Real problems

[highcountry 13]

I think I have an extremely serious problem and have been taking the heat to try and save our troop....we have a great troop but our CC is a mean and boarderline phsychotic person. This person ended up as CC 9 months ago as their was no one to run against. They were warned point blank that they needed to watch their behavior as the boys and other adults knew she has been a huge problem in previous community organizations, still they commenced with the bad behavior, which got worse month after month, bullying, intimatating, telling the boys what to do, doing things that the committee unanomously agreed not to do, making a bad name for the troop in the community, I could go on forever. Bottom line, thier behavor bacame so bad that 2 months ago adults and scouts began to investigate other troops, some new Webelos coming in are holding off till CC is gone, one new Webelos who has made 2 meetings inquires if this person is going on activities and if they are, he will not sign up. I already have this problem with almost all the other scouts, no one will go to a function if CC is. The CC went WAY over the line in a function a month ago, embarrasing the troop that we had to do damage control with the school district. I am SM and finally had to tell them to tone down how they are dealing with others and since I told them something they did not want to hear, they escalated it into a yelling and screaming opportunity at me.

 

Bottom line, we have 17 adult volunteers with a vote, excepting the CC's own vote for themselves and one conflict averse person who abstained and is avoiding the uglyness, the other 15 have written letters and pleaded with district and COR the stories that have happened and that this person needs to go or teh troop is going to fall apart....very very soon.

 

Thhe charter org rep is a good christian witht he mistaken beleif that anyone can change and that we need to keep teh CC and lift tehm up and show them the way. I asked why it was so important to ignore the 16 other good adults to protect the one troublemaker and never got a very god answer. District rep and commisioner were there but instead of having the courage to make a decison on a black and white case, they delayed again, hoping to arrange a meeting with all the parents and get their opinion.

I asked CC why they persist in fighting to stay when NOT ONE PERSON wants them around and they slipped off tot he typical, I do it for the love of scouts and to protect my dignity.

 

I have backed my scouts, parents and volunteers by taking the heat and fighting the fight but I feel district has not backed me up. The troop is close to destruction and at this point I have totally lost any interest in scouting, even when this battle is over no matter if we win or loose I am done. I took the troop from a financial hole to well into the black, recruited 4 new asst scoutmasters, a treasurer, a quartermaster and 2 secretaries, improved teh boy led program increase members from 23 to 36 scouts and improved activites attendance and advancement. I have this one horribly destructive person and COR is so out of touch they think we are going to stick around and rehab the CC, district won't amke the obvious decison. By our estimates, if she stays and I leave the troop will go from 36 to 6 boys and 17 adult volunteers down to 1 or 2.

 

Am I dreaming or is this an insane situation ? I though district would put an end to the mess, they lost 800 scouts last year alone but now I am begining to see why.

 

Any recomendations ?

[John-in-KC 311]

Welcome to the Forums. Thank you for caring about these young men.

 

There's a lot here we don't know, so our answers may not be the best fit to your situation.

 

I could not tell if you have tried taking your CC someplace for a cup of coffee, and discussing the challenges away from the youth. That is absolutely step 1.

 

You are the Scoutmaster. Your mission as the Program Officer allows you direct access to Commissioners, the Professional Service, and the Institutional Head or Executive Officer. I accept your comments are true, and eqaully accept that the Chartered Organization Representative is not taking action. You are the right PERSON to take the next step; the right person to contact is the Institutional Head or Executive Officer of your Chartered Partner. I would, at the same time, contact your Commissioner.

 

Lay the issues on the table. Be clear and concise. Offer solutions which are in the realm of the resonable and do-able. Ask for other solutions which you have not worked through.

 

There is a "atomic bomb" option. IF, and only IF, you believe your CC is a clear and present danger to the youth, then contact your DE or SE. This is an exceptionally drastic measure, as your SE in most States has statutory reporting requirements under child danger laws. If you use this drastic option, a "no-holds-barred" meeting with the IH/COR is in order: It is time for them to choose between the CC and you.

 

You do have other, much less drastic options:

 

- As SM, you are the Program Officer. You can, legitimately, bar all but your ASMs from meetings. Tell your CC if she has any comments about how the Troop does business to address them to you and only you. She does not make program decisions: The PLC, under your guidance (and in your interaction with the Committee) does that.

 

- If the CC refuses to leave your area of responsibility and authority as the SM, you may, legitimately, step down and leave the Troop of your own volition. Please, please, coordinate this with your IH/COR and Commissioner. If you are not allowed the latitude to make the Troop a right and proper Scouting unit, then say so in your good-bye letter.

 

- Go to your District RT. Ask other SMs if they've had a similar issue. Find out how they've handled it. While this is new to you, it's neither the first nor the last time this has happened in the history of Scouting.

 

Finally, take all this with a grain of salt. Listen to what others here will offer. Somewhere in the middle, you'll grab ideas which will fit who you are and how you want to react to this.

 

Keep us informed, please.

 

YIS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, highcountry. Never put a warm body into a position is the lesson of the day. The person who steps forward ain't always the right one for the job.

 

There's a lot of emotion and energy in your post, so I'd start by takin' some time to relax, walk around the block, and remind yourself that this is just a kid's program. No point in lots of adult shenanigans or egos. It's a shame it's progressed so far down that there's probably little room left for a graceful out. So here's two options to consider.

 

UNOFFICIAL

Sometimes yeh just need to stop yellin' at each other and get on with business. Can you just ignore her when she goes off the reservation? As SM, can you just stop goin' to committee meetings? Call the volunteers you need (treasurer, etc.) directly. Have informal "side meetings" to get things done. In other words, just avoid the conflict and work around your CC by not including her. Committee meetings will get pretty sparse if the SMs and ASMs never show up and decisions are made elsewhere, eh? Host alternate committee meetings at your house. It won't take long before she gets tired of the game. That's harder, though, if she's showin' up for campouts and other events and interferin'. Does she have a son in the program? In other words, do yeh have to send her event notices?

 

OFFICIAL

Simply put, this is your COR's call. The district and council can do nothing if the COR chooses not to act. It's not their troop, it's the CO's. And sadly, da CO can choose to run it into the ground if they desire. There's always the other side of the story, too. Perhaps the CC really is doing the CO's bidding.

 

My advice is that you make an appointment with the IH, the Head of the Chartering Organization who appoints the COR. Bring a few other key ASMs/parents. Lay out a very simple case, in a calm, dignified manner. If there is no change, there will be no adult leaders and the CO will effectively no longer have a troop. Understand that effectively you're asking for both a change in CC and a change in COR, so have two names and paperwork readily available to recommend. Yeh can't leave an ineffective COR in place, nor would a good one stay if he was reversed on a major decision like this. Be sure to be polite, and let the COR know what you're doing.

 

If the IH agrees with you and makes a change, great. If he/she doesn't, then I think yeh all submit your resignations and move on. But since you've got a fairly healthy troop, I would at least work with your DE to consider forming a new troop with a different Chartering Partner.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob 13]

Sounds like a tough situation. I like Beavah's "official" advice. I don't know that his "unofficial" advice will work - depends a lot on the personalities involved, and might actually exacerbate things if (as it sounds) the CC in question digs her heels in further. Plus I'm not a fan of sneaking around and holding "alternate" meetings, failing to inform the CC of events, etc.. In fact, by doing so you may find that you cede the moral high ground because the CC will almost certainly find out what you're up to and then have legitimate grounds to complain about YOU.

 

While I also understand your frustration with the district folks, keep in mind that the removal of uncooperative or obnoxious adult leaders is NOT their job. They really don't have the power to do so; the COR and IH do have that option. All the district folks can do is make recommendations (usually in as hands-off a manner as possible), offer mediation, try to help you smooth over your differences to a point where you can work together "for the boys," etc.. To expect more of them is to invite disappointment and frustration.

 

So if it were me, I guess I'd go back to the CO and lay it out as Beavah suggests. If that doesn't work, find another troop somewhere to share your skills with, take a small backseat role with them, and give yourself (and your son?) space to just enjoy scouting again.

[Aquila calva 10]

Hello highcountry, Welcome to the forums. You describe a situation that many of us have faced to one degree or another. You describe a really bad leader in a very important troop position. The key to getting a grip on your situation may be in your very first sentence. You describe a person who you believe to be a mean and borderline psychotic person. You may, indeed, be dealing with a mentally ill person. And this person is a primary leader in your troop. This can be both difficult and dangerous. You have a lot of time and energy invested in this troop, and you sure dont want to see it all come unraveled. And you certainly dont want to see anyone get hurt, scouts and leaders included.

 

To use the three Rs from Scoutings Youth Protection program.Recognize, Resist, Report. When she does something you consider to be mean you, and the other adults, need to say that is mean. When she does something that is bullying you need to tell her the behavior that is bullying. The same for intimidating, making a bad name for the troop, etc. And you need to do this carefully and with other supportive adults nearby. You need to resist her bad behavior, and you need to report her bad behavior, as other posters have described above. If she says she is staying around to protect her dignity then she is not working in the best interest of the scouts or the troop. Call her on it.

 

One other technique you might try at committee meetings, if you ever attend another one, is to try and avoid setting up a situation where the committee has to vote on things. Try and use a consensus-building approach whenever possible. Individuals feel better about giving their opinion, and alternative solutions to challenges, when there is a more open approach to the discussion. Of course, the CC is the primary person to implement this type of committee structure, and it looks like this may have to wait for another time.

 

I like the quote attributed to Franklin Roosevelt: When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.

 

Rather than quitting the troop, you may want to just take a little vacation. Walk around the block..maybe a few hundred times.

 

Let us know how things develop.

 

 

[Hunt 11]

If the CO and the district aren't being helpful, why do you need the aggravation of dealing with this problem? Why not just lead a mass exodus to another unit? Presumably you aren't a scout leader because you like to fight--I see no reason to stay in there and slug it out. Find another unit and go. Within a very short time, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner, and the boys that follow you will be better off. You could deliver this as an ultimatum to the CO, but again, why excalate the conflict with them?

[highcountry 13]

After a little un-easy delay this mess was finally taken care of properly, I was extremely worried, but some of the advice you folks provided was definitely a help. I wasn't aware the district guys had no real power to make and enforce a decsison so that helped me understand how they didn't pull the plug on CC in such a balck and white case. t rurns out they were 110% behind the position of myself and the rest of the troop but needed to allow the COR the opportunity to become completely comfortable with the obvious decision that had to be made.

 

What ended up happening, COR called a number of parents involved in the troop plus ASM's and various committee members. What she told me was that I got great reviews but the stories about the CC horrified her. COR notified CC this week that her term as CC was over. The trouble spot was removed with scaple precision as ther is no faction int he troop supporting CC.....resentment to her manners, methods and personal skills was 100% universal so we can easily put this behind us and move forward. We have about a half dozen new scouts who are now joining who would not join while she was CC.

 

We are moving ahead like nothing happened although now we are devoting our time and energies to positive things so life is easier. With the fight we had to make, it forged the team together better than ever, and with the negatives removed things are going to be great.

 

Thanks all for your advice.

 

Please remember to take a moment to say a prayer for the 9 firefighters lost in Charlotte this week, it's a sad time for the brotherhood.

[John-in-KC 311]

Thank you for the feedback, highcountry. Too often we don't hear how the story progresses.

 

The next step is finding a Committee Chair. As Beavah said up above, "Never put a warm body into a position." You have almost as close a relationship with the CC as your SPL. Your needs include (in no particular order):

 

- Someone who can listen to the program report and derive support tasks to the Program.

- Someone who will both delegate tasks (and responsibility, and authority) as well as hold adults accountable for results (it really sucks when camp payment is 3 days away and your Treasurer cannot look you in the eye and say we're ready to cut the check! :-( )

- Someone who will encourage the Methods of Scouting from the adult side.

- Someone who loves young men and who will help them grow by stretching them whenever the opportunity arises (but not stretch them by re-testing them!)

- Someone who will take/apply and encourage others to the same, TRAINING.

- In short, someone who will ensure the SPL, the PLC and you have the resources you need, when you need them!

 

Keep the tale going as you get the chance

[Gunny2862 11]

highcountry,

I hope your recent troubles haven't left an overly bad taste in your mouth and that now you have reconsidered you earlier frustrated(?) comment about leaving. You seem like the kind of person we need in Scouting.

 

All, as usual, boy I hope I don't ever wind up in anything like this but it's good to see the wealth of wise thinking (and the results of having attended training) that's willing to help out!

[highcountry 13]

Latest interesting follow up.....

 

I am of strong belief at this point that mental illness as mentioned above may well be an issue.

 

CC was advised by COR a month ago they were done. This week out of the clear blue CC puts an email out to Committee for a Committee meeting this week with one days notice to boot. nearly all the agenda items were non issues. To add to this, she states she will continue to be CC untill her term expires at the end of summer, ignoring the fact she was toast at teh begining of this month.

 

Odd for someone removed from CC to think they can set up meetings......odd that when told they were finished weeks ago that they think they can set up meetings......odd to set up meetings with a days notice.

 

Also she volunteered to take on fund raising chair position, it was a fundraiser where her behavior was the straw that broke the camels back regarding her contact with scouts, outside organizations and other adults. She's been told that the last thing we need is to allow her contact with anyone.

 

She has brought on the embarrasment now of havint to have the COR put a formal notice out to the entire troop that she was removed as of the begining of July to eliminate the confusion being created. Committee knows she is no longer CC so the meeting she proposed was attended by no one. In the mean time committee is planning to meet and fill the CC position as well as the fund raising chair position.

 

We are doing OK and moving ahead and need to formally notify district, council and our bank that despite anything she says, she at this ppoint is just another parent in the troop and nothing more.

 

Many of you out there have anyone nearly this abrasive, bizzare or out of touch in your experience ?

 

Just to give you an example of how much this person is in denial about her actions, several years ago her dogs escaped and maimed a neighbor's animal in the neighbor's yard. The neighbor caught the dogs in the act and contained them in his garage. The dogs had the blood of the animal they attacked on thier faces and were identified as her dogs, yet she denied her dogs ahd anything to do with the attack, right up to the point the Judge ordered her to pay the medical bills and pay for containments of her precious dogs. It is as if this person is on another planet or something....

[John-in-KC 311]

Highcountry,

 

Respect, responsibility, caretaking ... was a hierarchy of support to others by any one person (me or you).

 

You are not the one to take care of her.

 

You do not have to take responsibility for her actions. You do, however, have to take responsibility for the Troops' actions going forward.

 

You have to respect your unit and the adults in it.

 

If the former CC continues to be a challenge, there are additional options out there. Be careful; if she's a Mom in the unit, some of them may bounce to the youth as secondary impact:

 

- Talk with your COR. You may want to ask the Chartered Partner to contact Council and remove the woman from the BSA membership rolls. That is a drastic option.

 

- Again, talk with your COR. If she continues to call meetings and interferes with the program in any way, you may have to ask for authority to call 911 and have her removed by the gendarmerie. Do not do this on your own, make sure the Chartered Partner stands behind you going into this.

 

- At a less drastic level than either of the two above, if you have to ask her to leave each week, do so. If you need to detail an ASM to show her the door so you can do the program, do so.

 

Thanks again for the feedback, we're grateful when we do. Take a look at the various leader selection literature available at the National website; you want a CC who is there to support the youth and the program!

[Its Me 10]

 

No I have not encountered someone that bizzare in a position of authority in a volunteer organization.

 

Yes she was only there for the children .

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, da world is full of all types, eh? And sometimes people find small ponds like scout troops are a place they can play at bein' big fish. I've seen quite a few over the years, most not quite as "reality challenged", but a few substantially worse.

 

Good job to all of you who are handling it well and taking the steps to protect your program and keep things focused on the kids.

 

Beavah