Den leader knots for Wolves AND Bears?

[asecary 10]

I have this issue with one of our Den Leaders in our pack and I hope someone can clear it up as no one seems to know the answer or I get conflicting answers. I have a leader in Web 1 who transferred from another pack. He has the Tiger Knot but has two Den leader knots. He was a Den leader for Wolves and Bears and completed the requirements both times. I thought he could only get one for either Wolves or Bears not both. He also has the Cub Scouter knot that he said he earned during Tigers and Wolves. I thought that the years don't count for both the Tiger Knot and Den leader knot when doing Cub Scouter?

 

I don't want to start something but I am just more wondering than anything.

 

Did I miss something?

 

 

[ScoutLass 10]

Never heard of earning one each for Wolf and Bear. It says right on the award application "Dates of Service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." So yeah, one of the cub scout years technically counts toward the Cub Scouter award, but one doesn't and the Tiger year doesn't. How I understand them to work (though the combination for Cub Scouter can change):

Tiger Leader: 1 year :Tiger Leader Knot

 

Wolf Leader: 1 year :Cub Scout Leader Knot

 

Webelos I Leader: 1 year: Webelos leader Knot

 

Bear Leader: 1 year :1/2 Cub scouter knot earned

Webelos II Leader: 1 year :other 1/2 Cub Scouter knot earned.

[asecary 10]

That is what I thought. Thank you!

[jrdalys 10]

I'm pretty sure that you can't earn the same knot twice (the DL knot in this case). I'm 100% sure that the requirements for the Cub Scouter knot spell out that the time in service requirement for it can't also be used for another award.

 

That said...is it really worth the fight? If he's a good den leader (if he runs a good program for the boys), I'd just plain let it go. if he isn't a good den leader...I'd stay on point about why he's a bad den leader.

 

In my opinion the knots are there to encourage service, which he has given. Is he wearing them right? No. Did he really earn all he's wearing? Probably not. But at the end of the day, providing HE thinks he really earned them and the person who approved them thinks he really earned them, who really cares?

 

Way bigger things to worry about out there.

 

Just my $.02

 

 

[Basementdweller 608]

Scoutlass...I disagree with you about Cub Scouter knot..... Read the requirements. It is not meant for den leaders. This award is intended for Committee members or ACM's.

[ADCinNC 16]

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CSLeaderRecAwards.aspx

 

"tenure used for one award may not be used for another."

 

and

 

Cub Scouter Award

 

Tenure

 

Complete two years as a registered adult leader in a Cub Scout pack.

Training

Complete Fast Start training, if available for your position.

Complete This Is Scouting and specific training for any Cub Scouting position.

Complete Youth Protection training.

During each year of tenure for this award, participate in a Cub Scout Leader pow wow or university of Scouting, or attend at least four roundtables.

 

Performance

 

Do five of the following:

Assist in planning a pack program that results in advancement in rank by a minimum of 50 percent of pack members each year.

Serve as an adult leader related to a pack that earns the national Quality Unit Award.

Serve as leader of a blue and gold dinner, pinewood derby, space derby, raingutter regatta, field day, picnic or other Cub Scout pack activity.

Give leadership to a promotional effort that results in at least 60 percent of pack families subscribing to Boys' Life magazine.

Develop or update a Tiger Cub or Cub Scout den activity book listing local places to go, things to do, costs, distances, etc., for the five Tiger Cub areas, or for at least 12 Cub Scout themes.

Give leadership to planning and conducting a pack service project.

Organize participation of a pack in the Cub Scout Academics and Sports program.

Help conduct two annual pack Friends of Scouting campaigns.

Serve as a leader for members of your pack attending a Cub Scout day camp or resident camp.

 

I read it as any "registered adult leader in a Cub Scout pack", so yes den leaders can qualify for this award.

 

Either case, only one knot should be worn per award earned, and maybe for fun give them a copy of the Insignia Guide. He may not realize he is in error with the knot.

[Scoutfish 16]

You say he transfered from another pack?

 

How long was he with that pack?

 

He can earn an award as a Tiger lkeader, each year as a den leader, and as a Webelos Den Leader.

 

Was he an ADL or on committee at some point when not being a DL? He could have earned the award at that time.,

 

Also, was he in more than one pack or unit? He could be a Tiger DL in one pack, and a ADL or committee member in another.

 

Some knots look similar too. Maybe he was somehow erronously given a wrong knot or paper work could have been crossed and he was double awarded a knot?

 

It's also possible his former CM turned in the paperwork for a DL position while the CC turned in paperwork for Scouter Award.

[asecary 10]

well here is my issue and it's happening here as well...

 

Scout fish says:

 

He can earn an award as a Tiger lkeader, each year as a den leader, and as a Webelos Den Leader.

 

so some people say that he can earn one each year as a den leader and some people say that he can't. I am not trying to make this a big issue and I really am not going to do anything since he is such a good leader. I am more wondering than anything.

 

I have contacted our council and half of them say that he can have it and half say that he can't. It shows that he received it both years for Wolves and Bears.

 

Again I am not 'out to get him' I just want to know for the future to pass along the info to the next set. I really hate that it's so ambiguous in the book. Why can't they just say you can earn this for both Wolves and Bears OR say it's one or the other.

[Eagle92 110]

Cub Scouter Award is geared to A) those not in DL or CM positions, i.e. committee, ADLs, etc, and B) those DLs who have already earned DL or Cm award and keep on going.

 

Tenure cannot overlap, so someone to earn all the awards would be active for 9 years with no overlap:

1 year as a TCDL

1 year as a CSDL

1 year as a WDL

2 years as a CM OR 1 year ACM, 1 year CM

2 years as a Trainer

2 years "... as a registered adult leader in Cub Scouting in a pack."

 

So someone who spend 5 years in the program as in the three DL positions could earn the 3 DL awards and Cub Scouter Award.

 

 

[Scoutfish 16]

Yeah, doing the requirement math, it can be done.

 

But the point I was trying to make is that a paerson can be a member of more than one pack also.

 

For example, I almost joined another pack that is brand new to help out as a den leader.

 

I didn't , due to too much on my plate as it is aside from family time...know what I mean?

 

But had I went ahead and joined, I could earn...for example Tiger Den Leader in that pack while also earning WEbelos Den Leader in my current pack.

 

Or , as I am the CM of my pack, I could work on the first half of my CM knot year, but also earn a Tiger knot from this year at the second pack and the Wolf knot next year at the other pack while working on my second year ofr the CM knot at my pack. Then at the end of a 2 year period, I have earned 4 years worth of knots.

 

Now lets pretned I was just crazy and became the Pack trainer at a 3rd pack.

 

At the end of a 2 year calendar period, I could earn 6 years of knots in that 2 year time.

 

And, you know, that wouldn't be too crazy for some people.

 

I am the CM of my pack, but also the Cub Scout camp promotions for my district , as well as a MB counselor for our sister troop. And I do help out a brand new pack around the corner from my house in an unoffical position ( part time and not on paper).

[Eagle92 110]

'Fish,

 

I don't remember if it was here, or on the MYSCOUTING.ORG site, but this topic did come up for folks who are duel enrolled, i.e. SM in one troop and WDL in another, or CM in one unit, WDL in a 2nd, SM in a 3rd unit, and Crew Advisor in a 4th, and AA in a 5th ( in this guy's case 4 units are 9 month units, the 5th is summer camp staff, he's more of an addict to scouting than I am ). If memory serves, the consensus was that the person would have to choose which knot to apply his tenure to.

[Basementdweller 608]

Have I mentioned recently that I hate adult awards........

 

 

This sort of non-sense is the result. We have an adult that wants to walk around looking like Patton with 4 years of cub scouting........

 

 

HEY wait a minute.......Someone should tell him about the James West knot....least council will benefit

[asecary 10]

I don't have a problem with the awards... I just wanted a clear clarifictation on the den leader knot.

[Scoutfish 16]

I don't think the guy should wear all the knots on one uniform if they should be on different uniforms...

IE: If he earns the CM knot for pack 123

and the Tiger and Cub Scout Leader for pack 456 , then the knots should be only on the uiniform for which pack it was earned at.

 

As far as tenure goes..you hafta figure that an average scout year - as it applies to the tenure - consists of about one night a week.

 

So If I go to pack 123 on Mondays, pack 456 on Tuesdays, pack 135 on Thursdays, and pack 987 of Saturadays...and the psycho ward on FRiadys

 

Then In would actually have earned full tenure for each knot within the one year ( 1 of 2 for CM knot) time for each uinit without crossing or sharing the tenure.

 

 

 

Know what I mean> If I am able to say...have over the required amount of boys advance to the next rank from each den I am a leader of...then I have earned it.

 

If I get training for each rank within that year...it is still not sharedtenure or requirements if each rank is a different rank or training level.

 

 

Now, if I was a Tiger Den Leader in all my different packs, I see that thebtraining would be

shared or quadriple dipping.

 

In any event, I would say each case would have to be individually gone over.

 

But I still think each not should be regulated to the shirt that has the unit numbers of the unit it was earned at. and not one shirt with the whole collective of knots together.

[Basementdweller 608]

Scoutfish.....after about 6 months of that......you would come home to find your wife gone.

 

Known a couple of gun ho scouters who chose scouting over their families. Come home from a scouting weekend and all the furniture is gone or locks changed and their cloths on the front porch.

 

 

Just sayin....