drakmund

gwd-scouter, my troop has also had a constant turn over of scoutmasters. The one difference with my troop is that my troop has been around for over 50 years and we have lost a lot of the organizational structure over the years. When I joined the troop, they had dreadful Boards of Review where they hardly asked anything meaningful of the scouts. I talked to the committee and we have slowly made changes to become organized and boy lead. To try to solve the consistancy problem with the high turn over of scoutmasters, we started putting together a troop operations manual for the scoutmaster. This manual will then be handed from Scoutmaster to Scoutmaster.

Most of what we have in the manual is directly from BSA, and the rest is a collection of things like sample permission slips, court of honor ceremony, etc.

OldGreyEagle & FScouter,

If you read pargolf44067's post, he has an adult appointed unit and he wants to transition to a boy elected troop. We all know from the multiple posts here that the best way is for the boys to elect but pargolf44067 was asking for help to transition. He didn't want to make the dramatic switch but rather cross over gently. If that means they screen scouts (Committee or Scoutmasters) a couple times, and later move to a full election then I would be all for it. The point of the last couple posts was to help give him a process to transition to the "offical BSA" process.

I have been transitioning things in my own troop to improve things and move toward a better program and unit. The thing that I have found is that changes don't occur instantly and when people try they cause a lot more problems.

As for bad SPLs, it would depend on the unit and the situation. It is the adults responsibility to teach leadership by example and through Junior Leader Training but if the troop is in danger of losing members or folding the adults of the troop probably should step in.

If you are moving to a hybrid (election/appointed) process like you are suggesting pargolf44067 then I would ask the scouts to apply for the positions they want then screen them through the committee. You might find that the scouts you want would rather have a different position.

When it comes to "credit" for being in a position, my troop makes that the decision of the Scoutmaster only. Junior Leader Training is the responsibility of the Scoutmaster so when someone wants to be "signed off" for any leadership requirement in our troop they must talk to the Scoutmaster and review what they have done for their position. This doesn't stop scouts from getting into a position and doing nothing, but if they want "credit" they have to prove their leadership ability.

The big question with this scout is: Was he a life scout for 6 months before he left? Also, did he serve in a leadership position for those 6 months?

mrprarar, you are definitely in a tough position but I would show the mother these 2 requirements and any other requirements the scout hasn't completed and explain to her that he can not complete them within the time given before his 18th birthday.

Tell her those requirements were in his book well before they left and didn't change. As a Life Scout he should have known what he needed to complete his Eagle rank (listed in his book).

Even if he had paid dues the requirement states being "active" and providing "leadership" which means he needed to be at troop meetings and participating. If she still has a problem with this she can talk to the Unit Commissioner or even the District Executive, but you can't change the requirements as listed by the BSA.

Again, it is a tough situation dealing with a furious parent and I have been in similar situations. I wish you the best in dealing with this.

There are several reasons for saying "no" in many situations. A couple examples where troop leadership has said "no" for rank advancement:

- The scout was the troop bully, pushing around and intimidating other scouts. He was denied his Eagle because of the "scout spirit" requirement.

- A scout going for Star rank was causing problems at scout camp, he barrowed another scouts fishing gear without asking and that scout didn't have his gear for class. The scout also refused to do anything adults asked of him and even went fishing(instead of going to waiter duty) while the rest of the troop was cleaning the campsite. He was told "no" and he would have to prove himself over the next couple months to get Star.

- First year scouts going before the board having forgotten everything they learned about scout skills. The questions asked were "why? how would you use? etc?" They were directed to the troop guide who did a review with them and later passed the board the next month.

Here is a link to a website about Leadership Development. I read thru the page and it has a lot of useful information that you could use for your course.

http://www.impactfactory.com/gate/leadership_skills_training/freegate_1159-9103-25758.html

Long Haul,

packsaddle is correct on my intent. There are 2 adult leaders in my district that have about 12-14 adult knots plus their Wood Badge beads, plus several other layers of awards and the problem I keep seeing is adults that want titles, positions above others, recognitions and other awards. In some cases I've seen adults promote themselves to get a position then they don't do the job or they make a big deal that they are "in charge." This kind of example isn't the example I would want for my scouts. I want them to earn their awards and be proud of what they (the scouts) acheive, not what some adult does. This is the "Boy" Scout program not the "Adult" Scout program.

As for the Eagle Badge, I think I'll switch to using the medal instead but my problem is with the knot. As an Eagle, I want to represent what I want my scouts should be but the knot is unfamiliar to most scouts and parents.

FScouter, the point of cutting corners on Totin Chip is if they do something minor like forgetting to cut away. The corner gets taken off and they have a sit down chat with an adult or Troop Guide about what they did wrong. Some troops will remove Totin Chip for any offense and make them re-learn but that is up to the troop to decide.

I've been the New Scout Patrol ASM for the last several years, and I'm also a Scout Camp Scout Skills director. The first year program I run for the troop I start off with the scout rank requirements then the following meeting I go over 2 things Camping Basics and Totin Chip.

The reason I teach them Totin Chip so early is that I know that most parents give them a pocket knife when they join scouts. Once they are taught Totin Chip they should be given a Totin Chip card which they sign on the back. If they miss use their knife or any woods tools you are supposed to cut a corner off their card. Once all 4 corners are cut they lose their Totin Chip and must retest. In a serious case they may lose their Totin Chip right away without any corners being cut.

As for when, I would test them before so they know the rules for camp.(This message has been edited by drakmund)

I have always had trouble with adult awards, on the one hand they show a Scoutmaster or leader has had a lot of training or has work with his unit for several years on the other I've seen adults decorated like military generals with rows and rows of adult knots. Some of these leaders where their awards all the time while others reserve them for special occasions. As an adult leader I don't wear any knots or other items I've earned because I want to focus on the scouts and their awards, not mine.

The ONLY patch or medal I make a point to wear is the Eagle Scout patch. I've had a debate with this patch as well over the rules saying you should wear the knot as an adult. I have found that almost no one outside of scouting and very few within scouting actually knows the adult eagle knot. When a parent or scout sees the eagle patch, they immediately recognize it and know what it represents. I look at it from the point of view that as an Eagle, I want them to see that they too can be an Eagle Scout if they work hard and stick to the Scout Oath and Law.

Service Stars, Adult Knots, Medals, etc I don't have much use for or would want to wear but the eagle patch is very personal to me and regardless of the rules I do see the use of an adult wearing the eagle patch rather then the knot. As for the cloth badge and the medal, they both represent the eagle scout award, so I don't see the difference OAEagleDude.

anarchist,

I know of several scouts troops in my area that put requirements on positions like being a certain rank or even holding a previous leadership position. In order to be an SPL in some troops you must have served as an ASPL and the same for SPL to JASM. Depending on your troop it might be something to consider so that they get their training as an ASPL before they can become an SPL and finally a JASM. Hopefully you have more then one ASPL so the scouts can elect the ASPL that is doing the best job in their minds to SPL. For my troop this wouldn't work since we barely have 2 patrols, 1 ASPL, and the SPL. I'm hoping that in the future we will grow large enough to have multiple ASPLs.

As for who fires them, we do a six month review for our one year positions. The SPL and ASPL review the PLs and other positions. If they are doing a good job then they stay in their position for another 6 months otherwise if someone isn't doing their job the SPL and ASPL can call for a new election for that position instead of waiting for the full year to be complete. As for the SPL/ASPL positions, they are reviewed by the committee.

Eagle76, sorry about the wording on planning. We do let the scouts choose the locations they want to go to but we usually put the burden of finding new places and making reservations with place on the Committee. What I meant was that the scouts need to make a broad year or even two year plan about what they want to do and where they want to go, the committee needs to then approve it and help the scoutmasters make arrangements. As they get closer to time the planning then needs to become more detailed (6 months out) till they get down to the 3 month planning which should be the fine details like menus, duty rosters, etc.

The only problem would be if the scouts start picking the same places, mainly because they don't know of other places they can go to. My troop got stuck in a rut for about 2 years, going to the same places over and over till the adults step'd in an gave the scouts a choice of places they could go to (all of them new locations). We still let them decide as long as it was some place new.

When it comes to troop leaders, there are some positions that should be appointed or interviewed for the job but the appointing and interviewing should be done by the youth leadership not adults.

In an ideal unit the SPL is elected and then he chooses his ASPL(s). The Patrols then elect their Patrol Leaders and the PLs choose thier assistants. As for the other positions like Quartermaster, Scribe, Librarian, etc. The SPL and ASPL should appoint or interview scout candidates that want the positions. This means that those positions are being filled by scouts the SPL and ASPL have confidence in. No were in the election process does an adult determine what jobs a scout should have or who should fill a paticular position.

Everything and anything (troop newsletter, troop website, permission slips, parents meetings, etc. etc.) The biggest problem is making sure the parent has the information and that if you give it to a scout it doesn't always make it to the parent.

Since my troop is small we only let former SPLs become JASMs.

My suggestion, bring it up to the full Committee and have the Committee setup the guidelines for the boards. Define the process, what is expected of the scout at each rank, maybe a list of sample questions for each rank, max/min length of time for a board. When I was put in-charge of the boards for my troop the first thing I did was put in place the guidelines with the support of the committee. Having them makes sure the boards are fair, there is documentation for what is acceptable and not, and it makes for a good training tool for new Board of Review members to maintain consistancy.

Ok, there are several ways to get to a Boy-led Patrol-Method troop but the first step has to be with the adults. Discuss the situation with the Committee and the Scoutmasters. They need to take a hard look at what they are doing vs. what the scouts should be doing. The committee is a support tool for the scoutmasters to help with finance, safety, equipment, recruiting, etc. The Scoutmasters are the guides. They help teach and guide scouts to become effective leaders and outstanding citizens. They need to be able to look at the situation and stand back and watch. Many times the scouts will fail at what they are doing but if you don't give them the chance they won't learn. After they fail you might step in and teach them what they did wrong but as long as they are doing things safely, failure can teach them better then success.

The next step is the patrols themselves. The Scoutmaster needs to define the patrols and make the seperate by having them make patrol flags, have patrol meetings, having some patrol outings rather then all troop outings, create patrol spirit through competition. In my troop's case we decided we wanted to divide the patrols by age and rank rather then have mixed patrols. This created the situation where we had 3 patrols (first years/experienced scouts/older scouts).

Some troops like to have mixed patrols using the older scouts for all the leadership. For my troop having the first years in their own patrol gave them the chance to figure out how to setup a tent, lash a tower, etc instead of an older patrol leader coming over and doing it for them. If they got stuck the Troop Guide is always there to teach them. The experienced scouts mostly focus on merit badges and learning leadership. The older scouts (mainly former boy leaders of the troop) were put into a Venture patrol where they could plan their activities while still remaining in the troop. Not every troop goes for this configuration so you will have to figure out what works best for your troop. When it came to competitions between patrols we just the difficulty level for each group at appropriate levels. Example first aid competition: (first years - skills questions, exp scouts - fa merit badge, older scouts - emergency prep mb)

After defining the patrols, the next step is leadership and planning. All of the office positions need to go through a troop junior leader training. The patrol leaders, ASPL, SPL, Quartermaster, Scribe, Librarian, etc, etc, need to learn what their jobs are and what is expected of them. They also need to learn to work together as a TEAM! The Junior Leader Training or JLT is the most important job of the Scoutmaster. While the Assistant Scoutmasters focus on helping the patrols and the program, the Scoutmaster should focus on his youth leadership. There are many JLT course outlines online and at scout shops, some are indoor classroom and some are weekend campouts.

Once everyone learns their jobs they need to do their jobs. One of the things my troop did was to make the policy that all leadership requirements (Star, Life, Eagle) where the scout has to serve a length of time in a position, can only be signed by the Scoutmaster after a review by the SPL and ASPL. This put an end to scouts signing up to being the Librarian and not doing anything but wear the patch for the length of time.

Plan, Plan, Plan. The leadership group should then create a one year plan for the entire year. They should write in "canoe trip" or "camping trip" etc and put them on the calendar for the weekends they want to do them. The Committee can then take the calendar and find camping locations, make arrangements and reservations, etc. Monthly the leadership group then looks at the upcoming 3 and 6 months. The first 3 Months should be the fine details like menu planning, duty rosters, etc. The Second 3 Months are making final calendar changes and arranging counselors.

Finally and I quote from Greying Beaver

SM Position #1: Standing in the background, hands in pockets, eyes on the action, and telling the SPL what he is doing good (often!) and where the SPL could be doing better.

SM Position #2: Sitting down in a chair, holding coffee cup, eyes on the action, etc.

When the new Scoutmaster took over we decided we needed to reorganize the patrols. Anyone below first class was put in the new scout patrol. First Class, Star and even one Life Scout below the age of 14 were put in the Experienced Scout patrol. All of the other scouts above age 14 were put into a Venture patrol.

Breaking the group into sections rather then mixed patrols actually worked out better for our troop. The first year scouts had the freedom of trying to figure things out instead of an older scout showing them the first time. The experienced scouts could work on badges that they needed or wanted to do rather then being bored with the "book work" eagle badges.

The Venture Patrol (while still being required to help lead and teach now and then) could plan activities they wanted to do like whitewater canoeing, an archery free-shoot, backpacking, etc.

The district my troop is in is very active so we have ended up with the unusual situation that most of our Venture Patrol has earned their Eagles at ages 15 and 16, and the experienced patrol is now taking over most of the leadership positions except for the SPL position.

When it comes to planning activities we have a lot of "troop" activities and we have several "patrol" activities. The first year patrol has a couple pre-planned skills campouts which are run by the Troop Guide with the help of the First Year's ASM. The experienced scouts have activities usually related to the Merit Badges they are working on. The Ventures have their own high adventure activities that they plan and run.

Now I agree with several of the posts about Venture Crews being more harm then good for most scout troops since they tend to pull away older scouts. A Venture Patrol on the other hand can work to help keep scouts in but High School, Girls, Sports Teams, etc are still going to pull some scouts away no matter what you do.

The only question I have when it comes to Venture Patrols is what awards are they allowed to earn. Right now we are just treating them as a high-adventure group, but are they allowed to earn for example the "Ranger" award? I've sent an email to my District Exec asking him about this.