sign offs and BORs

[Lisabob 13]

Venivedi, I have a question about your suggestion to firecrafter.

 

Now in the context of the situation firecrafter describes, I can see where your suggestion makes a lot of sense. What I'm wondering is whether the SM can tell a boy he can't work on a particular mb at any given time? (and I really mean this as a question, not a criticism of your advice) For example, could the SM tell a boy that a mb is too advanced/too difficult for him and deny him access to it? What about telling a boy who is progressing very slowly through the ranks that he needs to work on rank adv. and can't do more mbs right now? How about if a boy has a bunch of partials and wants to start new mbs?

 

The above scenarios are all occuring within our troop although the SM has not said no to anybody yet. It is something that has been discussed on occasion though and I'm curious whether he could, if he wanted to? From the sound of your post, it seems he could.

 

Also, is it fair game for a BOR to ask a scout who is either advancing very slowly but has a bunch of mbs, or one who is advancing very quickly with no mbs (through 1st class anyway) to switch gears a little bit and focus on the other side of things?

 

So much to learn...

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[Venividi 35]

Thought I had replied, but don't see the reply posted an hour later, so I must have mucked things up. Will try again.

 

Lisabob,

I recommend trying to keep the implementation of the MB program consistent with the aims you are trying to achieve; principally character and citizenship. If you find you are running counter to the aims in certain situations, then evaluate and modify as needed.

 

you ask: What I'm wondering is whether the SM can tell a boy he can't work on a particular mb at any given time? My view: yes, if you aren't seeing evidence that a scout is not exibiting what you are expecting relative to the scout oath and law.

 

you ask: could the SM tell a boy that a mb is too advanced/too difficult for him and deny him access to it? My view: That's possible, but I am not sure that I would absolutely deny. Rather, it is an opportunity to talk with the scout about his interest in the badge, why he wants to take it now, and perhaps recommending that he wait, but I can't think of a case where I would deny, if the scout were interested.

 

you ask: What about telling a boy who is progressing very slowly through the ranks that he needs to work on rank adv... My view: I think that would be elevating rank advancement to an aim rather than a method. Based on this scenario, I assume that the scout isn't interested in collecting awards with the minimum possible effort. If the scout wants to learn a new topic, I wouldn't deny him that opportunity because he wasn't interested in advancement.

 

you ask: How about if a boy has a bunch of partials and wants to start new mbs? My view: When the boy brings a new blue card to you for approval to start on another MB, it provides an opportunity for a short discussion where you can ask about all of those other MB's that he started. Depending on the reply, perhaps you suggest that you would like to see him finish some of those other ones before he starts another one - as a recommendation rather than an absolute. Perhaps you find that he lost interest in the topics of those other badges. Perhaps he needs a pep talk to get motivated on those others. I view not completing a MB as similar to not getting Eagle - neither is inconsistent with the aims of scouting.

 

I wexpect that it would be a rare situation where a SM should not approve a MB request. From what firecracker described, that may well be a situation where it is warranted, but is a step not to be taken lightly, and the adult leaders would benefit from discussing this first, so they are all on the same page.

 

 

[Venividi 35]

Firecrafter,

 

You have received a lot of good advice from others on why they discourage or limit relatives from signing off on a scout. Most of the time, adults hold their relatives to appropriate standards. Sometimes, you encounter those that know how to game the system,and do so. Your troop adults do not need to continue to enable the situation. And the situation is being enabled, because the troop continues to permit it by continuing to approve starting on new MB's that you permit the scout to complete with counsellors in which you have no confidence.

 

Fscouter recommends reporting the MB counsellor to the district. That is appropriate, but if you believe the quality of their counseling does not meet your standards, there is no reason to continue to send your scouts to that counsellor, whether or not the council drops the him/her. Council personnel do not know the people; you and your troop committee do - so don't push the responsibility to the district. From a coucil perspective, it is one persons word against another, and frankly, I doubt that they have time enough for this to get high enough on their priority list to investigate. Rather, give the scout the name of the counsellor that you want him to use. In the situation you describe, perhaps the scout says that he wants to do it with his dad/uncle/aunt, whomever. A tactful response would be that you want him to have the experience of working with a number of different adults, and he already has completed a MB with dad/uncle/aunt. Given your description, perhaps the scout will come back with dads signature as MB counsellor anyway. The proper response to such a situation would be that the SM advises the scout that he cannot approve his next rank advancement because he has shown he is not trustworthy, and has to demonstrate improvement before he is ready for advancement.

 

A couple of additional comments:

It is hard to deal with such situations, and most people will choose to allow it to continue rather than deal with it. This is as true for the SM as well as everyone else, so let the SM know that you and the other parents support him/her. And look for specific ways that you and others can support the SM rather than a high level statement that you support HIM/HER doing the unpleasant task. I have been in your SM's shoes in similar situations, and you are right, it is wearying to constantly be in conflict with a family about their son. It means a lot when you know that you aren't expected to address the conflict alone.

 

All the other scouts know what is going on. They won't say anything, but they are watching, and will know when adults saying that they expect scouts to live to the scout oath and law, but that when push comes to shove, the adults give the rewards to undeserving scouts because they have pushy parents. They can see if the adults really stand up for what they believe in.

 

You say: We've always been told A Scout can choose any MB counselor in his district. Response: I don't have the MB process in front of me, but I don't think that is correct. Check the SM handbook, or the MB cousellor pamphlet. I think this is covered in one of those places.

 

You say: I've honestly never dealt with people like this in Scouting.

Response: I am not surprised. When I was SM and had a similar situation where a set of parents were more interested in their son being given rank advancements than they were in him actually benefitting internally, I made the mistake of approving the scout for star, even though I didn't think he exhibited being helpful, courteous, kind, etc. In his SM conference, I advised him on what he needed to do better next time. When he returned for a SM conference for another rank advancement, it was apparent from the conversation that the message he received was that he had done good enough, and expressed surprise that more was expected. And this was despite several times that I took the scout aside for conversations along the way. And his mother was extremely upset and let me know.

 

Good Luck - stand up for values and you will be respected. We want our sons to learn to that, which is why we have them in scouts. Even though it is hard, we as adults have to be a role model of how we would want the scouts to behave in such a circumstance. Imagine what you would advise a Patrol Leader to do if he had a patrol member that was not doing his share of the camp chores.

 

Its never too late to change - we adults have learning curves too.

[Beavah 205]

I think our SM has had so many conflicts with this family that he is pretty weary. They push the envelope on EVERYTHING. As I stated, the boy doesn't participate (doesn't camp or even come to meetings) but the parents fight like mad if anyone questions his behavior or actions. Problem is, the parents have no standards, so it's pretty hard to communicate what the boy needs to do. And for the record, they have been told, many, many times.

 

Sometimes it's OK to fire a customer, eh? Yah got people consumin' far more than their fair share of volunteer time and energy, and who in the process are settin' a bad example for the other kids - how to "cheat" advancement while takin' up people's time.

 

Time to have the sit down and the exit interview. Participating in a scouting program is a privilege based on the generosity of others. It is not a right. Your adult leaders' time and energy is better spent doing a good job for the boys and families who care.

 

[firecrafter 10]

Thanks for the sage advice! Sometimes I feel like I'm second guessing myself. It sure helps to hear everyones thoughts on these things!

firecrafter