knot the usual knot question...

[Lugnuts Dad]

I have a question about tenure for training knots. Currently I am registered as a Tiger DL, but when the Troop that our Pack feeds recharters I am going to be put on as an ASM. I also was recently appointed to our District Committee as Training Chairman. As our Pack is one of 4 in a very small community, I've had problems getting the five Tiger Cubs for me to earn the TDL knot. So I figured I could work on the Cub Scouter knot. Only thing I need for that is the Service Project which will be done this year as part of my WB ticket. Since I will be involved with the Troop now too, I was looking at the BS Leader's Training Award. Plus there's the District Committee Key too.

 

Now I know that a lot of the awards say "tenure for this award cannot blah blah blah..." But can it still be used if the awards are for different programs (Boy Scout vs. Cub Scout)? As of recharter, I will be registered as a leader for both. Let's not get into the whole "more than one hat" discussion either lol. Also how would the tenure requirement for the District Key fit into all of this? Will it take me 7 years (2 for Cub Scouter, 2 for BS Leader, 3 for District Key) or is there some way of overlapping?

 

I don't want to get into the "panamanian general" argument, but I've taken a VERY active approach to Scouts in my 2 short years as a leader. And I want my fellow Scouters and parents, not to mention the boys, to recognize that I do have some experience (and a heck of a lot of training) and might actually have something intelligent to say. In my area, a lot of people look down on us TDL's like we're not "real" leaders even though we may have the hardest group to keep focused.

 

Sorry this was so long but I was hoping for informed opinions and didn't want to have to answer too many questions over and over.

[Gold Winger]

If you are registered with a pack, troop and the district committee at one time, then that time counts for the Cub Scouter, Boy Scout Leader and District Committee awards.

 

As you have figured out, you cannot use you time as Den Leader to count for both the Den Leader award and Cub Scouter award. However, if you earn the DL award and then spend more years as a DL, you can use those extra years towards the Cub Scouter award.

 

 

[Lugnuts Dad]

That's what I was hoping to hear, winger. I just didn't see the sense in restricting the use of tenure for something that is completely unrelated to another award. But, hey, we all know that BSA has some rules that are even more silly than that.

 

Thanks much

[BrentAllen]

GW's answer is incorrect. Unless otherwise specified, time counted towards an award cannot be counted towards another, even in another program. For example, the Tiger Leader knot states "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." There is no Cub Scouter key, so this language applies across all programs.

[Lugnuts Dad]

No Cub Scouter Key?? Au contraire, well sort of... There is the Cub Scouter Award ( http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ca ) that I realized I have fulfilled. This seems to be similar to the Scoutmaster Key although not quite as involved. I'm kinda giving up on the TDL knot for this year as we've had trouble recruiting in our area (council wide, not just our pack) and the 5 new Tiger team requirement isn't realistic at this point in the year. Guess I'll just have to be patient, the clock will start over in about 2 months anyway. I think I will discuss this with our SE regardless, since the District Committee Key has the exclusive tenure clause and I intend to earn it and the BSLeader Training Award (both would look nice as I am our district's Training Chairman right now, kind of a "been there, done that, I can help" thing).

 

Thanks for your input Brent

[Gold Winger]

Sorry Brent but not quite.

 

If you are a Cub Master from 2000 - 2004, you can put in for the Cub Master Award.

 

If you are also Troop Committtee Member from 2001-2004, you can put in for the Boy Scout Leader award.

 

If you are registered as a District Committee Member from 2002-2005, you are eligible for that award.

 

It the same organization overlap that isn't permitted. You cannot use time that you counted for Cub Master Award for the Cub Scouter Award UNLESS you are a Cub Master with one Pack and registered with another pack as a Committee Member. Each simultaneous registration gives you another clock for purposes of awards.

 

I'm an example of that. I earned the Boy Scout Leader Training Award and was working on the District Committee Key at the same time. Two registrations, two clocks.

 

 

 

[Lugnuts Dad]

Winger, those dates you quoted look suspiciously specific lol. I do find it a bit surprising though that someone at our level would be allowed to use sensible logic and interpret (bend?) requirements like that. I thought that was the exclusive power of the almighty gods in Texas and us peons had to follow everything to the letter. Huh, 'magine dat! As I said in my prior post, I think I'll discuss this with my Scout Exec. Wouldn't want to summon the Wrath of Texas, ya know.(This message has been edited by Lugnuts Dad)

[Gold Winger]

I was never a Cub Master :-)

 

Maybe we are doing it wrong but I find it silly that if someone was dual registered that he'd have to wait six years to get his second award.

 

Of course it would be nice to have a pipeline to the Gods in Texas to get an official ruling. Anytime that I've asked my DE a question like this, I'm told "I don't know. Why are you asking?" The time that I've send the SE and email with a question like this, I was told to ask the DE.

 

 

[FScouter]

The "gods" in Texas already have a pipeline direct to you "peons". It's called the Leadership Training Committee Guidebook. In it you will find answers to all your "knot" questions, all laid out in crystal clear language. No sense bothering the DE or SE about something they havn't any reason to know about.

[Lugnuts Dad]

Winger,

 

At least you have a DE. I'm in Eamonn's boat (Not his Ship) just the same District. I'm sure you've seen some of his rants about our District situation. The one we had, I have to agree with Ea, was completely worthless. Nice kid, but...

 

FS,

 

2 months on District Committee and haven't seen it yet. I'm still waiting for the syllabuses (is that a word?) for the District-level training (by the way, I'm the District Training Chairman). Give you any clues on how things are going within our District? Some of the people honestly don't know the answers, and those that do, tend not to share them.(This message has been edited by Lugnuts Dad)

[BrentAllen]

Yes, FScouter, on page 25 of the Leadership Training Committee Guide, in the chapter titled "Leadership Training Recognition" under "How Recognition Works."

"Tenure used to earn one key or award cannot be used to earn another key or award, unless otherwise noted in the award requirements."

 

Note this chapter covers all the training award knots, not just one program area. The language applies to all the training knot awards.

[Gold Winger]

"syllabuses (is that a word?)"

 

Syllabi

 

tenure (tnyer, -yr) noun

1. a. The act, fact, or condition of holding something in one's possession, as real estate or an office; occupation. b. A period during which something is held.

 

I would argue that different position, different tenure.

 

Hence, your time as Cub Master cannot be used as time for both Cub Master Award and Cub Scouter Award because they are the same tenure. However, your simultaneously held position as District Committee has its own tenure, so you can earn another award using those same calendar years.

 

 

 

[Lugnuts Dad]

Winger,

 

I know that syllabi is the plural version, I just hesitate to use those funky Latin plurals around people I don't know. Makes me feel like a snoot when they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about. If you have already done the double-tenure thing there must be provisions for it. I realize I can't use time for TDL, DL, WebDL, CM for more than one award, but it just seems ridiculous not to be able to use time for a pack or troop award concurrently with a district award, unless we're being discouraged to wear more than one hat.

 

Brent,

 

Again, haven't seen that publication. Asked for it, but haven't seen it yet. If you have an electronic copy feel free to sent me a copy. I figure I would have better luck here than with our current District/Council leadership.

[Gold Winger]

" Makes me feel like a snoot when they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about."

 

I look at it this way, if they had paid attention in the ninth grade, they'd understand what I said.

[BrentAllen]

I guess we are back to the level where it all depends on what the definition of "is" is.

 

It seems to me that if the BSA meant to say what you interpret, they would have added language to make that distinction. It would be very easy to say:

 

"Tenure used to earn one key or award cannot be used to earn another key or award IN THE SAME PROGRAM AREA, unless otherwise noted in the award requirements."

 

Lug,

Pick up a copy at your Scout Shop. Purple cover.

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