GernBlansten

Could a CO, within the guidelines of the BSA charter and free association, discriminate by race? I dug up this article from 1974, could this still happen today?

In 1974 the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America did not discriminate because of religion or race, but Mormon-sponsored troops did have a policy of discrimination. On July 18, 1974, the Salt Lake Tribune reported: "A 12-year-old boy scout has been denied a senior patrol leadership in his troop because he is black", Don L. Cope, black ombudsman for the state, said Wednesday. Mormon 'troop policy is that in order for a scout to become a patrol leader, he must be a deacon's quorum president in the LDS Church. Since the boy cannot hold the priesthood, he cannot become a patrol leader.' " Shortly before Boy Scout officials were to appear in Federal Court Friday morning on charges of discrimination, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a policy change which will allow black youths to be senior patrol leaders, a position formerly reserved for white LDS youths in troops sponsored by the church. An LDS Church spokesman said Friday under the "guidelines set forth in the statement, a young man other than president of the deacons quorum could (now) become the senior patrol leader if he is better qualified". - (Salt Lake Tribune, August 3, 1974).

I disagree Linda.

I think the way COs charter the program from BSA, they have the right to chuck the Wiccans. I think it is a major flaw in the agreement between BSA and the COs.

Boy do I know what you are going through. We have a similar scout who crossed over this spring. I'm afraid he won't make it to summer camp because he is so fragile and scared. I keep seeing the deer in the headlights every meeting.

Could you work with the SM to make this scout a Den Chief for the den and just become less inactive in the scout troop (Not work on advancement the first year). Then when the den crosses over next year, he becomes more active with the troop with his bonded buddies from the den?

I understand the difference in this case where the TC acted and the CO corrected. However, if the CO had not been UMC and supported the TC, it could have been much different. Say the CO were LDS or Southern Baptist. Would the BSA come to the rescue of a couple of Wiccans? BSA allows the CO do just this type of discrimination (even though they meet BSA membership requirements) and I don't think that is right.

The potential of this type of situation becoming a real problem in the future exists.

Consider this hypothetical situation...a fundamentalist CO hardens their position on membership and expels all members who are not Christians. Those members appeal to the BSA and are told tuff luck, its the COs right. They then sue the CO and BSA for equal access since they meet BSA requirements.

The promise of a secular CO would be that they really would have no grounds to expel membership due to the wrong religion and follow the BSA program as national has laid it out. Our CO is UMC and I agree they are very liberal with allowing membership from all faiths. In fact, very few of our members belong to the congregation and it is NOT a youth group for their church. The diversity of our faiths I feel makes us stronger and more interesting.

However, its very disturbing that a CO could expel due to belonging to the wrong church or worshiping the wrong God(s). Seems to me that BSA is doing a disservice to the membership by not requiring COs respect all religions equally.

My concern, and I've expressed it in other threads is that BSA sets a basic set of ground rules regarding membership, but COs can augment those rules with their own (example, LDS units). In this case, it would have been within BSA guidelines to allow this expulsion, since the CO defines the membership. I think the COs have too much leeway in defining their program and membership. It should be set at national and lived up to by every CO that charters with them. No deviation.

I'm very concerned. I am not a wiccan. Nor am I a Christian. I believe in a higher being, one that created our universe, but I don't believe that being has any hand in my day to day life nor do I believe in the power of prayer. Should I and my son be expelled from BSA?

Until this thread, I thought we met the religious requirements, but I have doubts now. My troop is also chartered by a UMC church. They have never asked my church or religion. Yet.

Sounds like BSA needs some Six Sigma Green Belts.

I doubt we will really know what this is really about. Problem is, without more information, we will all just speculate and come up with reasons that might justify such actions that none of these parties really did.

From the presented facts, a couple of boy scouts do something that could be construed as hazing (with a small stick), council expels two adult leaders for it, CO loses charter because these two guys show up at a COH. If this truly the case, we should all be shaking in our boots that our charters could be pulled for similar infractions.

Reality check. If the boys were hazing with a small stick, an investigation may be warranted, all those responsible reprimanded. Case closed. Chucking the leaders? No way. CO losing its charter because they showed up at a ceremony? No way.

I just can't see why the council would take such draconian measures from a single incident. Something smells very fishy in Denmark.

You silly willies. Its a trick question.

There should never be any buildings at scout camp. We are camping!

Never been to Sturgis, but I imagine after the biker fests, they must be more than capable of handling 40,000 scout(er)s. Plus, doesn't Deadwood have gambling now?

I didn't notice the church was ELCA. If it was Missouri Synod, well, I just don't want to think about that! ;-)

The issue is really about safety vs. ethics. G2SS should only cover safety issues, leave the ethics to other documents.

I think we are in pretty good agreement that laser tag and even paintball has a pretty good safety record and really doesn't belong in G2SS.

If BSA has a problem (ethically) with pointing devices that resemble firearms at each other, or have a problem with the activity of simulated combat, then write a policy specifically against it but leave it out of G2SS.

If BSA wants to use G2SS as the bible for acceptable outtings, then rename it Guide to Safe and Ethical Scouting.

Banned from scouting for the incident? Wow. There is more to this than is reported. Were the adults the ones delivering the wacks with the stick? I can understand a stern warning and re-training of those leaders, but banning them from all activities? I would guess those leaders didn't respond well to the council's criticism and then the troop/CO continued to ignore the ban. Council used the ECOH as the documented reason. That's why it probably took two years, the council had had enough. But that is pure speculation on my part.

Yes, there must be more to the story. Perhaps caning the leaders would have been more appropriate. Or a slap across the knuckles with a wooden ruler.

Spare the rod, spoil the scout?

I proposed a squirt gun war for a mid summer meeting break and got shot down quickly by the committee. Big BSA NO-NO according to them. Not saying they really know though.

So we did a water ballon toss.

Our February campout (Klondoree) got down to 8 below zero F. We didn't recommend any of our recently crossed over scouts to camp with us, but join us during the day of activities with the other Weblose.

Our first campout with the new scouts is this weekend in May, but the Colorado mountains can be interesting in the spring. Looks like snow Friday night, 60s for Saturday and 70s for Sunday.

Looking at our herd of new scouts, I'd say 50% are more than ready for the campout, 30% will learn a great deal and 20% will be down right miserable and homesick. I don't expect many of the 20% to stick with scouting through the summer.

Very interesting discussion. Scoutldr, I must apologise if I offended you with my comment on obesity, but I was trying to make a point that discrimination of fat people is not ok in BSA but gay people it is. Emphasis is on some of the oath, and not on another part. Its that hypocrisy that I disagree with.

I have read and meet the Declaration of Religious Principle.

Now to something going on with my troop. Recently a scouter who I really like, respect and enjoy his company, made the comment to the committee that he wanted to take the troop in a more Christian path. He proposed ending each meeting with readings from the New Testament and focusing our reverence on Jesus. He asked the committee if anyone in the troop was not a Christian and might be offended with such a program. It became very uncomfortable for us non-Christians to speak up. Not that we are non-Christians or that we would be offended, but called out as "The Others". We,(at least me and two other leaders who secretly know each others religious preferences) just exchanged glances. A bit of a pregnant pause. Luckily, our SM voiced up and said he had no problem with the readings at the end of the meeting as long as they were brief and didn't take his SM minute. The committee agreed. I don't have a problem with the readings myself, but I do fear that our troop may become a religious youth group for our Christian scouters.

I don't wear my religion on my shirt sleeve like some of my fellow scouters. It is personal to me and not the concern or business of anyone else.

These types of thread typically devolve into a debate of the 3 Gs, but I will try to stay on topic.

Some scouters approach scouting as a religion and expect others to follow their "all or nothing" mantra. Others are more pragmatic in their approach, extenuating the positive, marginalizing the negative.

I too am conflicted. I see scouting as being the best youth organization for instilling leadership and self reliance available. But it isn't the organization I thought it was when I was a youth. I do not agree with the gays stance since I will not discriminate against gays in my personal life. I do not agree with the atheist stance since I will not discriminate against atheists in my personal life. I do not agree with the hypocrisy on demanding compliance to parts of the oath (morally straight) but not showing the same emphasis on (physically strong). Gay scouts(ers) = bad, fat scouts(ers) = OK.

I'm one of those people who think obesity is choice, not a disease.

I do not agree with the policy that allows CO's to tweak the program to their vision (LDS units).

But given everything I think is wrong about BSA, much, much more is positive. I put all my effort into delivering those positive aspects, and besides this forum, keep my opinions with the program private.

Do I think BSA should change their policies? Of course I do. Do I expect it? no. Should I leave? Don't count on it.

That's funny Moxieman. Our OA chapter moved their meeting from the same week as roundtable so our one hour can be spread amounst most of the month. Good Idea though on doing them both the same night at the same place.

33 miles, one way.

Held second week of the month.

Monday, Troop Committee - 22 miles one way

Tuesday, Troop meeting - 22 miles one way

Wed, OA Chapter meeting - 33 miles one way

Thursday, Roundtable - 33 miles one way

Perhaps the current NA is out of date. It certainly is difficult to sing, most people don't know the 2nd and 3rd verses, its genesis is a German drinking song. Too many flaws.

I propose an update. Perhaps "Born In the USA" by Springsteen.

This thread reminds me of a scene from Life of Brian

Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah".

[Everyone gasps]

Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!

Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!

Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?

Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!

Jewish Official: Was it you?

Stoner: Yes.

Jewish Official: Right...

Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. "

[Crowd throws rocks at the stoner]

Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. "

[Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death]

I think its time to retaliate and cross discriminate. I say we throw all the librarians out the troop. They never seemed to get the troop merit badge booklet collection in alphabetical order anyways.