BD,

As you know I've not attended WB, not staffed NYLT, but did go through BA22 and staffed JLT. So my perspective comes from those experiences.

When my council did JLT back in the day after a several year hiatus, All the youth staffing had to go through NJLC at Philmont, and all the adult had to either have their beads, or working their tickets. I was the exception. I was a 20 year old and put in the SPL position. I did not have to attend the Philmont staffer's course, nor did I have to go through WB because I went through the last BA22 course the council did, and the training folks considered it equivalent to WB.

In regards to 18 year olds taking WB vs. NYLT, One of my JLT staffers was 17 when staffing JLT. He turned 18 just after the course and attended WB about 2 or 3 months after staffing JLT. He told me WB was a waste of his time since everything covered at WB was covered at JLT.

From these two experiences, I say let the GASers go to WB21C


In regards to Venturers and camping, depending upon your aduolt POR, you do not have to have any outdoor training to attend WB21C. So why should it matter for Venturers attending NYLT if the two courses are so identical that staffers can earn their 3rd and 4th beads doing NYLT?

Now this is me going off on a tangent. I find it frustrating that adult NYLT staffers can earn their 3rd and 4th WB bead who meet certain requirements, but their is no recognition for the youth staffers or those adults who have not gone through WB21C yet. If the courses are so similar, and by all accounts I've been told the only thing that is different is the ages and the ticket, Why not award beads for NYLT as well?

I really think a different, NATIONAL (I've seen local ones) staff recognition be used instead of WB beads unless EVERYONE will be able to earn them.

Some older venturing youth were in my WB class. Did just fine. No idea how they are doing with their tickets.

No clue about NYLT. I know younger boys in our crew are no less goofy around the older girls. If that's your fear, I haven't experienced any problems with it one way or the other.

(Of course boys in the crew have signed on to the co-ed thing, so that may make a difference.)

My suggestion, if you do have to deal with it, is ask the older girls what the ground-rules should be.

I have no concern with how the girls will feel. They'll be fine. My issue is taking a program that has worked for decades, and is considered to be the top leadership training a council can offer its troops' youth leadership ... now sprinkle in some made-up terminalogy and a few girls, and we'll just see what happens. Good idea? Bad idea?
Qwazse and Eagle92 and I are all speculating. Hasn't somebody out there done this? I'd like to hear some real stories ... successes and failures. What works? What can make it better, or is it already the greatest idea to come along since the 70s? What will you change for next year?
BDPT00

Yep, like BDP said, I'm just speculating. From what I've read on the forums, instructors have stuck to their old formats, and have not had to run the course with a new demographic (older, co-ed youth). I don't see a high demand for NYLT among the Venturers I know (who, for what it's worth, have a wide array of cooking skills).

I don't suspect any new anecdotes to be available until a summer or two. But, I do suspect BP's hypothetical concern about boys being more stuck in their shell are overblown.

My hypothetical concerns are not overblown at all. After trying several differnt models we now just split the patrols by age. Year after year, the youngest patrols win competitions because they work much better as a patrol. Many of the older kids take a whole week to finally fully participate ... they spend too much time being cool and posturing. They don't care, or don't really want to be there, and they want to make sure everfody knows it. If being cool is part of they're tryin got accomplish, they really don't have anyone to impress, so they finally come out of it. Throw in a few girls, and I don't think the posturing would ever stop.
As some would say, YMMV.
BDPT00

"Someone had mentioned in another thread something about 18-21 year olds taking NYLT. I don't think that should happen. They should go to Wood Badge instead. However, that's a totally different subject ... should they take Wood Badge as a youth participant? I don't like it. As a dual registered adult? OK. Anybody have experience with that? "

I think I would leave it up to each older Venturer to decide if they want to do NYLT or WB. And I would recommend that if they do decide to take NYLT that they should wait a few years before taking WB, due to the similarity.

What difference would it make if they went as a "youth participant" or a "dual registered adult"?? My former Council venturing President went thru WB as a Cub Scout leader. At the time they hadn't yet opened up WB to older Venturing youth. As she was a little more mature then your average 18-21 year old, I figured she'd do fine.

"A question regarding NYLT: Are we supposed to assume Venturers know how to camp and cook? When First Class Scouts participate, we know the answer to that. How about Venturers?"

And that is a good question.

I think a problem is that people assume that all Venturing Crews are outdoor crews: that they camp and cook outdoors and the like. Many are. Many are not. What do you do with Venturers who come from non-camping crews or no prior camping experience (from art/hobby crews, youth ministries crews, sports crews, etc)??? Same could be said for Cub Scout leaders with no camping experience going to WB, but atleast there most people recommend such people go to IOLS first to get some experience.

BD,

I actually had the opposite experinces. My patrol in BA22 was the youngest patrol with 13 and 14yos, and one 12.5yo who caused a lot of problems. We were the worst patrol and never did gell together. I hate to say it, but 2 years after BA22, one of the guys in my patrol attended my HS, and we didn't acknowledge one another. yes it was that bad.

And when I staffed JLT, again the youngest patrol had the most challenges and problems. In fact one of their members played a joke that ended up with 3/4s of the patrol leaving the course early b/c of illness.