Anonymous

Hello All:

Quite simply: What is Irving's policy about Webelos camping overnight? Our Troop is going on a "Snow Camp" in a couple of weeks and would like to take the Webelos II's with us.

The G2SS is somewhat abigious on this. The terms "parent approved adult", "expected" and "adult" are never used as a definitive statement. Can we assign three ASM's to three Webelos and have the Den Leader for the fourth?

Also, if your troop or pack has tried this, how did it work out. The Scouts are kind of hot on the idea, so I think any problems would be the Webelos being uncomfortable camping without their parents. The potential crossovers seem to be enthusiastic about the idea.

The name "Snow Camp" is misleading since we are in a Lodge. The Webelos' parents just can't work out staying that night.

Thanks for your help on this.

GOOD FOR THEM!!!

And congratulations to you. All your hard work is paying off.

As long as they are, in fact, a Patrol, and you approve their plan, they can go. It is, in fact, what the boys should be doing. It is what Scouting is all about.

My boy did it, and they still talk about it. As soon as his Patrol went, all the other Patrols started planning their own Patrol overnighters. One other Patrol has gone since. The boys regard it as "having arrived" as compotent Scouts.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=252607#id_255293

Let me preface this by saying that I don't personally mind female Scouters, as long as they understand what the Scouting method is.

The Troop that my boy [and I] transferred to has an unofficial policy that no females will be present on any overnight activity. This is because the boys want it that way. Nobody talks about it, but that is the way it is.

One of the old timer ASM's told me that the boys decided very early on that while they couldn't prevent a mother from going on an overnighter - that no one could force any Scout to attend any activity. I guess that a few years ago a new Scout's mother decided to attend a Camporee with her boy, and once word got out, all the other Scouts had to cancel for a variety of reasons. From what I can tell, no female in any capacity has ever tried since.

Is it right? - Probably not.

Is it politically correct? - No.

Is it what the Scouts want? - Yes.

I encountered this in the last Troop my boy and I were associated with, and now here again. In the previous situation the boys got bulldozed and voted with their feet. Here, the scenario repeats its self. I asked my son about it and he replied, Its just a lot more fun when there aren't any women there.. Why? I think we can just relax and, like..., be ourselves..

I know that this won't sit well with a lot of people on this board, but if you asked 10,000 adolescent boys whether they wanted to go camping with male chaperones or female chaperones, what do you think the majority answer would be?

Just my $0.02, for what it's worth.

There is only one appropriate answer to jwest93's question - "How do the boys handle the situation?"

Irving hasn't issued any guidlines that I know of. This clearly isn't a Committee issue.

Have the SPL put it to the PLC, let the PL's discuss it with their patrols, and have the Scouts formulate their policy toward electronic devices.

As near as I can tell, that is the BSA way of doing things.

I think the latter - I think they mostly wanted to do it just to prove to themselves that they could.

And they did.

Congratulations to you and your boys.

No congratulations to me - it was all the boys. I stayed out of it.

Was wondering what the ages and skill levels are of the boys in the patrol?

The Patrol has one 15yo and one 14yo Life, two 14yo and one 13yo Star, one 13yo 1st Class and one 12yo 2nd Class.

Well, they went, they camped, and they all came back alive and healthy.

It rained all day Friday and part of Saturday morning. I asked my boy if he thought that this was the time..... "We're SCOUTS!! " was his reply. Plus, he always carries the triple flame Colibri lighter we got him for Christmas, so off they went.

The hike was without incident, made camp no problem. Took a while to get a fire started, but once they did they didn't let it go out. They ate well and stayed warm and dry.

Broke camp without problems, hike back went quicker than the hike out, and they're home.

He spent most of last night texting his friends - I don't think this is going to be the last Patrol overnight in our Troop this year!

Good for them.

At the meeting last night the PL approached the PLC and laid out their plan. I think a couple of the PLC were suprised that a Patrol can camp alone. They gave their support to the plan.

The SM (to my suprise) gave his support as well. Even took the written plan and signed it: "Approved 10/1/09 - [signature]". Later, he asked me on the side if I knew about this. I said yes and allowed that I didn't want to interfere in any way. He aggreed that that was for the best.

So they're going next weekend. Score one for the boys!!!

Not to hijack the thread, however does anyone else remember something about youth protection and "no more than 3 year age difference" (I think in the context of sharing tents). Or did I (or the instructor) make that up?

That is only true if the older Scout brings his sheath knife !

Jackie PAPER and the song was about PUFF?

What do you think they were singing about? A boy and his magical dragon? Hello, anybody from the 60's out there?

According to Mary herself, in many interviews, it was a song about a dragon.

I grew up back then, too - and while folk wasn't (isn't) my favorite, a couple of PPM's once in a while still take me back .....

After last night's meeting, my son told me that his Patrol wants to camp alone. I asked him if he has approached the SM, and he said no. He said they want to write it all up first and present it to him next Thursday. They don't want to go far, just 5 miles or so and sleep out one night. They won't be out of a cell signal at any time.

As an ASM, I have no problem with this. The Patrol has two Life, three Star, one 1st Class and one 2nd Class. They are 15 through 12 years old, mostly 15 and 14.

He asked me if I had a problem with it, and I said no. I asked him what his backup plan was, and he told me they were going to go one way or the other, just with their own gear if the SM says no. I told him that I hadn't heard that.

It is a great thing to see the boys sprouting their wings. As nearly as I can tell, this is the first time any Patrol has proposed anything like this.

Just wanted to crow a little bit. I hope this gets to be a regular thing in our Troop.

I do:

Automotive Maintenance

Truck Transportation

Rifle Shooting

Shotgun Shooting - (far and away the boys' favorite!)

P.S.: Ditto pohsuwed on the civility of the thread.

I still recommend a quiet, mature, exit visit with the IH of the Chartered Partner. IMO, they deserve to know why their Troop is about to have a membership drain.

They know (or should) - the COR has a boy in the Troop. He is one of the younger Scouts, and she is part of the problem - or so I'm told.

Good luck finding a new unit that actually wants to do Scouting!

There are two Troops in our area, so there really isn't much of a choice unless we want to commute 20 miles or more. The boys from both Troops know each other.

I got a text from my son earlier that this is still going on at school. The Scouts from the other Troop are welcoming our boys to the Troop. Much excitement on that front.

It has been an interesting last few days, and many thing have become much clearer.

This weekend our District is having our Spring Camporee. (pioneering skills) The Patrols were preparing as per standard procedure.

Yesterday my son got an email stating that there would be no camping or cooking by Patrol at this event. He was one of the Scouts in charge of buying the food for his Patrol. The message explained that adults would cook for the entire Troop.

After dinner I made some phone calls and got a couple of answers. Certain mothers are tired of their boys coming home from weekends hungry. Our cooking has always been done by the boys, and most of the older Scouts are pretty good cooks. We try to duty roster one younger Scout with one older Scout for most duties. All of the menu planning, purchasing, preparation and clean up is done by the Scouts. The mothers are further suspicious of the cleanliness of the boys, the utensils, etc.

While talking to the SM, I came to realize what has been happening right in front of my nose.

We are about to become a mommy Troop. The mothers are going to be ubiquitous as a buffer between their boys and the program. I explained to her that this isn't the BSA method, it is exactly the opposite. She stated that it's going to be the program here from now on because it's what the parents want, and they pay the bills.

While I was talking to the adults, my son was talking to the boys. I guess this was the tipping point, as quite a few have decided to leave the Troop. Later last night, I got a call from an ASM from the other (Eagle Mill) Troop. I know him pretty well, and he graciously invited any Scout from our Troop who didn't want the new program to transfer to their (now) more traditional Troop. He said that they had been getting calls all evening. He stated further that his SM wanted me to serve as an ASM in the new Troop. I thanked him and their Troop, and told him that I would get back to them soon.

So I guess I'm going to lead a diaspora.

I suppose that, in hindsight, I should have payed more attention to the political goings on in the Troop.

The older Scouts, to a man, aren't going to the Camporee. I wonder what District will think when they see our campsite........

And I wonder what they'll think when they're flooded with Transfer Forms.........

It's going to be an interesting Thursday.

After yet another chaotic, pointless Thursday evening in the gym, I would appreciate everyone's take on the following situation:

I am living through the death of a long established Troop. It is a painful thing to watch and I seem to be powerless to reverse, or even slow, the dying process.

First, a little background. When my oldest son wanted to be a Scout I was thrilled. I was a Cub Scout/Boy Scout for nine years, finishing as a Life Scout, Brotherhood OA and SPL. He joined Cubs, and after receiving his AOL, joined this Troop along with three of his fellow Webelos. The four others went to the brother Troop to the Pack, but my son and the remaining three wanted a more adventure oriented experience as opposed to an Eagle Mill.

Everything went well for about a year. The SM was a great guy (although his son wasn't really with the program) and all the boys liked and respected him. He was organized and delegated the program to the older Scouts. They, in turn, delegated to the younger Scouts and everyone was engaged. My son's Patrol thrived, and the crossovers were soon joining in the higher level camping excursions with the older Scouts. The new Scouts earned rank and position quickly. We camped frequently, and the outdoor skills came rapidly and easily. The Committee recruited me as an ASM early on, which I accepted readily. I did IBSLT at their request - it turned out to be a whole lot of nothing IMHO - but that's another story.

Then, late last summer, things started to change. The SM had started working his ticket and had less time for the Troop. Camping went from every month to every other month. Meetings were less organized, the SM started missing meetings, and the Troop seemed almost adrift.

In November, a member of the Committee approached me about taking the job of SM. My response was that I didn't want to usurp the existing SM - the boys revered and respected him. She told me that family issues were taking a lot of his time. I decided that I would give the job two years, and I indicated this to the Committee.

In early January, the Committee Chair announced to the Troop that, with the blessing of the Committee and the CO, she was taking over as SM.

To say that the boys were stunned would be an understatement. The senior Scouts were in open revolt and the younger Scouts have had little to no guidance from the older boys since.

The new SM is a micro-manager. I try to have a quick (5 minute) PLC after each meeting, but the boys just don't seem to care anymore. She (the SM) doesn't care what the PLC thinks - SHE will set the agenda for the next meeting. She has made it clear that she will be APPOINTING the next SPL. I am trying to work with her, but she doesn't want my help anymore than she wants the Scouts' help.

I have been talking (on the side out of necessity) to the senior Scouts, trying to get them back in the fold. They're telling me that they don't have any input as regards the program anymore. The PLC tells me they can't even lead their Patrols anymore, let alone the Troop. They say they wanted me as the new SM. I tell them that I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere and try to explain the politics involved here. The Committee and the CO select the SM, and they just wanted her over me. The boys aren't buying it.

The Committee has reorganized and is now entirely female. The SM is female. The two other ASM's are female. I'm the only male Scouter in this Troop. The boys keep coming to me, and I think the SM is starting to resent it. She has reminded me on a couple of occasions that she is my boss.

So there it is. In just over six months a Troop with a proud 40 year history is in the death spiral. I have met privately with the SM for cocktails. I've tried to explain the boy run program to her. I've told her that she has my support (and she does), but to go from boy led to adult led in a matter of a couple of months is a dramatic change. She doesn't see things the way I do. She says transitions are always tough, but truly believes things will smooth themselves out. I hope so, but personally don't share her optimism. She is an attorney, and I suppose she has an idealistic perspective of things. I'm an operating engineer, and I guess I'm just a lot more pragmatic. I feel like I'm bailing the Titanic with a coffee can.

I'm ready to take my boy and walk away while there's still something to walk away from. We've discussed it, and he doesn't want to leave his buddies. But he doesn't want a female SM. None of the boys do. And more than that, they don't want a micro-managing SM. They want to operate as Patrols.

Is this Troop worth saving? I'd like to think so, but I'm probably wrong.

From the mouths of babes........