. There's a reason why in many towns and cities, from rural America to medieval Scotland to Persia, the chuch was the largest, most imposing building. That's not a bad thing, either. We just need to stop pretending there's some invisible line the church can't cross.

If the people truly want the church out of politics and societal issues, they can amend the US Constitution accordingly to give government the power to prevent it.

Not even the founders saw a line for the church. They saw that the federal government didn't need to be in the business of establishing or restricting religion. What it can and can't do outside those lines is a matter of the courts, which are the ultimate result of elections, and thus the will of the electorate.

Scoutfish, that has been a natural consequence of mixing religion with democracy, ever since the athenian assembly first called a vote.

About the only way this is prevented is through the adoption of a atheist dictatorship, in which religion is publicly ignored if not suppressed outright.

Otherwise, majorities can (and almost invariably will) use government to force at least some part of their religious moral code, if not their religion itself, on others.

nldscout, the problem is it's a felony, which doesn't make it a "private transaction".

If you want it to be a private transaction, it doesn't need to be a felony.

If a person doesn't want their nude photos freely distributed, they either need to be copyrighted or not taken in the first place.

Well, that's this SPL's leadership style, and if the scouts in the troop object, someone else will be SPL soon enough. If they don't object, maybe they don't want patrol/troop seperation quite as much as you do.

I suppose I would step back and see how having a senior youth leader tagging along on a patrol campout works. Is he there to take the opportunity to learn how adults supervise and mentor, is he there to provide mentorship to a PL and APL, is he there to supplant the PL and "run the patrol" or is he there to just be "one of the boys"?

I don't know why anyone would be surprised...this is what happens when you have a nonsectarian service organization attempt to include a nod to Abrahamic religion.

Eventually, one or the other simply has to go...they can't coexist. Eventually the BSA is going to do the same thing. It's either going to have to dump "public God" (i.e., the religion awards, the bar on atheists, the bar on homosexuals, drop vocal prayers for moments of silence) or dump all pretense at being nonsectarian and choose where to draw it's line in the sand...at Abrahamic Monotheism or Christianity.

Either way, ther will be some unhappy people in Scouting.

I thought the point wasn't to reduce the number of knots in the inventory, but rather the number of knots on the shirt.

If that's the case, then the scout shop could stock the "bare" knot and the "CS + BS" knot.

I always thought it would look "cleaner" if there was a "training" knot, a "leader" knot, etc, with something to denote multiple awards the way the military does oak leaf clusters, service stars and numerals on different awards.

That way, you get the best of both worlds...recipients can have everything they've done be displayed, at the same time having a cleaner uniform.

There isn't any reason they couldn't make the knots with the devices embroidered on them.

Eamonn,

Bottom line, there will always be those problems with the education system as long as a publicly-funded education is considered a right, rather than a priviledge.

Many parents aren't involved because they don't have to be.

Many students aren't involved because they don't have to be.

The oversight system requires schools to keep students on the grounds as far as they possibly can.

The oversight system in place forces schools to graduate everyone they possibly can, no matter what.

Look, I taught for a year. ISS was limited to the number of seats in the ISS room. If ISS was full, punishment was downgraded to detention. OSS counted against the school's attendence. If the attendence % didn't allow for OSS, it wasn't given. Conceivably, you could have an OSS offense (such as fighting) downgraded to detention and a call to momma. I kid you not, we had physical assaults on teachers (caught on security camera) that never made it to a tribunal. I don't fault the school or even system administrators...they don't want to fall on their swords. I don't even blame teachers that cheat the standardized tests. You stand to get fired anyways if the kids who skip class every other day fail it.

I don't even blame the oversight system that practically forces schools to keep violent students in the classroom and practically forces teachers & administrators to dope standardized tests.

Why? Because that oversight system is supporting the requirement to keep kids in public school until the age of 16-18 as a practical matter unless they are incarcerated. If they wish, they can choose to stay in school, just hanging out and scoring the free breakfast and lunch, into their 20's.

The first step in "fixing" public education is to make it a priviledge which can be lost. Any other proposal is destined to fail because compulsory attendence undermines the entire system. Whether you propose federalizing education and get the states out of it, or "statizing" it and getting the feds out, either way, compulsory education undermines it...because you are forced to keep kids in the classroom until it is legally feasible to be rid of them...and that level is pretty much incarceration.

My suggestion would be that the government guarantees you an education for either 6 years or age 12, whichever comes first. After that, your education is a priviledge. Truant half the semester? You're done. Punch a teacher? You're done. Bring a weapon to school (a real weapon, not nail clippers), you're done. Fail the end of year promotion test (unless you're special ed), You're done. Stay at home, walk the streets, whatever...but tax dollars will no longer be wasted in further bid to educate you.

Well, this will be an unpopular opinion, but if it was up to me to fix public education

- remove mandatory attendance requirement

- split schools into "general ed" and "technical ed" starting at 7th grade.

"technical ed" schools will have:

focus on math/science/technology/literature curriculums

parents will be required to join PTA

intramural sports

semiannual "up or out" testing

"general ed" schools will have

focus on math, reading and writing

parents have option of joining PTA

varsity sports

cosponsored by local businesses

Base, I guess I should've been more clear with what I was saying...

There is "the woodbadge experience" as far as the course content (which is what I was saying most of us see the same thing), and there is "the woodbadge experience" as far as what the participants get out of it...largely based on why they went and how the course was presented.

I'll grant you, there were some disgusted faces among the patrols about halfway through TGOL, but as I've said in other threads, people are who they are, and putting them in a shirt with some patches on it doesn't change that.

WB today is different than WB from 100 years ago...but then again, the Boy Scouts as a whole is that different, as well...that's my point. Should we all just abandon Boy Scouts as a "pale imitation of what it was" because it isn't the program that West and Goodman and Boyce were involved with? Hell, Boy Scouts today isn't even the BSA I was involved with just 25 years ago...that's not going to make me say "WTF...this is a waste of time".

shortridge, thanks for posting that...a lot of people don't know that the ruling was reversed, and why.

Jay, I wouldn't say Basement's experience was "atypical"...his WB course sounds like like every other modern WB course.

He certainly has a different assessment of the VALUE of the course than you or I do, but that's not atypical, either. This board is FULL of Scouters who were cajoled/pushed/etc into taking WB for various reasons, and if I was similarly manhandled into the course, I'd have a sharply negative point of view about it, as well.

(This message has been edited by jrush)

No need to scrap woodbadge.

There's no reason it couldn't be "converted" into MOLS or something along those lines. Will it? Not as long as the national vision of scouting doesn't focus on the outdoor experience, but that's no reason to simply abandon the adult leadership course started by the founder of scouting. If you're going to do that, let's just disband the BSA and be done with it.

Beavah, the problem with that is what constitutes someone's "own best self" is purely a matter of personal opinion.

Horizon, our SPL stopped the game on more than one occasion to make us recite the Scout Law, and we STILL had group leaders do the two-face thing right up to the very end.

resqman,

The point about outdoot leader isn't to teach adults how to run a weekend campout...the SPL and PLs run the weekend campout. You just need adults to check the YP block and drive them there.

Outdoor leader is to introduce adults to the "current Boy Scout standard", so the adults know "what right looks like" when Bill the TG/trainer/PL/etc is teaching a class on campsite selection or orienteering or whatever to a passel of bright-eyed tenderfeets.

"Someone at national thinks RTs are not being used. The training update even says that."

Well, Eagle, when there are entire Councils who don't have a single district doing RT, I wonder where national would get that idea...

Sasha,

Who has more influence with a teenage boy? A 21 year old cool older brother, or mommy?

I don't doubt there was fear involved, but I do doubt it was fear over physical safety.

Moose, you just reminded me of my favorite literature quote, courtesy of RHH:

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense."

Basement, I think Kudu finished venting in the other "why WB stinks" thread.

I don't know why you want him commenting in this thread...the two of you both apparently had poor WB experiences, but for two very different reasons.

If Kudu (and many other Scouters, point of fact...I certainly agree with his concept) had his way, the WB course you were forced to attend would have had ZERO, versus little, applicability to you as a Cub leader. The GBB "real" patrol method of scouting doesn't even need Cub Scouting to exist, and quite frankly, under his "real" Patrol Method, Boy Scouting is better off without Cub Scouts. Why? Under GBB's "real" patrol Method, the adults are virtually invisible. Basically, you only need adults to handle background noise like the Troop Budget, CO stuff and do the SM conference and BOR. Boys do EVERYTHING else without adults, from signing off on requirements to supervising multi-night camping. That, quite frankly, makes Cub Scouting (where adults do virtually everything) a distractor...because you have to "untrain" up to 5 years' habits by both adults and boys the minute they show up in the Troop. Far better they show up fresh, with no misconceptions about the roles of the Scout and the adult.

WB is a corporate leadership and management course, which gives you the opportunity to see where you and the organization can both improve each other. It is to help you relate better to youth and parents, help you understand what is important to National (such as the required "diversity" goal), etc.

If one is basically "forced" to take it in order to put on programs, I can see where there would be some resentment toward to course. But, you resenting the course due to actions of your District and Council leadership is just as misplaced as Kudu blaming the course for not teaching William Hillcourt's "real" patrol method...which I compared to someone blaming the gun for the actions of the mugger who stole your wallet at gunpoint. I'd be pissed too if the DE told me I had to take WB to put on pinewood derby for my Pack...but I would blame my COR for not telling the DE to go pound sand versus blaming a 6-day course that has the core goal of improving both the adult leader and the organization.

WB "is what it is". It's a leadership & management course with a centralized syllabus and decentralized execution. It could be better, it could be worse. If you have an actual critique of the course syllabus, that's fine...just don't blame it for the actions of the Scouters.

Eagle, WB and JLT are still similar, and quite frankly, they should be. Why teach one theory of leadership and mentorship to the adult leaders and a different one to the teenage youth leaders?