Akaluga

I have been unable to send you the resulting MP3 file in a personal email. I get a message:

24.248.74.35 does not like recipient.

Remote host said: 550 Mailbox unavailable or access denied - Giving up.

Please let me know how to send you this file (it is a little over 5 Meg zipped up).

Another CD that you may want to purchase is "Songs of the Buckeye Council Camps" which is available at http://www.tuscazoar.org/PROD04.htm. It does not contain Ging Gang Gooli, but it does have lots of other great songs.

I finally found Ging Gang Gooli on the web, but it is in Real Audio (RAM) format rather than an MP3 or WAV.

The link is

http://www.chsscout.net/rescenter/songs/index.shtml

I have converted this to a wav and mp3 file which I will send you in a personal email.

How many Microsoft technicians does it take to change a light bulb?

None, Bill Gates just redefines darkness as the standard.

Maybe National can learn something by this.

David,

Thanks for the info. I didn't make any of the remarks in the quotes I used, I just supplied them to spark some of this conversation. I personally believe that American Indian Lore definately has a place in scouting, I just want to make sure that the boys in our OA lodge do it properly. In fact, I just joined the American Indian Scouting Association, which has an annual meeting between both boy scouts and girl scouts each year, that is hosted by one of the various native nations. Next year the host will be the Comanche Nation.

Thanks again for all the posts.

Thanks for all the responses so far - this has been great input. To clarify, yes about 1/32 Cherokee. And I will post results when completed. Thanks again, and keep all input coming as this will be a multi-month project.

Absolutley, and I'm happy to include that perspective, just that my current list of questions doesn't really deal with that much. Here is what I was considering, if you can think of others that are particularily relevant, I'm all ears.

1. Do you prefer to be called Native American or American Indian?

2. Do you feel good or insulted when you see a non-Indian portraying an Indian, even if their intentions are honorable?

3. What is the Significance of War Bonnets and should Boy Scouts be using them? What about imitation Eagle feathers?

4. What things do most Americans do that offend you or your people the most?

5. What is the most difficult thing that American Indians face today?

6. What can boy scouts do to learn more about your Tribal Culture?

7. What regalia are appropriate for others to wear?

8. Do certain colors mean different things i.e. face painting or outfit colors?

9. What can the Boy Scouts do to mitigate the sensitivity that Native Americans have toward the use/abuse of their culture?

10. What specific things can scouts do to help native peoples?

I would prefer to interview those who are registered with their respective tribe, so whatever the individual tribal requirements are. I know that for some this amount is minimal (such as the Cherokee who only require 1/16), and others it must be 1/4. I would also prefer to interview those who are active with their tribe, not just someone who happens to be 1/2 Indian but lacks the cultural perspective.

Are there any American Indian Scouters out there willing to be interviewed on this topic for inclusion in my manual?

Thanks in advance.

Interesting topic, as this has been a pet peeve of mine since attending a training at Philmont several years ago. Over 3/4 of the adults in attendance were clearly over weight and out of shape! At the time, I had just broken my knee and was unable to walk very far myself, but I was determined not to become another "well-rounded" scouter. I took up cycling, doing several century (100 mile) rides and returned to Philmont a year later with my son to do a trek. Never-the-less, my entire family struggles with weight, so I can empathize with anyone who has a weight problem. But I do agree that adult leaders need to set an example for living up to the scout oath and law, and that includes being "physically strong". We may not all look like Hollywood models, but we should be able to keep up with the boys on any activity we participate in. Improper thoughts are easy to hide; a flabby body is harder to conceal.

Here are two:

http://www.bsatroop469.org/

http://www.cadvisor.com/akaluga

To answer Bob White, no I do not think that scouts are trying to dishonor Native Americans, but I do think they may be doing unintentionally. wingnut said that it's time that American Indians get over it. The problem is that white America has taken absolutely everything from the Indian - their land, their freedoms, their religions, their languages, and today we are often using their culture without much regard for it. Do you realize that it wasn't until Jimmy Carter became president that Indians won back their right to speak in their own languages and practice their own religions?

Our local OA lodge is in fact "part of the problem". Last summer I attended a Pre-Ordeal ceremony at summer camp that almost made me want to cry. The boys were beating on a plastic trash can for a drum. They walked in barefoot, wearing loin clothes without boxers underneath. The war bonnets had multi-colored fluffs on the dyed imitation eagle feathers, and they stood there with their arms crossed. Rather than just critisize however, I decided to become part of the solution. As a result, I am now the ceremonies team advisor for our chapter. I am in the process of writing a 'How To' manual for our lodge. I am conducting interviews and inviting local elders to come speak to our scouts.

Cubmaster3947 asked about teaching us to do it right. I have taken this upon myself as a Wood Badge ticket item (which was part of the reason for starting this thread - to gather additional information and perspectives). I believe that there is a right way to do it, and it is not just to be politically correct. It's because it is the right thing to do. Please continue to post your thoughts as this is great background material for my research.

Makes it sound like there isn't a problem. Is it only sports teams using Indians as mascots that are a problem then? What about these quotes from the stereotype discussion board I mentioned previously?

"I have to agree on the fact that the way the Boy Scouts and the Boy Scout program portrays many native american customs, dress, dance regalia, and ceremonial dances is VERY Wrong. I am half Plains Cree from Rocky Boy Montana, and have been a singer and dancer for more than ten years. I was taught traditionally by my father and grandfather and many uncles over the years as to what the proper mannerisms and customs were pertaining to many native cultures and ceremonies, and i think that the Boy Scouts are indeed being taught to deface a culture by the actions that they take."

"I agree, there is no purpose - other than the subliminal message that it's okay to steal whatever we (mainstream society) like from the American Indian culture and make it our own. We've been doing this for hundreds of years. We (mainstream society) are hell-bent to finish the extermination policy (genocide) we began when we first arrived and lied to them about wanting to be their "friends. A naming ceremony is very sacred, and the sacred ceremony is rarely performed for non-Indians. It is certainly NOT performed for entertainment. It certainly should NOT be performed by the Boy Scouts. It trivializes and mocks the various American Indian cultures."

"From what I've seen and heard, I find the entire organization to be a mockery of something sacred and highly offensive. It begins with the history of the OA. It was based on fictional stories (Last of the Mohicans and Song of Hiawatha), and the sole purpose was to keep young boys interested in scouting -- to keep the numbers up for financial gain of the organization."

"Now i understand that the boyscouts were trying to "Honor"us? Well i still think that the boy scouts had no right or business doing what they did. I also understand that they did it out of pure ignorance. The problem also lies that these boyscouts were exposed to stereotypes. The scoutleader should ask a Native American (elder) for permission to perform these ceremonies."

Would it be OK for native American's to dress up as boy scouts?

There is a great discussion forum on scouting's use/abuse of American Indian themes at

http://drumhop.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=BSA

I encourage anyone interested in this to read through all of the postings there. Most of the discussion revolves around the Order of the Arrow, and how the BSA inaccurately portrays Native Americans, furthering the image of the "Stereotypical Indian".

One argument in favor of the BSA using Native American themes is that one of BSA's founders, Ohiyesa (Charles Eastman), was a Santee Sioux that gave scouting much of it's early Indian traditions.

I am interested in other scouter's thoughts on this topic and what you feel we can do to mitigate this problem. I certainly don't condone "cultural piracy", but like many long time scouters would like to find a way to keep the use of American Indian traditions alive in the scouting organization without offending anyone. This goes far beyond not wearing cheap and inappropriate regalia, but involves a true understanding of the individual cultures that are portrayed. Any thoughts?

I have personally recorded a version of "Ging Gang Gooli" on my Native American Flute (NAF) that I can make available to you. I also have NAF recordings of:

- OA Song

- Back to Gilwell

- America, America

- Johnny Appleseed Grace

- Philmont Hymn

- On My Honor

- Scout Vespers

The slower inspirational songs like America, On My Honor, and Vespers sound better on a Native American Flute than Ging Gang Gooli does, but you are welcome to it if you want it.