davlafont

That could be your problem. You think that, by allocating boys on your own, the odds are in your favor of getting the intended results.

On the contrary, I don't want to allocate them because I'm quite sure I'll get it wrong. But they've boy-led themselves to a state where the eldest three of our seven patrols are not functioning as patrols and have members that are either becoming disillusioned or are turning inward to focus on their own successes/achievements. I suspect they don't know, or worse don't think they're "allowed" to switch from one patrol to another.

Having now read through a few other threads on this topic, I see that this is an age-old discussion (pardon the pun) with valid opposing opinions. I find myself drawn to an "ask the boys" approach. I certainly have a place to start: my one-scout patrol.

Great discussion. I have been wrestling with this topic recently and came to this forum to do some research. Here's where we're at:

Our patrols mostly align with the age cohorts of the successive waves of WEBELOS (I won't go so far as to say we've had a NSP program; that might be overstating things a bit). For reasons that involve school demands, attrition, and general motivation, our SPLs have tended to be 14 and 15 years old going back as far as 2008. Unfortunately, our older scouts have tended to to either drift off or have sometimes become a nuisance by not giving the SPL all the support--and I daresay respect--he deserves and depends on. We do have Eagle Scouts and they are helpful, but they also show up sporadically.

Many factors contribute to this state of affairs, including adult complacency. But I think a fundamental cause of our "ills" is the age-based patrols. As noted by others here, if the older boys are not in charge of other boys it's hard to keep them engaged. Librarian and Scribe are both important positions worthy of leadership credit, but that falls on deaf ears with our 15-, 16-, and 17-year olds. The younger patrols (we have three that are entirely sub-First Class) don't get the benefit of being led by an experienced PL. They make mistakes--which is fine--but they end up getting frustrated because it feels like they are figuring it out on their own. We've had Troop Guides assigned, but for some reason they have tended to be spotty in their attendance or have been focused on other goals (i.e. attaining Eagle Scout). I feel like there's not the same "sense of ownership" with a Troop Guide as there is with a PL.

Right now we have a two Eagle Scouts aging out. They leave behind the sole remaining member of their patrol who is only 15 (don't ask why there has been a three-scout patrol because I'm not sure myself). Since we have to find a new patrol for that sole scout, I think it may be a good time to mix things up more broadly (I can't bring myself to describe it as tossing the salad because that actually has an R-rated meaning too.)

Our (now) most senior patrol has two 16- and two 17-year olds, two of which are former SPLs and two of which are less than helpful, plus a 15-year old that has no allegiance to the patrol and is always helping out as Troop Guide and Instructor and virtually anything else that needs doing. Historically he never had a chance of being elected PL of original patrol and I guess it's never dawned on anyone--adults included--that he should/could switch to another patrol.

We have two patrols of 14- and 15-year olds and neither of them are healthy from a patrol identity perspective. Neither is a group of buddies per se and both have poor attendance.

Below these are the three younger patrols, one in its second year (all Second Class and closing in on First) and two first year patrols. And we're staring down the barrel of a batch of about a dozen WEBELOS. The junior patrols have done what they can to learn the ropes and I am happy with the motivation and sense of identity among them. But I feel like they would thrive and retain their numbers over time if they had older scouts integrated into their patrols, playing the mentor role that is the Scouting way.

I could use suggestions on how we might do a mix up. I'm wary that letting the scouts elect/select and self-regulate might not result in the change we need. Left to their own devices they've evolved into our current state. However, I'm also loathe to direct and dictate how the boys should be organized. I'm thinking of having a Scoutmaster Conference with only the senior scouts and soliciting their recommendations. But I feel like I need to provide the catalyst like telling them their current patrols are now retired and they have to choose which of the junior patrols they want to join and lead. But just writing that out sounds wrong to me.

So that's why I came to this thread...

Anyone notice that BSA's video clip has one image of the shirt backward/reversed? It's the segment showing the shirt in rolled-sleeve mode. I only noticed because it suggests that there's a pocket on the right sleeve, but then the image changes to the long-sleeve mode and the pocket is gone. After that caught my eye, it was easy to see all the left-side patches on the right side, etc.

I too would like to know how the new uniform changes will trickle into other programs. As a Cub Scout leader, I'll stick to the current field uniform but I'd like to make the move to modern fabrics and functional design.

No hurry, but there ARE second- and third-order effects that need to be addressed. As a veteran of several US Army uniform changes (to include the current change of our service/dress uniform from green to blue), I know that the bugs won't get worked out overnight.

YIS,

Dave(This message has been edited by davlafont)

Our pack only had 40 entries: 30 scouts, 10 family. We use an electronic timer and software. Each car enters the track on lane 1, then shifts over to 2 then 3, so every cub sees his car run in three races in a row. Because of the size of the group, we were able to run three heats so every car took 9 runs. The software averages the times to produce results and can parse them in any number of ways.

We award first, second, and third for each den, AND Pack overall, AND Family division. We also have judges pick Best Color, Funniest Theme, Most Patriotic, etc. You guessed it... every scout is awarded something. I'm not a big fan of this method, but the kids seem to enjoy it and when called upon to judge I faithfully executed.

One lesson I learned for next year is that the software arranges the order of races by the car's number (which we input during registration). The scout's numbers were done in advance based on the roster somehow and started at a low number like 10. To differentiate the family division, we assigned numbers begining with 100 on up. Unfortunety, the software "alphabetizes" the numbers from left to right, not numerically. So Scout car #10 was followed by #100 and #101. All the family cars raced before the second scout did! In the future we will assign family cars numbers beginning with a 9 (90, 900, 901).

If we change the uniform in question from military to Law Enforcement, it may help guide our thinking/response. Would a unit scouter/visitor who is police officer be welcome at a unit event in his uniform? Sure. It helps to underscore the community service aspect of scouting. But would some obsevers (maybe parents) wonder why the cops are there? Possibly. Should Officer Jones be acting in an official scout leader capacity? Probably not, unless it's related to how the police operate, etc. (or how THEY benefit from the uniform method). Is it heinous that he couldn't devote the time to change? Not really.

Lisabob's original scenario paints a picture of a young man serving his country, home on leave or weekend pass, who is proud enough of his uniform that he doesn't rip it of his body the instant he is authorized to do so. Not all troops have that ethic. It's an influence that scouts could benefit from IMHO. It could spur questions from the scouts about military service. That's where the lines begin to blur; plenty of families do not expect their boys to be recruited by the Armed Forces when they attend a scout function. And when ever a service member appears in public in uniform, it IS a recruiting event whether the troop likes it or not. But back to the Police version of the scenario; the boys are just as likely to "recruited" by the force.

"I'll bet they don't wear Boy Scout uniforms to work!!

Eamonn."

You'll win that bet if the Scouter/Soldier is a young troop in the lower ranks. But a leader could pull it off. It shows that he is involved with the community "outside the fence" and is providing a positive role model for America's youth. Plus, all the cool patches and accoutrement will certainly stimulate some inquiries--in the Army at least. I think I'll try it some day!

So many great discussions in one thread... it's hard to decide which to add to!

I look forward to the opportunities I have to visit Ft. Benning so that I can stop into Commando Supply and Ranger Joe's. I'm still on active duty (for another 18 months and counting down quickly!) and there's one glaring exception to the statement that troops don't alter the uniform: the Army's black beret vs. the patrol cap. Especially at Ft. Benning, but at other locations too, there's a small rebellion taking place over the official headgear. It's almost not worth mentioning here except to note that when it does occur, the individual is violating an Army Regulation (again, apologies to Gunny) and can be disciplined. And they do it anyway.

The lesson to take from this (BSA) is it is better to create uniform items that make sense than ones which cause dissent.

The illustration in the handbook is pretty self explanatory, no? The planks are 1" x 4" x 24" and have four 2" x 2" x 4" strips underneath. Those could be screwed in place if you want to disassemble and reassemble later. Four holes, a length of rope that is cut to size and knotted in place. Voila!

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with 2" x 2" strips. The planks can be cut from a single 8' board. The remaining length can be cut into multiple 2" strips. Stack them (with wood glue) and screw them to the board with screws long enough to reach through both.

Good luck!

Thanks for all the responses.

My pack leaders all wear the BALOO patch on the right pocket. Below that they stack these additional training patches, which are almost "strips" in that they are only about an inch tall. At our B&G, I just noticed a third patch: water safety. It is definitely a council-wide habit because I met leaders from other packs in our council who have these as well.

My feeling is that it helps instill confidence in our cubs' parents that the pack leaders are not just winging it. (One could argue that by wearing non-BSA approved uniform items they are indeed winging it, but that's only known to those intimate with the program.) The more often the word Trained appears the better, I suppose.

Thanks folks. I suppose these are Council-created. The Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO) patch is about 2" x 3" and is multi-colored with the Baloo Bear and block lettering. My Pack leaders wear it on the right pocket. The other two are simple 1" x 3" tan strips with Black borders, worn stacked beneath the right pocket.

I will ask around in my council about the authority for these (tactfully).

I'm putting together my first Scouter uniform now that I have volunteered as Asst. Den Leader. I have earned patches for Risk Zone training and Youth Protection training and will attend BALOO next month.

I thought I knew where these items go because my Pack leaders all seem to have them in the same place. But I just attended New Leader Essentials and Leader Specific training with Scouters from across our Council and I've seen several different locations for these patches. I purchased a copy of the BSA Insignia Guide (I have always had my own copy of Army Regulation 670-1, so the Insignia Guide is one of the first BSA pubs I acquired...). There is no mention of these items.

Is there a definitive policy for these training badges?

Thanks...(This message has been edited by davlafont)

Hello all. The original post seemed to question why the official shirt costs so much more than a similar item at WalMart. While there has been comment on the quality of less expensive shirts and there has been comment on whether or not people should complain at all, I'm surprised that no one has considered the benefit of BSA making a killing.

I'm new. I don't know the politics of National vs. Councils vs. Troops. And I'm not versed in BSA's budget. But doesn't it make sense that we should want to support the program with a premium on uniform items? Even if the articles were identical from the exact same manufacturer (therby removing from the debate the whole outsourcing discussion) shouldn't we consider the price difference as a contribution to the program which in turn uses those proceeds to support our boys?

For the record, I will be taking an active role in my son's Cub Scout Pack and just bought my own uniform items off Ebay. I'm just surprised that no one is defending BSA's stream of income.

(This message has been edited by davlafont)

Greetings all. This is my first post on this forum, so it only follows that I have a strong opinion about the topic.

My son is in his second year of Cub Scouting (Wolf). I am a career Army Officer that never was a scout. I've been very careful to avoid imposing military standards or expectations on my son in general and as it pertains to scouting in particular.

But man does it chap my... butt... to see the boys in our pack with a thousand different uniform variations. And the Neckerchief is a great source of my consternation.

To address the original post, I agree that under the collar just looks wrong. I never knew about the turned under collar, and I doubt I will teach my son to do that. I'll try it out, but I'm guessing it will cause chaffing as he runs around crazy that way it's been described in other posts.

There have been pack meetings where he's slowed down just long enough to find me, neckerchief in hand, and asked me to hold it. Rather than take a hard stand and insist that he wear the uniform properly, I've chosen to put it in my pocket until the end of the meeting. But I make sure he puts it back on (and makes whatever other uniform adjustments needed) for the closing ceremony. That's my version of choosing my battles.

Thanks everyone for a great discussion. I've learned that I should search eBay for uniform items, that I'm not the only one who goes crazy over how grade-school kids wear a neckerchief (!) and that I've found a pretty good resource to support the journey I've embarked upon with my son.

-Dave