imascouter

I like what several have already said.... no bylaws needed - use Cub Scout Leader Handbook; and not bylaws but rather procedures.

When I was a CC I would send a group email to pack families with the highlights of committee meeting decisions. This became the reference point for new "rules" without having to publish something.

I echo Dsteele regarding the council and old books. I imagine that even if a council receives the books today that they will wait to sell off most of the old inventory before putting the new books out for sale.

If I were a scouter wanting a new copy of one of these books I think I would try to order one through the 1-800 number on the catalog asking first if they have the new edition.

I see you have to order the cloth from these folks for $45? I suppose it is non-profit!?

I have been making these out of paper (print flag on 8.5 x 11" paper) for about 5 years now. On the last fold I put a lanyard though it, then coat with Elmers glue. Coat and let dry several times. Put red, white, and blue beads on each end then tie together.

Makes a great temporary recogntion to hand on the boys pocket as a reward for ... learning to fold flag, learning other flag related stuff, or participating in a color guard for an important event.

Here's something new I have not seen mentioned around here; Youth Protection Training online!

Another Scouter told me about it the other night and I did not believe him. Checked it out myself. Although it does allow you to skim through the material, you do have to pass the test at the end (80%) to get certificate mailed to your council.

I also think you may have to access it through a council link for it to work. This will be a good way to get those "I don't have time to go to another meeting" adults trained.

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/ypt/ypt.jsp

Thanks for all the responses, I knew I could depend on all of you. In my article, I intend to cite this forum as one of my top three sources of excellent information. (Between actual manuals and networking with leaders at Roundtable.)

To respond to a few here:

KWC57 Funny you should mention it, I am writing about uniforming and will be looking for one of the annual forum discussions about whether a uniform is required next.

FScouter The "travel in class A" was the actual rule I was looking for in my original post. Yes, I think it is accepted as "fact" most everywhere.

Eamonn My phrase "district trainers" refers to the "staff" or regular volunteers of the District Training Chairman. I consider anyone who works two or more training events as staff each year as a "trainer."

Case in point: I am guilty of having passed along hearsay as fact myself. I have told the YP every two years "rule," and the uniform in travel "rule." There may be one or two I am telling that I don't even know are not rules yet.

It has not been a "stick to the syllabus" issue. It is common for new Scouters to ask questions of those whom they perceive as knowledgeable. (snicker) Some of the questions (as many of you know) have nothing to do with the current training at hand. Good up-and-coming leaders try to gain as much knowledge as possible, and they gobble it up from every source available. My intent will echo what several here have said, "if it's not in print, it's not a rule."

Thanks for everyones input.

I found the link this morning:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=23583#id_23608

Thanks for your help.

Of course my interest is piqued regarding YPT for 2 years also.

I am currently working on a training document and one point I am trying to make is that not everything you hear from scout leaders, even district trainers, is correct. Much of it is what someone else told them, heresay, and that new leaders should also refer to manuals.

To make my point, I would like to point out an example of a common misconception of the rules that is frequently taught by district leadership.

A while back there was a discussion about if it was really a rule that you had to wear class A when traveling to and from events. I would like to find that thread again, or information about it. Most everyone knows this rule and would be surprized to see it proved wrong. (I think it is a good IDEA, but not actually a rule.)

Where can I find this?

(I submit these for the local district newsletter, so hey, why not share here too!)

I wrote this a few years back for a pack newsletter, but it is still valid today. It may be useful to you for encouraging scouting families not to drop out of scouting during the end of the year, or over the summer.

Dividends of Scouting

You could skip Scouting and do all the same things with your boy and save a little money. But, for many of us, a structured program makes it easier to get things done. As pitiful as it is, I know I would not spend as much time with my son if it were not for this program. Scouting helps me to plan to do purposeful things with my son.

What is your son going to have when he finishes Scouting? Well, yes, once he learns to use a bowline knot, or square knot, he will use them even when he is very old. But more importantly, he will learn citizenship, teamwork, and leadership. I wont roll out the amazing statistics about how many presidents were scouts, or how many astronauts, or whatever. Instead, let me tell you about an older gentleman I met recently.

He looked to be a retired man working as a grocery store bag boy for something to do. My wife and I were just leaving the cash register when he noticed our uniforms. I was a Scout, and a good one too, he told us. I still know my Scout Oath! Oh great I thought, now I am being cornered into listening to this guy go down memory lane. On my honor I will do my best, he began, To do my duty to God and my country, and obey the Scout Law. Now I was intrigued. He really did know it word for word after all this time. Now I stood in review, interested to hear him say the rest. To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight! He was grinning ear to ear with pride. I shook his hand and told him very good, as I imagined his Scoutmaster from many years ago might have and we departed.

That kind man had never been president. I am pretty sure he was never an astronaut either. He might not have ever been a leader to anyone but his family, I dont know. But it was clear, Scouting had made an important impression in his life, and I bet he still lives by the Scout Oath.

What will Scouting do for your son? One can only guess, but to be sure, it will be positive. We might have a young Mars explorer in our pack. Maybe the architect of world peace. Or just as important, a person respected as a helpful friend and neighbor in our community.

Thanks for your kind comments.

Yes, publications online, available for all to reference. CD would be nice, but online has an advantage. Not all parents would have the CD, but you could easily tell a parent, "yes it is a rule, and you can view it at www.bsapub.org/scoutmasterhandbook/outdoorprogram/safeswim

If they go see it or not is another thing, but it gives them no excuse. Kinda like letting all parents come and vote at committee meetings... you can always say, "you had your chance two months ago when we made todays plans to have your say and change plans/policy/etc.

I would just like to add an additional comment to what I said earlier.

If the boy can (and does) pass the test without aids, then I see no reason for him not to be able to use them as he pleases during fun swimming.

If the boy tries to pass the test without them and can't then it means there is a strong potential for him to drown. (It will happen that these aids will get knocked off, leak, etc, during normal use.)

After all, this is the spirit of the rules; to keep a boy out of danger. It is the spirit of a rule that should guide you in your interpretation of the rule. In the case of safety, it is important to be conservative in how this is addressed.

As far as, "you'd have a bad scene if you kept one of my guys out on this basis." Uh, no I would not. If I am in charge, I am in charge, period. Responsible and capable adults do not give into parents who try to bully the leaders. I would however be pleased to shutdown completely, for safety reasons, any event I am in charge of until all participants and parents agree fully to my interpretation of the rules, or until those who supervise me find someone else to take over.

Making sure a boy does not drown is very important.

Youngblood: Stick to your guns. If a boy can't swim in deep water without aids, then he has no business in the deep water! I believe you have taken the stance of a responsible adult and someone I could trust my son with.

I do not know what the Irving, Texas interpretation of the rules is, but I suspect the "no aids" statement from G2SS is a strong clue!

I would not argue to much about earning the swimming merit badge with aids while an instructor watched this specific boy ready to rescue him. But I don't think that same boy should be allowed in water over his head with only group supervision.

IF, BSA's interpretation truly allows a boy in deep water, if he can only swim there with aids, THEN first, I can't be in charge, or anywhere close to that water as a responsible adult, AND I must WARN parents about that danger their son may choose to enter (w/ BSA's blessing) so they can make an informed decision for their family.

I hope the many lurkers (folks who just read here, but do not post) will thoughtfully consider this and investigate this within their own units.

I hope this is helpful.(This message has been edited by imascouter)

This from the Red Cross webpage at www.redcross.org:

Red Cross and Boy Scouts Sign Historic Training Agreement

Millions will be equipped with lifesaving techniques as the Boy Scouts become an authorized provider of Red Cross health and safety programs.

An interesting read -- check it out!

FLIP2028 said, " . . . pocket knife on campouts? Any suggestions for one?"

I recommend you DON'T choose any knife that is offered by Trails End Popcorn as a reward for sales.

My son already owned a knife when he received one of these Trails End knives. He brought the knife to me and said, "I must have got a left-handed knife." I was mystified, "what?!" He said when he tried to cut that the dull side was where the sharp side should be.

After inspecting the knife I found that of course it was cheaply made, but it was assembled correctly. The knife was just so dull that my 4th grade boy couldn't imagine that it had a sharp side.

Would one of you fine Scouters please pass the salt, pepper, and perhaps some of that salsa. I am hoping it will improve the taste of the crow being served here.

Arrived in the mail today, one copy of the R&R, and one copy of the C&B. Guess all councils, districts, and paid Scouters are not alike. I am big enough to say when I was wrong. Ahem . . . I was wrong.

As another follow up, Bob White was correct; nothing too much of interest in there for 99.9% of scouters.

Here is an item that I have been thinking about and may be useful to you in a Scoutmasters Minute, Scout Anniversary Banquet, FOS presentation, or similar event this month.

Scoutmasters Minute

Columbia Shuttle Tragedy

Last night NBC News anchor, Tom Brokaw, was on the David Letterman Show and was speaking about the Columbia Space Shuttle tragedy. Clearly reflecting on the romanticized heroes of the past, he mentioned how frequently Americans have asked, where are OUR heros the role models we are suppose to look up to? He flatly stated, we didnt seem to realize that they were right under our noses all the time the astronauts of the space shuttle program.

He was not just speaking of the perished crew of the Columbia, but rather ALL the shuttle program astronauts, who are the great adventurers of our time. In spite of the well known life-threatening risks of space flight, they press forward to new frontiers much like the heroes of Americas past. They are at the edge of the envelope in the space, science, and medical frontiers. Their actions are bettering OUR lives. Clearly, these people should be our heroes rather than the glitzy media-hounds of sports and music who have exploited their gifts for personal glory.

On the morning of the Columbia tragedy one of the television journalists was speaking about the crew and regarding the copilot, a former test pilot, she said something like, As a test pilot, could you ask for a better name than Willie McCool? They flashed his picture on the screen and he indeed looked like the All American Adventurer! Later at the NASA website, I clicked on the bio for Commander McCool.

The bio confirmed that he was a real person who enjoyed running, hiking, camping, playing guitar, and yes he was a test pilot. Under Experience was a long list of accomplishments in service to his country in the United States Navy, and NASA. Under Special Honors was another list. Included were, graduating second in his class at the US Naval Academy, two graduate awards at the US Navy Test Pilot School, two Navy Commendation Awards, two Navy Achievement Metals, and more. But the honor he listed first on his biography may be the one that set the pace for the rest of his life; the Eagle Scout Award.

Since 1910 Scouting in the United States has helped set the pace and direction for the lives of the young men it serves like Commander McCool. If you are looking for REAL heroes, consider our astronauts. To our young men; if you want to set a similar pace and direction in your life, make your first achievement, as Commander McCool did, the Eagle Scout Award!

(The last sentence should be changed to best fit your occasion. FOS: If you want to be a part of creating tomorrows heroes, your support of Scouting tonight is important. TRAINING: Your leadership and service in Scouting is key to creating tomorrows heroes. PR: If you want to set a similar direction and pace in your own life consider Scouting!)

I think it is the responsibility of the pack to ensure the transition of as many scouts as possible to troops.

I think it is the responsibility of the troop to ensure that as many scouts as possible are recruited into troops.

I think it is the responsibility of the District to ensure that these two are trained to do that job and to provide any help possible.

Now with that said, in the troop, whos responsibility is it? Is it the SPL's job to make sure it gets done? Is it the Scoutmasters job? Is it the committees job?

While I wait for the debate on that one, I will suggest that Scoutmasters should make themselves available (and bring ASM's with them when ever possible) for Cub Scout uniform inspections. (an impartial judge) To be present, and maybe a speaker at B&G banquets. Maybe to drop in on a family campout and teach a skill to the Webs. If that were to happen, the majority of families* would be very comfortable with that person and think that IS their Scoutmaster and move right into that troop.

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* majority of families defined as the vast majority of untrained, won't read nothing or do much more than drop off and pick up their kid. Based on standard parental participation. Your mileage may vary

It seems there is a lack of recruitment efforts made by troops. I suspect that many small troops could easily lure Webelos families away from the better known super-troops with a little bit of marketing. (Assign several troop parents individually to local packs to keep contact, make sure local Webelos dens have one of your Den Chiefs, make sure each Webelos den is invited to two events hosted by you, hold a Troop Open House, Scoutmaster get to know each local Webelos leader, etc.)

As a Webelos II parent and experienced leader I expected a bit of courting by troops, instead I really had to get out and find out where the troops are. Pitifully, I suspect there are troops I don't even know about.

I will recommend to the district a "Webelos Transition Fair" for next year. This will address the problem of dropouts who never make the crossover and will further address first year dropouts who didn't think of changing troops when they were unhappy with their current troop.

Just off the top of my head; it would be a one day event for Webelos FAMILIES featuring a hour long opening in an auditorium where the District/Council would welcome Webelos PARENTS to the event. They would tell them about how the Boy Scout Program is different from Cub Scouts; have a handout with a list of all troops, their geographic location, and contact names and numbers; the district can tell parents what to look for in a troop (boy ran, patrol method, new boy patrol, uniforms, variety of programs, etc.) This would be a great place for a slide show about all the exciting things that lie ahead. Also a good time for the district/council to talk about how troops differ (larger/smaller, focus of activities, influence of charter organization) and maybe cause consideration to be given to all troops.

After the opening dismiss participants into a concourse setting where each troop has a booth area. The booth will promote the troop, provide handouts with troop info, planned calendar with dates (does your troop meet on Band rehearsal dates? Do you have a lot of activities going on, or very few? Will your troop be doing [activity] that we are interested in?) and most importantly have adults and boys on hand to discuss with Webelos families what they have to offer and what makes them unique. I think MY troop should have several small caf tables to the side, to sit leaders with families, and a table top to fill out applications! (Knowing that I am going to be closing the deal with families, I would have some special thing for my boys, like the troop neckerchief, or handbook, or class B shirt. Kinda like the toy with the Happy Meal.) I am thinking each booth should have tons of pictures, displays, computer slide/data show, spirit on display.

How about we just say, (at some time) plan the pack meeting with representatives from the den.

Any other ideas for Marty on ideas for better pack meetings?(This message has been edited by imascouter)

Sprucing up the Pack meeting: (Now that we are really responding to Marty's comments, and no longer about presenting pins, I am going to start this as a new thread.)

Visit three other packs during their pack meetings. You will leave each with at least one good idea, maybe more.

Insist on the den leader (or a representative) being at the committee meeting and spend 15 minutes planning the next months pack meeting. (Use the planning sheet in the Leader book. Make copies of it for everyone at meeting. When they leave each has a copy of the meeting plan and knows who is doing what. At that point ANYONE could be the leader of the pack meeting.) Give each den one piece to do, a song, a skit, a game, a cheer, an opening, your helpers. (While I am thinking of it, assign one den to come early and set up, and another den to plan on staying late and cleaning up.)

Finally, ADULTS don't always like to sing songs. Boys love to sing songs if everyone else is. Don't let the ADULTS talk you out of doing songs at pack. Get the boys all down together to sing. Do fun songs. Do some songs regularly so they get to know them good. "Boom-Chicka-Boom" is universally loved by every boy I have ever seen!! (By the way, the Cubmaster does not have to lead the songs, you could have a regular person who doesnt mind do it.)

Get a few adults with you to have fun. When several adults are having fun at pack meetings, other adults will want to have fun too. Boys always want to have fun.

Resources: Check your Program Helps book (cheap, available at store) for ideas, also the current POW-WOW book, and "Baloo's Bugle" online, for on-topic ideas.

Ham it up! Have fun! When I had to fill in for the Cubmaster I would show up in costume to do a bit. One month I was a close friend of Galieo's and I told them about my friend and his discoveries while adults set up 5 learning stations about the stars and constellations. Another time I was a prospector looking for gold and I told them about all the trouble I had gone through, then we had a Paul Bunyan relay race in big old boots, big old flannel shirt and a fry pan with a flap-jack in it.

Don't let any one segment drag on too long. Do some awards at beginning and some at end if you need to.

Hope this helps.

Sprucing up the Pack meeting: (Now that we are really responding to Marty's comments, and no longer about presenting pins, I am going to start this as a new thread.)(This message has been edited by imascouter)

In addition to these collectable patches, I now additional offer to pay shipping charges not to exceed $3. (which is what I am told WAS the cost for product and S&H when National provided them.)

I really did not mean to start another thread for bashing councils. It is too easy to get started down that trail.

From the adult application: " b. In signing this application, I have read the attached information and apply for registration with (BSA). I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the rules and regulations of (BSA) and the local council."

Every adult agrees to comply with these rules, as such they should be commonly availble. I agree that these items should be posted on the Internet. At a minimum they should be available at the scout store.

But again I digress, I simply would like my own copy of the rules I pledged to follow.

Bob: The dog ate theirs, they don't have one now. BTW, how many pages is each pub?

(Note: this message cross posted in "Open Discussion" forum)

Here's the offer; 4 nifty patches, including a Florida council strip, to the person who can email, fax, or mail me a current copy of these documents.

"Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-492, and

"Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-491.

Been getting the run-around, so figured someone might like to get some patches the easy way.

(Ok, here comes the old Bait & Switch) Did I say kingdom? I meant some nifty scout patches.

In the 12/05/02 thread titled, "Troop Equipment Ownership Question" it was suggested that the answer lies in two publications, namely; "Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-492, and "Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-491. These are the rules you agree to live by when you sign forms as well, and as such I would like a copy of them.

In that same thread it is suggested that one can contact National for them. First I contacted the scout shop = "Go ask Council." Then I contacted Council, they handed me a card with the address www.scouting.org and said "guess you'll have to surf for it." Then I contacted National = "Only available from the council." Then I contacted council again = "we lost our only copy, we'll let you know when a replacement gets in." (Sounds like "the dog ate my homework")

I don't think I should hold my breath waiting for council to follow through, so here's the offer; 4 nifty patches, including a Florida council strip, to the person who can email, fax, or mail me a current copy of these documents. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks again.(This message has been edited by imascouter)