Scoutcrafter

First of all, let me say a sincere “thank you” for all the feedback. Often, I’ll spend 10-20 minutes composing a thoughtful response on other forums only to be met with silence. I want to let you know I really, really appreciate they time you spent replying to my questions.

I totally agree about Scouts BSA being scout-led. If our patrol was functioning as you [collectively] described, with the SM advising the SPL, the SPL advising the PL, and the PL leading the meetings and coming up with agendas with the SPL, I’d be totally satisfied, and I’d keep quiet and watch.

Unfortunately, that is not how the first four months have gone. This troop creates “new scout patrols” rather than integrating new scouts into existing patrols – that doesn’t help. Our 11 year old kids are almost completely unable to run meetings and come up with agendas on their own – or at least they have not been given the chance to. Instead, the CC has been acting as a den leader and running everything. The CC also has never solicited any ideas from me, either.

Your comments have eased my concern about delaying Scout rank in favor of learning practical camping skills. It makes sense. However, I also agree with fred8033 that Scout rank should be a quick win, similar to Bobcat in cubs. Give the scouts some kind of recognition early on, and give them a badge to adorn their left pocket. Then again, do 11 year-olds really care about getting the Scout badge? Or is that something only an adult would worry about?

But as some of you have sensed, there are more issues at play. This issue of who decides patrol agendas is just the most recent case, one that seemed pretty significant to me.

The list of things that bug me keeps getting longer. Here are a few examples. Some are pretty trivial, some are pretty serious:

• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Scoutbook, making it impossible to see the patrol’s progression at a glance or send emails through SB. I had to create my own tool in Google Sheets to quickly see who was missing what. Only the advancement chair (in this case also the CC) and the SM have access to scout and patrol profiles.
• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Troopmaster, our troop’s preferred troop management tool. To send emails efficiently, I bought a patrol domain name and created a mailing list using my business web/email hosting service. Adding/changing calendar items must be done by the SM.
• Safety issue: at the knife “safety” meeting, scouts were instructed to use the butts of metal hatchets to baton their folding knives when splitting kindling. First, this is a terrible idea as doing that could easily break the hinge pin, rendering the knife useless in a survival situation. Second, such a practice is explicitly prohibited in the knife safety section on page 380 of the handbook.
• Safety issue: also at the knife safety meeting which was also working toward totem chip, the scouts were taught an unsafe technique for using a hatchet to split blocks of wood. They were instructed to hold block upright with one hand, use hatchet in other hand to strike hard enough to embed hatchet in wood, remove holding hand, lift hatchet attached to block, then chop. That first part about holding the block with one hand while embedding the hatchet with the other is very unsafe, as a missed glance could land on the holding hand. There are much safer techniques of splitting wood, easily found on bushcraft YouTube channels.
• Gave the scouts wrong info by saying BSA doesn’t allow fixed-blade knives and limits length to 4 inches. The truth is that BSA does not prohibit fixed blades and doesn’t have a length limit. Troops and camps can impose their own restrictions, but those restrictions do not emanate from BSA nati0onal.
• Organized a water balloon fight during a campout, contradicting BSA’s prohibition on such activities. Personally, I think it’s a bad rule. However, I don’t think I would violate the rule based on my personal opinion. I’d respect the rule even if I didn’t like it. But it makes me wonder what other rules they might disregard.
• Absolutely zero scout spirit/patrol spirit. In 4 months, I have not heard one song, one patrol yell, or one campfire skit.
• Requiring all rank requirements to be completed and filling out a 2-page form before the scoutmaster will schedule a scoutmaster conference. This seems like adding requirements to me.
• An adult built the campfire at the last campout.
• Withholding signatures for rank requirements until all the scouts’ books can be signed together at the same time (they said they do this only for Scout rank).

And there are more issues beyond these.

As a newcomer, I’ve had to bite my tongue and just observe their misguided practices. And now I’m realizing that trying to change their organizational myopia will be a lost cause.

By now, everyone here is thinking, “then why not just switch to another troop?”

The primary reason we haven’t jumped ship yet is the troop’s meeting location: it’s a friggin summer camp with it’s own pool, rifle and shotgun ranges, archery range, campfire pit, and acres of natural space. If some scouts need the swimming merit badge, they’ll quickly organize a swimming day. They schedule shooting days quite often. And I’m chomping at the bits to suggest some fun patrol activities to do in the various nooks and crannies around the campus.

But alas, I know the physical space isn’t a good reason enough to stay. I know the PEOPLE are more important than the space. I’m not saying the current leadership is bad. They’re totally decent people who care about their scouts. But their myopia and their unfamiliarity (or disregard) with current BSA practices really bothers me.

Many have asked if my son is having fun. The answer is that he’s indifferent. Some of the time has been fun, some of it has been just passing time.

A related question is…am I having fun? Given what I’ve said above, the first 4 months have been pretty deflating. It’s exhausting to get shut down and sidelined constantly. I’ve literally lost sleep over some of these issues.

This is following the absolutely incredible, fulfilling, and rewarding experience we had in cub scouts, where I was my son’s den leader for the last 5 years. Yes, I’m completely aware of the differences between cubs and scouts, and I totally accept those differences. Indeed, we’ve been preparing for the changes for the last two years as a Webelos den, as I gave the den increasing amounts of autonomy and instructed them on the patrol method.

So when we add together mine and my son’s sentiments - indifference and despair - it doesn’t make a strong case for staying, despite the extraordinary meeting space.

To their credit, the CC approached me yesterday at a merit badge course I was helping lead, and agreed with my suggestion to integrate more fun and games into our patrol meetings. They (I’m using gender unspecific terms to shield their identity) said we could take 30 minutes during our upcoming meetings for some team building games like I requested.

I appreciate the gesture, and it shows they understood my concerns. They also assured me that after we get the cooking/first aid/knots meetings out of the way, I will have more freedom to guide the patrol the way I want. But honestly it’s probably too little, too late. I have a feeling I will be butting heads with these leaders on an ongoing basis.

We do have another troop in mind. In fact, it’s the troop of our pack’s chartered org, the one were most of my Webelos crossed over to. We know and love many of the families there, and I believe I will face much less resistance whenever I make a suggestion.

I’m going to contact the other troop’s scoutmaster and see if we can attend some upcoming patrol and troop meetings, to help finalize our decision.

Thanks again for all your input!

TLDR; besides the COR, who has the ultimate authority to decide patrol meeting agendas? The CC, the scoutmaster, or the committee? Does the committee have the authority to override the SM and/or the CC? Any official links/resources that spell this out? Backstory follows…

I am having an issue with the troop we recently joined. The CC and SM are insisting that the new scout patrol completes certain tenderfoot requirements before the patrol has had a chance to earn Scout rank. Specifically, they want the patrol to complete cooking, first aid, and knots. It’s been 4 months since the first patrol meeting, and none of the 6 scouts have earned Scout rank thus far. The CC is actually leading all our patrol meetings for the first 6 months. Yes, I know the CC is not supposed to be a scout-facing position. I’m just giving you the facts.

My suspicion is that this unusual progression is designed to help older patrols satisfy some leadership requirements. An older patrol was present and “instructing” our fire safety meeting and our pocket knife safety meeting some weeks ago. I know the older scouts will be present again at our cooking patrol meeting next week.

It feels like advancement for the older scouts is being prioritized at the expense of the younger scouts.

I came up with a simple solution: appeal to the troop committee. My plan was to merely explain how it's unreasonable to delay the new patrol’s advancement for the sake of other patrols. I was going to suggest re-arranging the schedule to get back on track. I would propose to postpone the tenderfoot stuff until most of the patrol has earned Scout.

I’m a pretty convincing speaker and I’m pretty sure the rest of the committee would sympathize with our case.

I politely asked the CC to add an item to the next committee meeting agenda, so I could address our concerns (and vote to adjust the calendar).

The CC forwarded my email to the scoutmaster, who responded with a long-winded email about why it’s important for the scouts to be prepared for cooking, first aid, and knots, asap. He gave some far-fetched examples of what might happen if they went on a campout unprepared in those areas. (The food could taste terrible and no one would eat it. A rain fly could fly away during a rainstorm if the scouts didn’t use a taut line hitch, etc.)

The SM then shut down my request to speak to the committee, saying he is in charge of the program and it’s his responsibility to train the scouts so they will be successful in the troop. He continued with language along the lines of ‘this is the way we’ve always done it and it works for us, etc.

I’m pretty sure what they’re doing is wrong. Feel free to confirm that, but what I really need to know is which entity has the last say when it comes to planning patrol meeting agendas, the committee, the SM, or the CC?

I remember reading that besides the COR, the committee has the ultimate authority on such matters. The problem is, I’m having difficulty finding an official source to back it up. I’m not finding it in the Guide to Advancement or in the Troop Leader Guidebooks Vol 1 & 2. I suspect this info may be found in the Troop Committee Guidebook, but I don’t have a copy yet. I will try to get a copy next week.

In the meantime, can anyone point me to any official materials that explain the power structure of troop adult leadership? Does the committee really have no authority over the SM? TYIA

Den leader for 5 years, now ASM. 2 kids in scouts, one still in cubs, the other crossed to Scouts BSA last March. I'm pretty passionate about BSA scouting.

I was somewhat active on the official BSA forums before they were deleted. Reddit is a mess. So I'm looking for a new home to debate discuss today's hot topics. Hopefully I'm in the right place. Nice to meet you.