Committee Chair

[click23 66]

Doc, I am almost with you on this one. The only reference of the committee being involved that I have found is in the Selecting Quality Leaders pamphlet, but it is talking about a steering committee, which could be the units committee functioning as that committee. So if the units committee is functioning as the steering committee, they do have say in who is selected, but the only official(on the application) approval is the committee chair.

[Docrwm 10]

There are recommendations for how to distribute the load, yes. However, when one distributes the work that does not mean that the originally responsible party has delegated, or has the authority to delegate, the authority granted to them by the higher agency. What that means is that it may be well and good to have an adult volunteer selection committee in order to lighten the CC's load (Great - all for that), but it is a committee that has several people who can veto ANY action it recommends - the CC, the IH, and the SE.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

[Bob White 20]

"they have a say" is kind of an ambiguous term. If you mean that the steering committee has input, then yes you are correct. If however you mean that they have any degree of authority, then no that would be incorrect. Their role would be purely advisory.

 

The SE would have no authority to veto any action by a unit committee unless it was in violation of a BSA policy or regulation.

 

In actuality if the committee functions as designed and taught by the BSA there is little opportunity for a committee "action". The role of the committee is simply to carry out the tasks assigned to them by the Committee Chair who would be acting in support of the needs of the Scoutmaster and the charter organization.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah 205]

Scoutmaster's Handbook, p. 157

"The committee may be seen as the "board of directors" of a troop... The responsibilities of the troop committee include the following:

 

*Select quality leaders for the troop."

 

"The most important responsibility of a troop committee is recruiting qualified adult leaders for the troop. This is an extremely important task, because the committee must find individuals who are excellent role models as well as effective leaders of young people.

 

"When a leadership vacancy occurs, the troop committee identifies the names of several candidates based on their ability to do the job and then selects the individual who, in the committee's estimation, is most qualified. Once approved by the chartered organization representative, the next step is to recruit the candidate for the position.... The brochure "Selecting Quality Leaders" and a video by the same title define the process for a troop committee as they select leaders for their troop."

 

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Yah, I reckon click 23 has already described da process defined by da "Selecting Quality Leaders" brochure and trainin', eh? That as well says a committee, whether da full unit committee or a subcommittee or steering committee charged with da task, screens and selects leaders. Never da CC on his/her own.

 

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The Troop Committee Handbook, Chapter 5

"A key function of your troop committee is assisting in the selection of the best possible person to be your Scoutmaster."

 

"Meet with the other troop committee members to develop a prospect list."

 

"Rank the prospects. The committee should agree on and rank the top three prospects, in preferential order. Clear the list of prospects with the head of the chartered organization before making any contact."

 

"The same standards used to determine the best prospect for Scoutmaster should also be used to qualify assistant Scoutmasters."

 

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Even committee members and positions, not just direct contact leaders, are selected by the committee, not the chair. The Handbook continues:

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"As with securing a Scoutmaster, to get qualified adults involved with your troop, you [the committee] must first identify good people, select and rank top prospects, and then use all available influence to recruit them.... The Troop Resource Survey should be completed by every troop member's parents... The survey will inform the committee what professions, special interests, skills, and resources are available to your troop... Troop committee members should also use the troop resource survey with interested members of the chartered organization, personal friends, Eagle Scouts, and Scouting supporters in the community."

 

This again is borne out in da supplementary module on selecting leaders.

 

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Training the Chartered Organization Representative (BSA module)

 

"Each Scouting unit (pack, troop, team, or crew) is managed by a group of adults approved by the organization who serve as the unit committee. The committee's principal responsibility is to select the best-qualified leaders for the unit and see that they are supported in carrying out the unit program."

 

"We have referred several times to the responsibility of the unit committee and chartered organization in leadership selection.... The head of the organization appoints a selection committee. In the case of an existing unit, the unit committee is the logical starting place"

 

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Yah, da BSA materials are all perfectly consistent on this, eh? The Committee, not the CC by him/herself, selects unit leaders and committee members and recommends 'em for approval to the CO.

 

I reckon in cub packs in particular, things get pretty loose. The committee spends most of its time on who is bringin' refreshments next meeting, and so da CC takes on a lot of the more important stuff solo. Sometimes that works up into Boy Scoutin' too.

 

Usually those CC's have never served on a real board of directors or public board, so they don't quite get the concept that just because there's a line for your signature doesn't mean you can sign without da approval of the rest of the board. Da BSA materials assume the person readin' 'em knows what a board of directors is and how one operates, eh? Like a Board Chair, the Committee Chair is leader and representative of the committee, eh? He or she is not da pope of the committee, with independent personal authority.

 

At least, that's not what da BSA materials recommend. As always, the Chartered Organization has da real authority here, and may choose to set up da CC as the COR, or even have the Institution Head serve in all three roles and simply decide all leadership appointments him/herself. That can work OK, eh? Just not what BSA recommends for most units.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gold Winger 9]

Sorry Beav but I'm with BeeDubya on this one. Every bit of training that I've had in the past decade says that the CC is the final say and can only be over ridden by the COR or IH. You really do like to play fast and loose with the rules, don't you?

 

 

[evmori 11]

Yeah GW the CC might have the final say before the COR or IH, but Beavah is correct the entire committee's role in the selection of leaders. The CC has the approval authority on the unit committee.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[click23 66]

evmoris reply pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

 

How many times is this process actually used? I see that most units take parents of boys that show up and say "hey what can I do?", they are then handed an application and it is filled out and passed on. Or if you have a scoutmaster stepping down, your troop already might have an ASM ready to step up.

 

So what can happen if you do not follow the adult application,"The process set forth in the publication Selecting Quality Leaders, No. 18-981, must be completed for all positions of Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster..."? It says must not should.

 

The only time that I have seen it happen as described in Selecting Quality Leaders, was with one of my assigned units, I am a UC, and it did not go that well. The committee consisted of the committee chair, the COR, two or three other committee members, an ASM, and myself, invited by the IH and CC. Only one name came out of the meeting and he said no. It was decided that we wanted someone with some scouting background. Our town is pretty small, most people with scouting background were already with another troop, had moved away, or had simply retired from scouting.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

How often is the recommended selection process used?

Not often enough.

 

Which is why so many units have leaders who did not want to be leaders and doing things they have no aptitude or attitude to do successfully. It is why so many leaders leave within three years and why so many units do not have enough adult leadership to properly deliver the Scouting program.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, GoldWinger, as we've seen a lot on da forums, there's a lot of poor-quality trainers out there who don't follow da syllabus and ad-lib, eh? I'm sorry you've run into a few. So I gave yeh at least half a dozen quotes from different BSA materials which all say that it's the committee's responsibility to select leaders, not the CC's alone. And which indicate that it's the COR/IH's responsibility to approve da committee's choices, not the CC's. Next time you're at one of those trainings, yeh can point out those materials and correct da trainer politely so that others don't get the wrong notion.

 

All the BSA documents are in agreement and are clear. Leader selection is done by the committee, not da CC, and the CC does not have independent "veto" or approval authority. That privilege belongs only to the COR/IH. The BSA documents also reflect the real world of service on a board, where the chair is just first among equals, with responsibilities for coordinatin' the work of the group, but no independent authority. It takes your council executive board to sell a camp, but da council president signs the sales contract. If he signs a sales contract without approval of da rest of the board, he commits fraud.

 

As always, there's ways to "violate the rules" here and have the CC really be the sole ruling authority. That's a choice da CO and unit can make. When it comes to unit governance, da BSA's materials are strictly advisory. But it's a choice of the CO, not the CC. And it should be taken mindful of the BSA's recommended procedure and aware of the potential problems.

 

In my experience, CC's who try to become the sole ruling authority in their units without a CO culture that supports such an arrangement do a world of harm to Scouting. Been involved in da removal of several of 'em as a commish, but not before they had lost us some good kids and good adults.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah 205]

Oops... Yah, I doubled with BobWhite.

 

I agree with BobWhite completely. Da process is not used often enough. Like the materials say, appointin' people to key positions, especially kid-contact positions, is the single most important thing a unit does. It's a responsibility da committee and COR should take deadly seriously.

 

Serious responsibilities require time and thought and data from a bunch of sources and input, eh? Appointin' a "warm body" who was da only guy willing and available can land yeh in a world of hurt. Predators are willing and available, eh? So are folks who are a bit immature, or who are out of jobs (perhaps for a reason). We're talkin' about trusting someone with children in a remote environment, pretty far from supervision of any kind, eh?

 

If you're worried about whether da water is 11 feet deep or 13 feet deep in your swim area, but yeh didn't run da full process for selecting a unit leader properly than you are an irresponsible fool. Strainin' at gnats and swallowin' camels.

 

When da CC, COR, or committee person calls references (everyone does call references, right?), I think it's good practice to ask da references for other people not listed as references to call. People list their best buddies as references, eh? Only after yeh dig a little further do yeh get to folks who might be honest about a concern.

 

I think it's also a good thought to evaluate a person's workin' with kids and outdoor skills directly in some way. Workin' with kids IMO can't be taught, adults either have a knack for it or they don't. Outdoor skills are important because far more than tryin' to memorize 75 pages of G2SS, an adult's outdoor skills and experience are goin' to determine how safe da unit is. A committee should work "live evaluation" of these things into its process, and then have a training package ready for da person when they approach him/her about the position.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger 9]

Whatever Beaver. The committee may recommend all they want but if the CC won't sign, that person doesn't get in. Pretty simple, no?

 

Gotta get that ignore button working properly, it hurts my brain too much to read what you write. Maybe if you took a course on English as a First Language.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I suppose it's true, eh? A CC, out of ignorance or spite may not follow da rules.

 

If da CC doesn't sign because he doesn't understand his role, someone else signs for the committee and da COR approves. Person is appointed.

 

Then it's the job of the COR to get da CC proper trainin' or readjust his attitude, or ask the committee for a recommendation for a new CC.

 

The committee of course can just proceed by sending the COR two applications at the same time - one for the original person whom they selected, and one for the new CC they had to select to replace da CC who thought he was King. COR signs and submits both, problem solved.

 

An active unit commish might get involved in either situation, too, eh? Givin' the CC some advice on the side on his proper role and tryin' to defuse things. I'm fairly hard-nosed about this stuff, though. Better to quickly replace an adult who doesn't understand da program or execute his role honorably than let it gum up a unit for the kids.

 

I can't help yeh with your brain hurtin', though. Perhaps yeh might consider a transplant?

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[fleetfootedfox 10]

Congress passes bills and the President signs them into law. The fact he does the final signing doesn't mean he owns the entire process. I think some people are implying too much from the fact that the CC signs membership forms. I think he's mainly signing to say that to the best of his knowledge the form was filled out correctly.

[fleetfootedfox 10]

Remember that most volunteers are parents and sign up as leaders for the first time along with their boy when the boy joins a pack or troop. That also means that in many cases the CC does not actually know the people who are signing up. In most cases the most he or she really knows is that the adult brings a boy and claims to be their parent. I don't even think that leaders are instructed to ask for I.D., so the information on the form isn't even verified. Background check is the responsibility of the council or national. So, as I said, the CC is just signing to say that the form was filled out correctly. That's all.

[Gold Winger 9]

Beaver, I'm sure that you were attempting to respond to me in your broken English but I can't see your posts now. Sorry. Nah, I'm not, I was just spoofing you.

 

I will say that it is amusing that in one thread you advocate breaking the rules because they don't suit you and now you insist that we follow rules that you're making up. You really do need to get back on the other side of the looking glass.

 

Gold Winger out.