DeLukas

(It's nice to see everyone on this forum agree and not fighting )

I think it's fair to say some of the rules in place are just stupid. However, getting people in power to change is always difficult. Gladly, I know most parents become powerful crusaders for small causes when it their child is affected. Good Luck.

Another sad part of all this is that people think this country (the USA) was found on the Christian religion. That is just plain wrong. The fore fathers thought religion should nothing have nothing to do with the goverment of this land. Some did believe in Christianity, some where Deist, others out right atheist.

The First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

Article VI, Section 3

...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Washington:

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness"

"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists...." [George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical. "[George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

Adams:

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.- the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11

The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.

Thomas Jefferson:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

James Madison:

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution. -- Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

Benjamin Franklin:

...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all. From The Age of Reason, pp. 89

Religion should never enter public school, or any other governmental.

(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

Everyone on this tread has acted in a trollish manner. In my experience the biggest trolls call others troll first.

Everyone Back To Your Bridges.

Which Values?

That they try to teach a value system based of the teachings of the Bible? Since I joined my church's scout troop.

That they teach people to distance one self from and hate people who do not hold the same religous views as themselves?

About the time this tread started.

But since hate is not a value i have been ignoring your question(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

Losing the argument means calling people names and getting out the crayons, doesn't it?

Losing would imply there is some way of winning.

There isn't. There are two conflicting view points and both sides feel passionately about the issue. There is no middle ground and even if there was neither side would be willing to give.

As for the crayons . . . a picture says a thousand words.

"Reasonable discourse is harder, pal."

"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

Just for fun grief linkage: http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=1&id=2410

Edit: again, Grammar is Hard(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

Rooster7,

Your last response was intelligently and politely stated. I felt your original argument was poorly presented and slightly vindictive. Upon further review, my opinion of you has gone up several notches.

Yea, I tend to start off a little too harsh on my first post on a topic like this.

Regardless, I am in strong disagreement with your stance.

Just as I do with yours.

BSA was created as a character building organization. It's founders, and in all likeliness a vast majority of its members, feel that a faith in God is extremely vital to developing and maintaining that character. You may disagree.

Why thank you, I think I will. I have grown up in a college community (and that is where my troop was based) where I have meet too many wonderful and good people to base my judgment of them off religion alone. In my view, character is need to have faith in God, not the other way around.

But, as an Eagle Scout, you should not be surprised when Scouters and Scouts are dismayed and put off by your stance. And, please remember, BSA is a private organization. The government did not create us. Our charter is not to serve all of America's citizens. Volunteers with strong principles created BSA. The majority may not always be right, but in this case, I am certain that they are.

Im not surprised, because if it where not so this would a non-issue. I am certain the majority is very much in the wrong.

Do not take this as an insult...only an observation. For some reason, I get the impression that you are very young, perhaps 19 or 20, like Mr. Lambert. If so, that doesn't take away anything from your opinion. I have a son that age and I respect his views. However, if you are that age, let me suggest that you hang around some older guys as a fellow Scouter and truly get to know them. You may find that we're not as legalistic as you have suggested. Furthermore, I discovered that when you have children of your own, those old self-righteous farts suddenly become a lot wiser (not that I'm one of them). I guess what I'm trying to say is - Keep an open mind to more than just contemporary wisdom. Sometimes the things we rebel against are the very things we should be embracing. This is what I have found to be true in life.

I am of the age you speak.

I do hang around them, and sometimes learn from them (my father is one of them, and I am fairly sure a link to this thread will be emailed to him and I will have a message on my phone when i get home). However, there are some views they (and you) hold that are dated and wrong. Yes, sometimes things we rebel against are things we should embrace. However, sometimes we try to change things that should be changed. Sometimes the old fear change as it upsets the world they have become comfortable in.

Well, I feel we are at an impasse. It seems that all that can be stated has been and we are repeating ourselves. So, till the next time.

The BSA will only exist if they can believe in God

The BSA does not believe in anything it is an organization of people who believe in things. No one said, The Boy Scouts cant believe in God. They are simply asking why someone has to believe in God.

That was a huge leap. So basically, you're saying that BSA's "belief in God" requirement is really some sort of covert policy for Christians?

Thats a great conspiracy theory. It would make a great story, but no, such an idea is silly. What I was saying is, if we accept a belief in any higher power, why do we not accept belief in no higher power.

As for the Judeo-Christian value system, its just fine. Its great that we try to teach such a value system to others. However, that system does NOT require a belief in God to follow it. The religion does, the value system does not.

The BSA "belief in God" requirement exists. BSA has maintained its stance for decades. It's not going to change. Get over it.

That does not make it right, nor mean people should not continue to fight to change it as long as they work within the system.

Never said you weren't, unless you're trying to tell me that you have no sins and/or have no desire to be repentant.

That would be very hard for me to claim after stating, We are flawed human beings. This, in context and as an admission, represents both acceptance of wrong doing and regret of such actions.

Judging by this comment and others, it is obvious to me that you like to take people's words and twist them to your advantage. Let me warn you, the posters on this board are pretty bright and they're not going to fall prey to those kinds of silly games.

You seem to like to do the same. I have no doubt that they are bright and intelligent. Many (if not most) people in scouting are. However, if you feel that simply because you are on the majority side makes your right, then you are dead wrong.

Edit: Because Grammar Is Hard

(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

So, when Mr. Lambert or Mr. Kelly demeans a fundamental principle of Scouting - "Duty to God", I doubt that they can truly call themselves Eagle Scouts. They have as much claim to that honor, as a non-repentant Christian has for salvation.

You make the assumption that I am not a Christian.

It has been a long time since I got to be part of an internet flame war.

However, there are always rules, regulations, procedures, by-laws, etc. everywhere and in everything.

And not all of them are good or just.

I'm a real Eagle Scout. For me, it is a big deal.

Good for you. Want a cookie?

You're not suggesting that lying is ok, are you?

Oh, you think Im stupid and will fall into your trap. You want me to say, No lying is wrong. Then you say, Well he lied every time he said the oath. We will handle that in just a moment.

Are you implying Mr. Lambert is simply making a mistake, error in judgement, or whatever? We're not talking about a slip-up here.

No. I am saying he has what the BSA bigwigs and fanbois would consider a flaw.

I am sorry if you have misunderstood the nature of the program. When did you realize that a Scout was supposed to be Reverent?

Mr. Webster says:

Main Entry: reverent

Pronunciation: 'rev-r&nt, 're-v&-; 're-v&rnt

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin reverent-, reverens, present participle of revereri

Date: 14th century

: expressing or characterized by reverence : WORSHIPFUL

- reverently adverb

Main Entry: 1reverence

Pronunciation: 'rev-r&n(t)s, 're-v&-; 're-v&rn(t)s

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 : honor or respect felt or shown : DEFERENCE; especially : profound adoring awed respect

2 : a gesture of respect (as a bow)

3 : the state of being revered

4 : one held in reverence -- used as a title for a clergyman

I dont see the word God in there. Plus, in a world where we are accepting of people of different faiths and ideas its time to update some wording anyway. Unless you are going to say the Boy Scouts should be a Christian only organization.

During my years in scouting I came to hate most troop leaders. Why might you ask?

Well things like this event and ideas shown in this thread are why. Most troop leaders care more about the letter of the law and care nothing for the boys. The leaders forget that they are there to help and teach the boys. Scouting should be about the boys, not the leaders and not the by-laws. To many scout leaders are the type of people who should never be given power over other people. They are close minded holier then thou authoritarians who are more concerned that their commands are followed then if the boys are having fun and learning in a safe environment. Sure they come in with good intentions, but most show their true colors under pressure.

So he does not believe in a higher power . . . big deal. Here is something from a real Eagle Scout and not leader who pretends to be a boy scout. Every scout breaks the oath. Every scout fails in one way or another. We are flawed human beings. If not believing in a god is all this guy did he is a better scout then most and surely better then all the moron leaders who think they are scouts.

There are few enough eagle scouts, and surely few enough who come back to teach other scouts. Every one of them is to be valued. He has a flaw, great, we all do. So to all you close minded holier then thou authoritarian wood badge wannabe scouts, get bent. That goes double for the person who ask how this guy got eagle in the first place.

John Lowell Kelly

Eagle Scout

Baton Rouge, LA