eisely

News Release:

PETA ASKS BOY SCOUTS TO "DE-MERIT" BADGES PROMOTING CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

For Immediate Release:

March 15, 2001

Contact:

Dawn Carr - 757-622-7382

Irving, Texas - In a letter faxed today to Boy Scouts President Milton H. Ward, PETA asks that the Boy Scouts of America live up to its wholesome image by retiring merit badges that encourage young people to maim and kill animals. PETA charges that by offering "Fishing" and "Fish and Wildlife Management" merit badges, the Scouts teach boys that hooking, suffocating, and killing fish is acceptable.

PETA asserts that fishing is inconsistent with the Boy Scout law, which states, "A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason."

Fish have a neurochemical system like humans, the brain capacity to experience fear and pain, and sensitive nerve endings in their lips and mouths. They begin to die slowly of suffocation the moment they are pulled out of the water. And angling doesnt hurt just fish. Countless birds, turtles, and other animals suffer debilitating injuries after swallowing fish hooks or becoming entangled in fishing line.

Desensitizing children to the suffering of others is a dangerous lesson. According to FBI profilers, the American Psychiatric Association, law enforcement officials, and child advocacy organizations, cruelty to animals is a warning sign commonly seen in people who eventually direct violence toward humans.

"In an era of school shootings and hate crimes, it is folly to encourage young boys to harm innocent animals," says PETAs Dawn Carr. "The Boy Scouts are supposed to be compassionate role models, not bloodthirsty fish killers."

Re Philistinism

I was just kidding JMCQuillan.

Re: Venturing vs Ordinary Troops

I don't have any strong feelings about coed venture crews one way or the other. There is no reason it cannot be made to work and be made fair for all. I wouldn't have a problem with girls being eligible for the full panopoly of scouting awards and ranks. I do agree that conventional troops should be all male.

One of the difficulties that I have had with scouting for some time is the way the entire program has been pushed down into ever younger ages. It shows up most strongly in conventional troops where you have boys aged 11 to 18 trying to have a common program. The younger pre adolescent and adolescent boys would, in my humble serf opinion, not deal well with girls in the program. It is hard enough at times keeping everybody focused and going in the same direction without introducing another complication. Just as girls benefit from some all girl activities, boys likewise benefit from having some things just boys. Having said all that, it really goes against the ideals of scouting and fundamental fairness to offer girls just a piece of the program at the venture level.

I may be just a serf, but I object to being called a Phillistine!!

I too speak from relative ignorance as regards the venturing program. However, if girls are going to be admitted to the program, they ought to be fully admitted to the program.

A similar contradiction exists as regards Order of the Arrow eligibility. We now have female adult volunteers regularly elected to the OA. However, for a youth member of scouting to be elected to OA, they must have earned the rank of First Class. Since the girls cannot do rank advancement at all, they might meet all the other requirements, in fact be better scouts and more deserving, but they are not eligible because of what at that point seems to be a technicality. Where is the justice in that?

Scouting's value

GORDON N. TAYLOR

Pompano Beach

Some years ago, I was seated next to a retired prison warden at a civic dinner in Detroit, Mich. During the course of our conversation, he made a remark that has had a lasting impression on me: "In all my years of penology, I've only known of three who were Boy Scouts."

Copyright 2001, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Maybe you need a new advancement chair.

One thing that I always did with my own sons was to write in the margins of their handbooks those activities they in which they had participated, both outings and service projects.

Do I understand from your post that your advancement chair is doing all sign offs? Or is this person handling sign offs for a specific requirement where she was handling a specific activity? I would find it odd that any advancement chair would handle all sign offs.

We do use a dedicated laptop for record keeping and our advancement chair is generally available at all troop meetings. We too are a fairly large troop with about 50 registered youth. This has never come up for us. Boys get their books signed off by either youth leaders who might have taught a requirement or by the cognizant adults. The boy then puts his book in front of the advancement chair who records the progress on the laptop. I believe that we are using the "Troopmaster" software.

Another thing our advancement chair has done is provide a printout annually by mail to the parents. This provides another opportunity to reconcile and update the records.

I would expect both the BSA and the GSA would be more than happy to have their symbols and words used in the manner described. Copyrights held by non profit organizations are viewed differently by those owners than copy righted information and characters created to earn a profit. I would still make appropriate inquiries.

Several years ago we participated in camporees in Southern California where the youth members submitted ideas for camporee patches. One year the winning design came out with three well known cartoon characters in it. I doubt that the owners of those copyrights were ever aware of the infringement, but I cringed when I saw it.

Here's another angle. Don't let your scouts incorporate any copyrighted characters (e.g. Mickey Mouse) into the design without consent of the owner of the copyright. There was a pre school in Florida a few years ago that had to wipe out an unauthorized mural of Disney characters in particular. Hannah Barbera came to the rescue in that case and even provided the paint for the new mural.

Going to the publication is useful, but I've got some time to kill so here goes.

First the structure. Councils are actually legal entities incorporated under state law, and simultaneoulsy receiving a charter from BSA National to operate a scout program, as defined by National. Another set of laws affecting council operations is the Internal Revenue Code, whereby the council qualifies to accept tax deductible donations. Councils are defined geographically, and usually follow local political boundaries to some extent. I have done very little work at the council level, so I may be in error here.

Councils are divided in districts. Districts have no separate legal existence and are set up to facilitate the delivery of services and programs to scout units (troops, packs, etc).

Concerning the positions you mentioned, only "executives" are paid. Councils are run by self perpetuating boards of directors, consistent with their legal status and charter from National. Council presidents are elected by the boards and presumably are the senior volunteers at the council level.

At the district level, the senior volunteer is the district chair who works through a committee. The composition of the committee will vary. Districts maintain a volunteer commissioner staff. Commissioners are volunteers who work with multiple units, advising and helping without running anything.

The major things the council does include operating major summer camp programs, volunteer training at the council level, and chartering units. Much of the time of the executives is spent dealing with charter partners (churches, clubs, etc.) that receive a grant of authority from the council to operate a unit. This charter is renewed annually in a process called "rechartering." As a legal entity the council can own or rent real estate, run a payroll, operate a tradiing post, and that sort of thing.

The district also runs training programs. If you are a new scouter, this is where you will most likely receive your initial training. The district also runs a monthly leaders roundtable, which provides some formal training and is a vehicle for discussing and implementing district programs. The district also typically runs district level camporees annually for scout units, and often similar events for cub scouts. Districts may operate day camps in the summer for cub scouts.

Hope this helps.

Though I have scsrcely read even a small fraction of all the scout documents ever published, I am not aware of any written guidelines on this subject and doubt that there are any. Given the difficulty in getting any kind of meeting space in many communities, I have no problem with a committee meeting space such as you describe. It becomes a somewhat different matter when boys show up in uniform to present plans for Eagle projects and things like that. Again, the issue is probably not one of sheltering the boys. Boys doing Eagle projects are likely old enough to understand what a bar is all about. The issue revolves around the consistency of the scout message with boys in uniform going into a side door for a meeting. Given the difficulties with getting space, I for one would probably just say use the side door.

Scout policy does not say that alcoholic drink per se is wrong, but that drinking at a scout event is prohibited. I can see how, within a unit affiliated with a church that is more hostile to alcohol, policies would be stricter. If such a sponsor, and the parents and boys affiliated with the unit, wanted to avoid meeting spaces such as you described, then that is their right to do so.

A private bar such as an American Legion Post or Elks Lodge is a lot different than an ordinary bar open to the public. When I lived in Southern California I used to give blood regularly when the Red Cross ran their drive in the bar of an American Legion Post just a few blocks off the freeway in the San Fernando Valley. It was the most accessible collection point for me. So such a bar may be more than just a bar.

Your point is well taken about the unwillingness of National to appear on camera. There is a strong presumption of bias by the media against the scouts on this issue. The most effective way to respond to Sixty Minutes is to have your own video crew present for the interview. I still would like to see the original if anybody has any suggestions.

I understand that Sixty Minutes did a number on the boy scouts last Sunday. Anybody know where I can get a free transcript on line?

We too ended our trip a day early, just a few miles from our destination. We were rescued not by a rancher, but by a National Park Service Ranger with a bigger boat. Conceivably we could have continued, but we had a lot of wet gear facing a chilly night, with no way to dry it out. If scouting is a "game with a purpose," another important example we set is making sound decisions about yielding to Mother Nature. To quote another famous American, Kenny Rogers, "You have to know when to hold'em..know when to fold'em..."

Several years ago the commercial operators on America's rivers created what they called the "smart duck award," as distinct from the "dead duck award." The idea was to promote awareness of industrial safety and encourage workers to wear a PFD when working on piers, barges, etc. The award was given to workers who one way or another went into the water wearing a PFD and lived to tell about it. They probably are still making these awards.

Well, a scout and I just qualified for this award.

We were on another spring break canoe outing on the Colorado River below Hoover Dam in very windy conditions Tusday at noon. The water temperature was 54 degrees. Cutting to the chase, our canoe capsized. We both were pitched into the water and we were both wearing PFDs. Under the wave conditions we were in it took at least 15 minutes before we were pulled into a fisherman's boat. The shores were cliffs and we were at least a quarter of a mile from any place we could have conceivably swam to and pulled ourselves out, even if we could have swam in those conditions. We both were in the early stages of hypothermia by the time we were in the boat. So I think we earned the award.

The point of this tale is compliance with scout Health and Safety Policies. Personally I always try to set the example and am mindful of personal liability. Sometimes the requirements are onerous but they exist for a reason. So whether it is a "smart duck" or a "smart climber" or a "smart hiker" award you may someday earn, be safe and be alive.

Agreed.

A big part of the cost of any high adventure experience is the cost of getting there. As I reflect on my total scouting experience, the cost can vary a great deal depending on where you live. I grew up in the midwest, and there were far fewer accessible opportunities for high adventure there, compared to those available close to large tracts of public lands. Great Smokies would be one of those tracts. Here in California we can backpack in the Sierras at much less cost than going to Philmont. Nevertheless many units, including ours, return to Philmont frequently. In defense of Philmont, there is much more there than just the backpacking. There is a lot of support in the backcountry in case of trouble and a lot of activities. Considering what you get for the cost, it is still a good deal, providing getting there is not prohibitively expensive. 30,000 scouts and scouters per year can't be totally wrong.

Might as well keep this string going a little longer.

Responding to one of Mike Long's points:

As I think about it, I would tend to agree with Mike's recommendation to avoid internal frames for younger scouts. If one of the real advantages of internal frame packs is safety and balance in rugged going, who in their right mind is going to take new scouts into such environments early in their scouting careers?

Concerning training, I recently went through a weekend of training offered by our council called "Backpack Awareness Training." Unfortunately I had the flu the weekend of the outdoor portion. This is probably the best training session I ever experienced as an adult scouter. The syllabus was developed and published under the auspices of the Western Region of the BSA, so I don't know if it is truly available in other parts of the country. There were no video tapes. Our council is now opening this to youth fifteen years or older, in the hope that they will become more effective trainers in their units.

One final item. I was browsing the official BSA 2001 catalogue for a different reason last night, and was pleased to notice that one can now order smaller size waistbands for backpacks through that catalogue.

It appears that some people in Southern Florida agree with the Boy Scouts on the gay issue and are willing to vote with their dollars.

United Way backers increase donations to Boy Scouts

By PATTY PENSA

Staff Writer

Posted March 23 2001

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Preliminary figures released Thursday show the Boy Scouts pulled in about $40,000 more in designated donations than last year, following recent controversies about the decision of the United Way of Palm Beach County to withhold money from agencies that discriminate against gays.

United Way officials have yet to calculate how many donors contributed to that increase and they have not clearly identified the significance of their September decision to cut off contributions to the Gulf Stream Council of the Boy Scouts. The organization's board of directors decided to stop contributing to the Boy Scouts by 2003 if the group does not alter its policy prohibiting openly gay members.

"There are people who still want to support the Scouts, and there are people who said, `I like your decision,'" said United Way President Scott Badesch.

Some donors funneled their money to member agencies besides the Scouts, but United Way officials do not have an official tally on that amount. Donors may choose to contribute to a specific agency or agencies instead of giving money to the general fund.

However, donors may not restrict their money from a particular agency. They can withhold their donation from a category group, such as "Children and Youth." All agencies within that group lose out on that money.

The United Way collected about $61,500 for the Gulf Stream Council of the Boy Scouts in its 2000-2001 campaign. The previous year, it received just less than $20,000.

Officials announced these figures before a Thursday evening celebration for the end of its campaign, which raised about $52,000 more than its $13 million goal.

United Way officials said they decided on their goal before discussions began on adding "sexual orientation" to the organization's nondiscrimination clause. Badesch said reaching that goal in the midst of its controversial decision shows donors have not abandoned the United Way.

Instead, Badesch said, the decision prompted more people to join the campaign. But the increase in the number of donors won't be available until June.

Badesch and Chuck Edgar, president of the Gulf Stream Council of the Boy Scouts, both said they expected the amount designated for the Scouts would actually increase by the time final numbers roll in -- around $90,000.

Since September, phone calls, letters and e-mails have trickled into the United Way and Boy Scouts offices in protest and support of the United Way's decision.

"We had people calling saying they won't ever give to the United Way again," Badesch said. "We said to them, `Give to the Scouts.'"

The United Way's board of directors decided against immediately cutting off support to the Boy Scouts because it did not want to be unfair to donors who already had planned on contributing to the 2000-2001 campaign.

Annually the United Way contributes about $118,000 to the Boy Scouts, which is about 6 percent of its budget. That amount is expected to increase slightly next year.

"It shows a great deal of community support for the Boy Scouts," Edgar said.

Patty Pensa can be reached at ppensa@sun-sentinel.com or 561-243-6609.

Copyright 2001, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

In prior posts I put up articles about the situation in Broward County where the local school district was seeking to disallow usage of school facilities by the scouts because of the policy on homosexuality. The scouts won an important victory in court Wednesday. Concerned scouters should be aware of this case in the event the issue surfaces in your area. Unfortunately the local district now plans to charge for the use of the facilities in that jurisdiction, and they may be able to do that. Nevertheless the precedent was established in Federal District Court and is an important one.

Schools can't bar Scouts over gays

By BILL HIRSCHMAN

and TAMIKA SIMMONS Education Writers

Posted March 22 2001

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The Broward School District can't stop the Boy Scouts from meeting in schools just because the district disagrees with the Scouts' ban on gay leaders and members, a federal judge ruled on Wednesday.

But the legal victory does not mean Scout troops will continue to meet in schools. That's because the district plans to charge a fee -- which the Scouts may be unwilling or unable to pay.

The ruling did not address the fee issue. Now, the Scouts meet for free in the schools, a deal that expires March 30.

Consequently, the Scouts will be required to reapply for leases at each school and pay for the meeting space, said Superintendent Frank Till.

And what if leases haven't been executed by March 30?

"They won't meet anymore," Till said. "It will be their call. ... We'll become landlords to them and we will charge them the same as any other organization that would rent from us -- no more, no less."

That may pose a serious financial problem for nearly 2,000 Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts who were meeting in the schools this winter, said Jeffrie Herrmann, Scout executive for the South Florida Council.

"Clearly we would be unprepared for that now," he said. Parents and Scout leaders will have to decide whether to pay.

In a battle that received national attention, U.S. District Judge Donald Middlebrooks upheld the Scouts' contention that the School Board was interfering with its First Amendment right to act on its beliefs.

"The constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression are not shed at the schoolhouse gate," wrote Middlebrooks.

The School Board countered that governments do not have to provide a forum for groups to spread a message that the school district finds abhorrent.

"This wasn't about [restricting] personal beliefs," Till said. "It was about a philosophy and policy of our School Board not to enter into partnership agreement with organizations that do not serve all of our students."

Herrmann said the victory "allows us to continue our mission of providing character-building experiences for young people, which has been our chartered purpose since our founding nine decades ago."

Herrmann, who testified that his council never had cause to eject a gay member in 20 years, reiterated Wednesday that the Boy Scouts make no effort to learn the sexual orientation of anybody.

"Scouting has never sought to impose its values on anyone. We welcome all who share them and we respect the right of others to walk a different path," he said.

The ruling hands the Scouts its second triumph in 10 months in its battle across the country to preserve a policy prohibiting homosexual leaders and members. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June that New Jersey's antidiscrimination law could not force the Scouts to keep an openly gay leader.

Middlebrooks' ruling granted the Scouts a preliminary injunction that was originally designed to keep the troops from being tossed out on March 30.

But the Scouts conceded in court March 13 that the School Board had the right in November to revoke their five-year deal giving free meeting space districtwide. The School Board contended that the Scouts' policy on gay members violated a non-discrimination clause in the contract.

Wednesday's ruling essentially bars the School Board from rejecting the Scouts' future application for leases.

"The Boy Scouts and the School Board have reached an impasse over a divisive question, whether homosexuality is a matter of private sexual orientation that should be protected against discrimination or whether it is immoral conduct inconsistent with the values of being morally straight and clean," a quote from the Boy Scout Promise, Middlebrooks wrote.

To answer that, Middlebrooks cited the case that the Scouts relied heavily on, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan vs. the East Baton Rouge Parish School Board.

In that 1978 case, the Supreme Court forced the district to allow the Klan to meet on its grounds. The court held that if a school district was going to allow groups to use its facilities, it could not discriminate based on opinions or beliefs held by the group.

The school district's attorney, Bruce Rogow, argued that the district should not allow a group to use the schools if it would exclude students who sat in the same classrooms earlier in the day.

Middlebrooks responded, "The emotional hurt that such an event could cause may be a reason for the Boy Scouts to reconsider their policy. But the hurt of exclusion may be a reason for parents and young men to disassociate themselves from participation in Scouting. It may also be a reason for the Boy Scouts to reconsider their policy. But the hurt of exclusion is part of the price paid for the freedom to associate."

Until December, 57 Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs -- about 1,985 boys -- met in Broward schools. Since then, nine troops have dissolved, and 22 have moved to churches and other buildings rather than be evicted March 30. The South Florida Council serves more than 7,000 other boys in troops meeting elsewhere.

A hearing for a permanent injunction is slated for later this year. "There may well be and could be an appeal," said School Board Chairman Paul Eichner, but it has to be a decision of the full board.

Middlebrooks' ruling did give the School Board one small victory: The district won't have to allow the Scouts to recruit one night a year in virtually every school in the district -- a decades-old tradition cemented in the old agreement.

"The board, in its disapproval of intolerance towards homosexuality, is free to fashion its own message," Middlebrooks wrote. "It need not assist the Boy Scouts in the solicitation of members ... or any other affirmative acts to enhance the involvement of this group in the schools."

Conservatives cheered the decision, especially the Pacific Legal Foundation, a Sacramento-based group that filed a friend-of-the-court brief.

"It's reassuring that the First Amendment applies to all persons in the United States including the Boy Scouts, which is not the way the Broward County School Board saw it," said Frank Shepherd, managing attorney of the group's Miami office.

"They were trying to besmirch the reputation of some 10,000 students. It took a United States district judge to teach these leaders of children this lesson of tolerance," Shepherd said.

Gay rights groups were disappointed.

Ray Rideout, co-chairman of the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, said he was sad that children are required to go to a school while groups that preach bigotry and discrimination are allowed to assemble there.

"It's sad when we make an example of our children," Rideout said. "When we practice discrimination, shame on us."

The complete ruling can be read on the Internet at www.netside.net/ usdcfls/publications/ casindex.html.

Staff Writers Toni Marshall and Madeline Baro Diaz contributed to this report.

Bill Hirschman can be reached at bhirschman@sun-sentinel.com or 954-356-4513.

Gorp has a website that is packed with information and links. Just search for Gorp.

Further update from Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel

Lawyers argue KKK ruling means Boy Scouts should be allowed to use schools

By BILL HIRSCHMAN Sun-Sentinel

Web-posted: 10:24 p.m. Mar. 13, 2001

The constitutional question of whether the Boy Scouts will be evicted from Broward County schools because the organization bans homosexuals hinges on the Scouts' similarities to the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

Attorneys for both sides as well as a federal judge spent much of an injunction hearing on Tuesday discussing whether the Scouts had the same legal standing as the KKK when the Klan won its legal battle to hold a rally in a Louisiana school.

"You don't lose your rights because you're more popular than the KKK," argued attorney George Davidson, representing the South Florida Council of the Boy Scouts of America.

U.S. District Judge Donald Middlebrooks postponed deciding whether to block the School Board after the 100-minute hearing in Miami. He said he would rule before the Scouts' contract with the board for meeting space expires on March 30.

But Middlebrooks did cast doubt on the school district's case when he said, "It looks like you're targeting speech in a public forum that is (supposed) to be open to all comers."

Citing a school pool used in a baptism, Middlebrooks said, "If you can have a christening and these other things, I don't see how you can keep them out."

At its heart, the battle is between the Scouts' right to act on their beliefs by limiting their membership and the School Board's right to pursue its mission to teach children that discrimination is wrong, attorneys argued.

"What is happening here is that 70 schools are being used to send the wrong message several times a week," said Bruce Rogow, an attorney for the school district.

The Scouts contend that thinking constitutes "viewpoint discrimination," evicting the Scouts because of their national policy banning gay members and leaders -- a concept upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court last summer.

The School Board agrees the policy is the problem. Board members voted Nov. 14 to evict 57 troops and packs because the Scouts agreed not to discriminate in their contract for meeting space.

The Scouts sued Dec. 4, claiming the district is violating the First and Fourteenth amendments by denying the organization equal access to public resources and the right to express itself freely.

The collision of those rights earned national attention including jokes on talk shows, a friend of the court brief from a conservative California activist group, and hundreds of letters and e-mails to board members from around the country.

The freedom-of-speech issue led Davidson to lean heavily on the 1978 case of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan vs. the East Baton Rouge Parish Schools, in which the Supreme Court forced the district to allow the Klan to meet on its grounds. The court ruled that if a school district was going to allow groups to use its resources, the district could not discriminate based on opinions or beliefs held by the group.

But Rogow tried to distance the Scouts from the Klan. He said the Klan's meeting was a one-time rally, not like Broward's ongoing relationship, which philosophically endorses the Scouts by letting them use scores of schools hundreds of times each year.

Rogow also argued that the Klan differed from the Scouts because the very people who would be banned by the Scouts would be children who used the schools during the day.

The other key argument centered on whether the Scouts were being singled out, because the district had not tried to evict other groups using school buildings.

Davidson argued that other groups that use the schools discriminate by targeting particular members. He cited the Girl Scouts, the Urban League and a Seventh-Day Adventist church that conducted a 21-day revival.

"The word discrimination has no meaning for (school officials), " Davidson said. "Even Inspector Clouseau could have found dozens of cases" of discrimination.

But Rogow countered with a federal law that says volunteer youth organizations can legally limit membership by age and gender, specifically the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. His briefs also noted that the religious groups welcome visitors as possible converts, and the Urban League accepts members of any race.

The case took a last-minute left turn in court when both sides abandoned a huge chunk of the arguments they had based their case on.

The school district had contended that the Scouts waived their rights when they freely signed the promise not to discriminate. Then they broke the contract, giving them no legal grounds at all to sue.

Davidson said no one expected the Scouts to live up to the nondiscrimination clause because everyone knew it conflicted with the Scouts' policy and because it had never been enforced against anyone else.

Both sides were poised to fight the issue Tuesday when the Scouts suddenly announced that they were simply assuming the contract was now void.

The issue for the court now, Davidson argued, was whether the district has the right in the future to bar the Scouts from using the schools.

Until December, 57 Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs -- about 1,985 boys -- met in schools. Since then, nine troops have dissolved, and 22 have moved rather than be evicted.

Although the South Florida Council serves at least another 7,000 boys in troops meeting elsewhere, the freedom of expression issue affects every Scout in the country, said Scout Executive Jeffrie Herrmann.

"This case has arisen solely because the superintendent and School Board disagree with the message and mission of the Boy Scouts," he said.

But the school district contends in its brief that its nondiscrimination policy is "designed to eliminate hate and discord in order to further the equal treatment of all citizens."

Bill Hirschman can be reached at 954-356-4513 or bhirschman @sun-sentinel.com

A further thought on the internal vs external debate: One advantage of the external frame pack is that you can adjust where the load is carried to match your hiking conditions. You can carry it low for rough terrain where balance and stability are desired, or you can carry it high on flatter terrain. Another consideration is comfort in hot weather. An internal frame pack rides closer to one's body. An external frame pack allows more air circulation between your back and your pack.

I have a feeling this could go on as long as the discussion on tents.

Allentown seems a bit out of the way for me. I will take chanoneescouter up on his (her?) offer.

Thanx for the thoughtful, and thorough, response.