BSA as Guide Service

[Twocubdad 665]

In the parent thread I suggested that councils help troops offer more high-adventure style programs by providing BSA certified instructors and/or guides at their camps on a year-round basis. Scoutrigde pointed out that problems were with cost (which I acknowledge) and the basic volunteer structure of the BSA.

 

Maybe I'm over-emphasizing the guide service analogy, but here's my point. Ten-and-a-half months a year, BSA sits on a lot of under utilized equipment and facilities. Now, if I call our camp ranger and want to reserve the climbing wall, he's more than happy to sign me up -- the calendar is wide open. But I have to have someone from the council COPE/Climbing committee open it for me. "Okay, who?" "I forget his name, but if you call the office, they can tell you." Well, I just took a swing at a weeks-long tar baby. Several phone calls finding someone authorized to run the tower -- first guy doesn't do it anymore, second guy's certification has expired, third guy only works with his home troop, finally find a guy but it's next fall before he and the troop have a common weekend that works. Been there, done that.

 

All I'm suggesting is that when I call to make a reservation, the ranger asks if I have someone in the troop certified to run the wall. No? Then the council has a list of folks for us: Good Ol' Bill is a volunteer and will run the program for free, but his in Florida with his kids until April, if we want to wait until then. The assistant COPE director from summer camp will do it for $100, but he's not the sharpest pencil in the box and you have to work around his college schedule. OR, for $300, we have a professional climbing instructor who brings he own gear, much better than what the camp has. He's a top-notch instructor and on Sunday takes the boys off-site to climb real rock. If I've got 20 boys for the weekend, $15pp is a great deal for a top-notch program.

 

I'm not suggesting the council pay folks to staff camp year round. Obviously there's no money for that. But looking at a number of guide service web sites, it seems like most of these guys are getting $250 or $300 per day. Of course taking 20 boys out is different than two stock brokers, but a troop will still have its usual complement of leaders to help and besides, the whole idea is for the council to find folks willing to work with Scouts. If all this could be done with volunteers, great. But I don't have a problem spending some money to get a great program.

 

And it doesn't even have to be that sophisticated. I think the campmaster program is not a bad model. This could be a program-side version of that. Or just a couple college kids from summer camp who will run the mountain board course if you throw them 25 bucks and feed them. But right now, if my guys want to go mountain boarding, I've got nothing for them.

 

We always talk about the promise of Scouting and the promise of adventure. Back in the day, my buddies and I were more than happy to spend a weekend hanging around a campfire. Scouts today expect more than that. In the parent thread I mentioned my theory of the Mountain Dew Factor, by which boys expect everthing to be as exciting as a Mountain Dew ad. My troop regularly does stuff that I only experienced at Philmont or in the outdoor program at college.

 

Many units have a hard time keeping up with that. We have a big troop and lots of adults. But even still we have a hard time finding folks with the proper certification to run shooting or climbing or with the expertise for some of these more esoteric outdoor activiites.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Eagle92 110]

One thing my council has done is use their summer camp Venturing Crew, i.e. all their summer camp staff, year round to offer programs. Sometimes they do get paid, most of the times they don't. And that does include director level folks. Most staffers love the camp so much, they are willing to work with enough advance notice.

 

It's doable, but it is a lot of work. We have a full time pro whose only job is to supervise the programs at the main scout reservation comprising Camp Boddie, formerly know as Camp Bonner, and the Pamlico Sea Base. He's the one that organizes and get staff.

[Basementdweller 608]

What is a campmaster????? I have never met one of those either.

 

It would be impossible for BSA to meet the demand for this service......Our council is made up of 500 troops covering 1/3rd of our state. On any given weekend say 10% of the units want to partake.....that means we would need 50 experts and 50 locations to do the high adventure.

 

We have BSA people calling themselves experts who clearly are not......

 

if you want this to happen you need to create a certification school

Rappel master

Back country

White Water

Cope

and what ever else.

 

There must be a written and practical test.....The participants need to be allowed to fail......participation should not equal auto pass.

 

I have looked at the REI trips and they look fun, but they are really expensive.

 

I am no expert, but I have been around long enough to spot one.

[Eagle92 110]

Base,

 

At least in my neck of the woods, Campmasters are volunteers who help check in and out units using camp, provide help if needed, and basically runt he the camp so the ranger can get a day off, or more than likely, work on a major project uninterrupted. They do go through training, usually a weekend long, and are supervisory as they don't run things.

 

In reference to schools, BSA does have one: National Camping School. It's a week long, focuses on different areas of camp, i.e. Aquatics, COPE, etc. and WILL fail you if you don't meet the requirements.

 

At the time I did COPE, you were also certified to run a climbing and rappelling tower, but I think they separated the two. All I know is that after working on a tower 1/2 of summer in the UK ( other 1/2 was on the range) and NCS COPE, I could handle any wall. While I knew the specs and safety involved in rocks and going down clifs (I did go down the White Cliffs of Dover ) I would defer to an expert on running it.

[ScoutBox 11]

This interesting. We are lucky to have severl parnets in our troop, and we use sort of a Powderhorn way of contacts to do it all. The Troop is going on a Glasier Hike in Feburary, and will rappell and ice clinb that same day. Will cost some bucks though. But sure to be fun. Id like to go to some of the courses offered through the BSA like COPE etc.. Have to check with my DE..

[Terry Bliss 10]

As a BSA Project COPE Driector, a BSA Climbing and Rappelling Director, as chairman of the local Council Climbing and Rappelling Committee, I need to log on and correct a few misconceptions.

 

First, I strongly suggest you read the rules regarding high adventure, starting with the Guide to Safe Scouting, Climb On Safely, Safe Swim/Safety Afloat, Caving (joint with the NSS) and so on- there are many others for other specific activities. The 2 minute summary is, there is nothing stopping you from using a private guide service, as long as they are properly qualified, insured, etc. The general guideline is, if you go off BSA property and use non-BSA qualified instructors and equipment, the liability rests with the eauipment and service provider, not with BSA. Lots of BSA groups do this regularly, especially for activities such as white water rafting, which are simply not available on Scout property.

 

If you read the above referenced docs you will realize that Climbing and COPE for example, require much more than a single staffer, as you suggest. A National Camp School trained Director plus a second qualified Instructor is the minimum requirement for Project COPE, and a third staffer is required for each additional 6 participants. Same is true for Climbing, except a Lead Instructor can run a tower. Thus, for your Troop of 20 Scouts, a minimum of 4 currently trained staff are required, and more would be preferred, especially for a trip to the local rocks (I would know, this is something I do regularly). This is not a small matter. Many camps (ours included) only have 3 or 4 climbing staff in the summer, so the chances of finding 4 currently qualified staff from the summer crew who are available on a given spring or fall weekend is nil. In my current Council (DelMarVa) and a past Council where I volunteered (Atlanta) we have a crew of 35 and 75 trained volunteers we can call on for spring and fall weekends, respectively.

 

Not all Councils have this (large volunteer weekend staff) resource. It sounds like yours does not. While that is not unusual, it is not appropriate to critize the Council or the individuals for their lack of availability at your convenince. The solution is for you or other adults from your large Troop to acquire the requisite training and volunteer to help staff such events for your Troop and for others. Week long National Camp School sessions are offered about 15-20 times per year in all regions of the country, for about $500 plus transportation expenses. I have been there twice myself, and look forward to my next session.

 

Many local Councils also offer entry level (Instructor) courses on weekends, usually for less than $100. Your profile does not list your location, but if you are near Delaware, I will be happy to send you our dates. We offer the Instructor level training every April and September for weekend volunteers, and work with Lead Instructor candidates on a one on one basis as needed.

 

While it is true that some BSA Camp Rangers can't come up with appropriate staff contacts off the top of their heads, they are right to refer you to the Council office staff, where this responsibility usually lies. That's how it works in my Council and all I know of. This system does work if the Council has a cadre of volunteers. In 2010 I worked 21 weekend climbing events (14 through BSA) and 24 in 2009.

 

Not everyone has the time, physical abilities, skills, interest, and willingness to assume responsibility in a dangerous environment for groups of Scouts they don't even know. Although the Council does charge a nominal fee for weekend use (far less than a private contractor) in order to maintain the equipment, I have never accepted so much as gas money for this, in fact I willingly pay several thousand dollars a year in cash and equipment donations and out of pocket expenses to do so. I know I can say the same for others who volunteer for COPE, Climbing, and many other high adventure activities for BSA. People do this because they love to create opportunities for youth that would not happen without their efforts. As you have seen, in some Councils, primarily due to a lack of willing and able volunteers, it simply does not happen.

 

So, Twocubdad, please put these comments in perspective and consider the possibility of seeking training for some volunteers from your Troop to cover program areas of interest in your Council. Many Troops do not have anywhere near enough active parents, but if yours does, this is a great way to find a niche volunteer opportunity that will allow you to make things happen that clearly will not happen otherwise.

[Basementdweller 608]

And there ya have it, the reality of what is actually required.

 

terry 21 weekends is a big commitment. Thank you(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Twocubdad 665]

Terry, I appreciate your input and feedback. By and large, I believe we are in general agreement, the rest is a lack of clarity or information. I do understand what your points, just didn't try to make my OP an omnibus discussion of high adventure activities.

 

I do understand the G2SS requirements for these activities. I realize when a unit uses outside facilities and staff for an activity, the unit is not required to follow all BSA procedures. An example familiar to most folks is a troop or pack using a swimming pool with it's own lifeguards. Instead of running a BSA-spec waterfront, the unit follows the rules of the facility and the instructios of the lifeguards.

 

And I do have ASMs in my troop who have tried and are trying to get the appropriate training to take the troop on these activites. Most have the basic skills to lead the activity, but have been unable to arrange for BSA training. I have a retired Marine weapons instructor who owns his own private range, but who thus far had not been able to swing the time, money or logistics for the necessary NRA training. Similarly, I have another ASM who has tried for a year to get into the rare COPE/Climbing instructor course. So far, only one was held in a neighboring council he couldn't get into. When the one-and-only course happens to fall the weekend or your wedding anniverary, well.... You're probably 8-10 hours from us, but my guy may very well be willing to drive that distance for the course. I may PM you for details.

 

I have the bodies, but getting them through the training is an issue. And that's a facet of my original point. If the Promise of Scouting is high adventure, perhaps part of the solution is for national to do a better job of opening these certification courses to unit-serving Scouters. I teach the Cub Scout Day Camp course of National Camping School, but even being in that loop I never get any information regarding upcoming high adventure NCS courses. Heck, Basementdweller, a long-time Scouter, wasn't aware of their existence.

 

As far as my expectation of the council volunteers goes, I don't know that it is more or less appropriate to wish council volunteers do this than it is to wish troop volunteers would do that. Besides, that's not my point. And keep in mind the original thread from which this was spun related to the new 2011-2015 Strategic Plan; specifically a goal of BSA evaluating new outdoor activities.

 

My point is this:

 

1. If BSA is going to promote "adventure" there needs to be more of a mechanism for units to deliver on that. As you point out, not every unit or even every council has the resources to do this. My point is to make available to units the trained people -- paid, volunteer or both -- to deliver this promise of adventure. I'll add to that your suggestion to make it easier for units to get their own people trained and certified.

 

2. We need to change the fact that most councils sit with their greatest assets padlocked for eight months of the year. While our council -- and I assume most councils -- bend over backwards to make our camps availible for general camping, all the "good" facilities -- climbing towers, shooting ranges, aquatics facilities, even craft tools -- are available only during summer camp. Why? The lack of people trained to run those facilities. Sure troops can use paid guides and outfitters. But we're going to pay for their people, facilities and equipment while BSA equipment and facilities grow moss.

 

And by no means is that a swipe at folks like you who have the training. Volunteers are volunteers and we're all doing what we can do. But within the context of a five-year strategic plan, I would like to see national include a emphasis to help councils develop this year-round capability. Part of that could include our push to get unit leaders to NCS; part of it could be to train camp rangers, campmasters or council program staff to develop programs to match troops with the people who can help them (and I'm seeing it was probably a mistake for me to originally call this a "guide service"); or -- and I'm just spit-balling here -- maybe national could develop a program to certify guides and outfitters to work with troops. Shoot, Supply Division does that for the vendors who make patches, why can't the program folks do it for outfitters?

[Beavah 205]

While that is not unusual, it is not appropriate to critize the Council or the individuals for their lack of availability at your convenince. The solution is for you or other adults from your large Troop to acquire the requisite training

 

Nah, of course it's appropriate to criticize the council, Terry.

 

If we council folks aren't providing the service that the units want or need, then we should be criticized, eh? And we should listen carefully to that feedback.

 

Now you're right, of course, that we have regulated camp climbing activities to death, eh? And maybe da criticism will get us to rethink that. And you're right that shovin' people off on private outfitters reduces our liability exposure.... but it also reduces da quality of support we're providing for the units, perhaps their quality of experience with a guide service not familiar with kids/scouting, and certainly the level of loyalty and FOS donations we're able to generate from grateful units .

 

Like TwoCubDad, I worry about da underutilization of our properties. If yeh compare our camps to another organization like YMCA, yeh find that the YMCA camps are almost always more highly utilized year-round, with staff available to run da sorts of things TwoCub is talking about. And as a result, there's more revenue, the camps are often better maintained, and there's a bigger pool of donors for capital campaigns to support da camp property.

 

That's a lot to give up for pages of regulations and a put-it-on-the-units approach to council service.

 

Beavah

[shortridge 184]

Correct me if I'm wrong ... but my understanding of NCS is that it's nigh-impossible for a lone Scouter to attend. Even if I were to pay my own way to take _____ training, I'd likely get bumped at the last minute by a council camp staffer who takes precedence.

 

NCS is not designed for unit Scouters seeking higher training - it's aimed at council employees who run summer camps.

 

Either that needs to change, or we need an intermediate level of certification for unit Scouters.

[ScoutBox 11]

Over here, its us Scouters that runt eh show. COuncil needs us to provide the man power to put on these camps etc.. Council is smaller here in man power so it works out so that the Scoutershave a bit more power at Council.

[Terry Bliss 10]

I don't think I can attach the flier with the 2011 National Camping School dates and locations, but here is the web address in response to those that want to know: www.ncsbsa.org/calendar.

 

Regarding the comment from Shortridge that it is difficult for a lone Scouter (vs a Council employee) to go, that has not been my experience, and I certainly qualify as a lone Scouter. I added at the last minute both times I went. Strictly speaking, the only must-have interaction you need from the Council is a Council executive's signature on the application form.

 

Barring cost issues, a Council would be crazy to not want lone Scouters to go, as they are a great resource. Many Councils have a large cadre of NCS trained people. Again using my current Council as an example, DMV Council has 2 currently qualified NCS trained Climbing Directors, in addition to the summer staff people. Atlanta Area Council, where I came from, had more like 10 COPE and Climbing Directors outside of summer staff. I know that shooting sports also tend to have lots of "lone Scouter" type attendees at NCS.

 

However, it is not surprising that most of the attendees are there in preparation for a summer camp job. Summer camps typically have a high annual staff turnover rate, and it is absolutely necessary to have a NCS-trained Director in many areas. You also see some church and other non-BSA camp people there, because it is widely known that BSA's training programs are great and widely available, compared to privately run training.

 

By comparison, the Ranger and Program Director NCS programs have virtually all Council and summer staff employees, as would be expected.

 

I have never heard of anyone being bumped from NCS to make room for summer camp staff by NCS. Quite the opposite, I saw last minute hires added several days after the program started. This is not to say it does not happen, but I think it is not common. Just a suggestion, if you go to a fall session, this would be very unlikely to be an issue.

 

As to why more lone Scouters don't go, I believe it is because they are not asked to go, and because in general they don't know about it, how to get info, etc. There is no particular reason why any Troop level volunteer would know that NCS even exists- it tends to operate below the radar screen. The sort of person that would take the initiative to learn that there is a NCS, why and how to go, when and where to go, and then commit an extra week of their vacation time to go, are indeed the hard core volunteers.

[Twocubdad 665]

Thanks for the link. I'll forward it to my guy who wants to do the climbing training.

 

Beav, I would add that complaining about council is a time-honored Scouting tradition, one I learned at the knee of my dear old Scoutmaster. But that probably won't help my case here.

[Eagle92 110]

if memory serves, the SE has to approve the NCS app. So if he wants to limit it to employees only.