Hal_Crawford

Naming rights are a major source of capital for arenas and stadiums. Perhaps if the scouts receiving the camperships agreed to change their names to Ford or Samsung...

If they are allowed to rent to outside groups will they be allowed to pick and choose who they rent to? They could find themselves faced with rental applications from groups that would not be seen as consistent with the image of the BSA. They could be exposed to lawsuits if they discriminate. There is plenty of money to be made but they could be opening a Pandora's box.

Apologies for the triple post. I was having connectivity problems last night.

I'm with Cito, get your scouts away from the trailer. Our troop went through this same transition a few years ago. We started with a 4 mile hike-in to a cabin. Then there was a back packing camp out. That was about 7 or 8 years ago. For the last 5 years there has been a 5-7 day high adventure trek--backpacking or canoeing--every summer. We still car camp as well but the scouts really like the the backcountry.

When we are in the back country we carry a lightweight tarp that is used as a dining fly or as a cover for the pack line. We tie it between trees or use treking poles as tent poles. Set up is bear bags first, fly second and tents last. The latrine is a small trowel unless we are camping in a site with an established latrine. I haven't been to Philmont yet but this is essentially the way they do it.

It is unlikely that your scouts will learn anything about Leave No Trace unless they get a way from the cars.

I'm with Cito, get your scouts away from the trailer. Our troop went through this same transition a few years ago. We started with a 4 mile hike-in to a cabin. Then there was a back packing camp out. That was about 7 or 8 years ago. For the last 5 years there has been a 5-7 day high adventure trek--backpacking or canoeing--every summer. We still car camp as well but the scouts really like the the backcountry.

When we are in the back country we carry a lightweight tarp that is used as a dining fly or as a cover for the pack line. We tie it between trees or use treking poles as tent poles. Set up is bear bags first, fly second and tents last. The latrine is a small trowel unless we are camping in a site with an established latrine. I haven't been to Philmont yet but this is essentially the way they do it.

It is unlikely that your scouts will learn anything about Leave No Trace unless they get a way from the cars.

I'm with Cito, get your scouts away from the trailer. Our troop went through this same transition a few years ago. We started with a 4 mile hike-in to a cabin. Then there was a back packing camp out. That was about 7 or 8 years ago. For the last 5 years there has been a 5-7 day high adventure trek--backpacking or canoeing--every summer. We still car camp as well but the scouts really like the the backcountry.

When we are in the back country we carry a lightweight tarp that is used as a dining fly or as a cover for the pack line. We tie it between trees or use treking poles as tent poles. Set up is bear bags first, fly second and tents last. The latrine is a small trowel unless we are camping in a site with an established latrine. I haven't been to Philmont yet but this is essentially the way they do it.

It is unlikely that your scouts will learn anything about Leave No Trace unless they get a way from the cars.

Strangely written article. "Less stringent non-discrimination policy"? Less stringent that who or what? I am also not sure about the SM talking from a "military standpoint." Perhaps the GMC's approach is to not say anything that is clear and then do whatever they plan to do.

An update on Roy Antigua.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/267735/8/Cops-Man-with-fake-uniforms-IDs-is-an-actor-but-not-dangerous

Headline says he is an actor and not dangerous. The article describes him as "almost like an actor." Not the same thing. I think it is a bit premature to write the guy off as not dangerous. Maybe that is why he is still in jail and the authorities are still asking for tips. Gotta love TV news.

How is the phrase "gay boys" "NAMBLAesque"? Please explain.

I keep going back to these giant flies. Our troop used to do all car camping. We did a backpacking trip and suddenly things changed. Soon we had a high adventure program. Whenever we do a car campout with cooking areas close together--or worse yet, combined--I feel we are back-sliding. To me the troop trailer (our troop doesn't have one but has occasionally rented one from U-Haul), the giant fly, the huge cookstove (we do have one of these) are all the devil's tools to draw us away from the patrol method. OK, maybe that is over the top but you get my drift. With the exception of the occasional dutch oven, I am opposed to just about any piece of gear that you can't take backpacking. The older I get the ornerier I get on this subject. Leave the cars behind! Replace the phrase campsite parking with trail-head parking.

Peach cobbler alone justifies the dutch oven and you can still take a dutch oven on a canoe trek.

As to the original question about helping, it is a slippery slope. One of my fellow assistant scoutmasters is a life long outdoorsman and he loves to cook. He is a great guy and a good friend but it is amazing how quickly he can go from advising to helping to cook. I ultimately showed him a picture of him self, pot in hand while the scouts watched from a discreet distance. He got the hint. As adults we do have to step back. We should help when asked by the SPL, Patrol Leader or Crew Chief but when you realize the scouts are looking to you not him for direction, then you have crossed the line. During set up we are often observing from a distance to see if the scouts are observing LNT and bear safety in the site setup. We also look to see if there is trouble brewing between any two scouts and if the PL handling it.

BTW, in our troops the leaders do not usually do a separate cooking set up. We split up and eat with the patrols, we change up so that we can experience and rate each patrol's cooking. A camp one year the scouts asked the leaders for a cheer at our evening campfire. We came up with, "You Work, We eat, We think That's neat." Sounds lazy but the scouts aren't complaining.

Cub Scouts could be described as a "character development and activities group" but how many would join based on that description?

"She said she enjoyed the outdoor activities as well."

That gives a sense of where the emphasis is... daddy-daughter dances and mother-daughter teas. How about Yucky Brother campouts? This doesn't sound like an activity that is going to hold a lot of girls' interest bast age 11 or 12.

Does your troop ever camp more than 100' from the trailer?

I'll take NJ's suggestion one step further. Assemble a committee of 12 experienced scouters, folks that really know how scouting works or should work. Put them in a room with the mission to come up with the best way to track and record merit badges. We will continue to use Blue Cards or other existing methods until they reach consensus--I expect that will occur shortly after the eleventh scouter's funeral.

Yes Trevorian, it has certainly rained on their campfire down in Irving. Imagine a world where both candidates in a presidential election are critical of the Boy Scouts of America. In fact, it is the only thing that they presently agree on. They really need to ask themselves, "how did we bring ourselves to this point... and how do we correct our course." I hope for the sake of scouting that they figure it out.

When Carter was president I heard someone propose that the Constitution be amended to change the requirements for the president to be: a natural born citizen at least 35 years old and an only child.

Seriously, I have always thought that President Carter was a very decent individual. I can find no fault in his commitment to his fellow man. Like many decent men he failed to see that those around him did not measure up and his presidency suffered for it. I did not think that he was a good president (and he couldn't pronounce "nuclear" even though he majored in nuclear engineering) but if you just measured the man by the Scout Law I doubt that other presidents in my lifetime would rate any higher. Most don't get past "Trustworthy." He probably was a pretty good Scoutmaster.

That would only track diagnosed mental illness. There could be a whole lot of un-diagnosed crazy in Florida. Rhode Island may have better funded mental health services, leading to better screening and diagnosis. Or maybe they are just so much more crowded in Rhode Island that the mentally ill get noticed faster.

We have a lot of crazy people in Virginia but we have confined the worst to elected office in Richmond or exiled them to DC.

Jeffrey raises a good point. I had a friend who lived in LA and worked for a rock n' roll lighting company. This is about 30 years ago. His daily commute took him through one of the studio back lots. One day he was passing a TV shoot and decided that he would like to stop and watch. He had his tool belt so he stopped, put on it on and wandered over. Because he looked like he belonged there no one challenged him. Because there are so many crafts on a shoot, no one ever asked him to do anything--everyone assumed he was with a different crew. When he had seen enough he wandered away. He went on to do this a number of times and no one ever questioned him.

His motive was benign curiosity but what if he had been a stalker or worse? I suspect that crews today wear ID laminates but those are probably easier to fake than the assortment of ID the guy in Florida was carrying.

OK-If I had read the LA Times link in the previous post I would have realized that it answers most of my questions and confirms my suspicion that the big shift was around 1990.

The story just got repeated on ABC News during Good Morning America. Of course they didn't mention that these events happened over 20 years ago.

Question for long time Scouters: When did BSA institute the 2-deep leadership rule? When did they start offering Youth Protection training? I have been a scouter since 1996 and 2 deep has been the rule as long as I can remember. YPT was offered but not required when I started. The YP inserts were in the Cub handbooks when by son joined in 1995. My first mistake as a scouter--and there have been many--was not warning parents of new Cubs about the insert in the Wolf book. That was a surprise for Mom and Dad when their son started asking some very unexpected questions. When did those inserts first appear?

I am guessing that these things all appeared in the late 80s or early nineties as a result to the issues raised in this report. IMO, 2 deep is the the first and best defense against both child abuse and accusations of child abuse. Required training is a close and necessary second. While background checks are important they only catch the predators that have already been caught.

Great list of truths that I plan to share with others in our troop. Thanks.

Let's not forget Ben Jones (AKA Cooter), Democratic Representative from Georgia,1989-1993. Lost his seat when redistricting put him up against Newt Gringrich in the 1992 election. I worked on a show with Ben before he was Cooter. Nice guy; smart, common sense type. Certainly a more decent sort than Newt. He wasn't in politics yet but if I recall he was on Equity (the stage actor's union) Council. Before anyone makes snarky remarks about unions remember that Reagan was president of the Screen Actors Guild.

He later moved to Virginia and ran unsuccessfully against Eric Cantor.

And yet, a scout can get a religious medal for being a Buddhist. Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Here's a tough one that came out of a WFA class I took. Scouts are hiking and disturb a bees' nest. A scout with an undiagnosed allergy is stung and has a serious reaction. Another scout is severely allergic and carries a a pair of prescription epi-pens but he is not stung. As the first scout is going into anaphylactic shock do you, a first aider who is trained in using epi-pens use one of the other scouts epi-pens to save the first? Remember that this is an exercise involving a lot of screaming and yelling by panicked victims and others. Most are urging you to save their friend. The allergic but un-stung scout is reluctant to give up his pens. Do you try to talk him in to giving one or both of them up?

Key points:

1. It is illegal to administer a prescription drug to anyone other than the person for whom it was prescribed but...

2. Without the dose of epinephrine the first scout will surely die.

3. It often takes more than one dose to be effective and...

4. There are still bees in the area and it is possible that the scout who hasn't been stung will be and will need one or both of his epi-pens to survive.

In the exercise most groups decided to treat the first scout with the second scouts epi-pens. One even used force to take the pens from the second scout. As soon as the first scout was treated, the volunteer playing the second scout would scream that he had been stung and start showing signs of anaphylactic shock. The exercise usually ended with two dead scouts.

For Star Trek fans think Kobayashi Maru scenario. A very sobering exercise.

I suspect there would be considerable impact in our council were the Marriott family and corporation are huge financial supporters. Our service center and one of our summer camps both bear the Marriott name. That said, I think the loss would be greater to the LDS community--it would be hard for them to replace the access to camps and resources and they could never have another Eagle Scout--so I hope they would stay.

I doubt that the Catholic churches would act with the same solidarity that some expect from the LDS church. Some would, like he church that threw out the Girl Scouts on a specious connection to Planned Parenthood, but most would continue to charter troops.

The day is coming. I guess we'll see when it gets here.

Peregrinator:

I am old enough to remember when scout camps in our council (National Capital Area) were segregated. I have to assume that units were segregated as well since an integrated unit would not have been able to go to camp. The old camps were closed and consolidated at Goshen Scout Reservation in the mid 1960s.

The BSA tolerated integration, at least in the South.