ScouterDavid

On 11/3/2023 at 4:35 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Why, why, why do we hire retired leaders?

My guess this is more about getting ties into industry for donations than an leader who really wants to learn how scouting is done today, what parents/society/youth need and making necessary changes.

My guess is that we can't afford current cutting edge leaders.

JBWest - can you post the actual story. that website wants me to pay and log in to view the story.

2 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

Mods, I wonder if this forum should be spun off into survivor issues vs. BSA ongoing operations discussion.

Anyway, I see in my USPS Informed Delivery that I have a letter coming from Omni today.  Has anyone received it?

I got mine last Saturday. Basically says "BSA's plan is effective".

I believe this was expected.

18 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

So if the appeals drag this out for a couple of years and if that causes BSA to file Chapter 7 liquidation, what is the bottom line on survivor's recovery?

My understanding is that if BSA files Chapter 7, it is essentially over for survivors, meaning no payouts for anyone.

The pension plan would be taken over by the PBGC and hundreds of millions of dollars would be sought by the government. It is also my understnading that the government is first in line for any assets. Finally, since the plan is a single employer plan, every LC could be held liable for the pension underfunded shortfall. A complete disaster for scouting in general if BSA has to file Chapter 7. 

I'm not an attorney so if someone has better informaiton, please correct me.

You know, it really feels like this will never end. Approaching 3 YEARS in bankruptcy! Now the District Court has the case. What's next? More appeals, more courts, more time? If it ever goes to the Supreme Court, the wait will increase even more. 

Here's the document - it's 567 pages.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/8f10f273-8247-42b4-8079-9e80c1fefe8a_10316.pdf

On 7/30/2022 at 8:19 AM, ALongWalk said:

This doesn’t look good to me…I am not close to being educated on this though.

I think my LC could survive setting its claims. Maybe it is time for other LC’s to break away.

Most LCs couldn't financially handle one or two claims without going bankrupt.

1 hour ago, ALongWalk said:

Will not the BSA be out of cash by October??

Possibly, although fall recruitment is when the most cash comes in. Any delay just drains money from the trust. So sad. The only ones getting anything out of this are the lawyers.

On 6/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, Eagle1993 said:

As part of the plan, BSA councils are kicking in an extra $100M that would have gone to pension fund as the councils said the fund was already larger than needed at the time of the plan. 

I definitely agree most claimants would be better off in Ch 11, but some would be better off in Ch 7.  I certainly hope the judge comes back with an approval as it seems like we are running out of time.  At some point they will hit cash flow issues.  As long as Jambo 2023 is on, I think we are ok.  If you see BSA cancel 2023 it may be a sign the bankruptcy is taking too long and they need to save cash. 

The LCs aren't really kicking in an extra $100M. That only applies IF the pension plan is overfunded. After the latest market turbulence, it isn't and the $100M will be going to the pension plan, NOT the trust fund.

On 6/16/2022 at 3:25 PM, fred8033 said:

We are really extending a tangent.  ... but ... Would LCs be liable for pension?  If McDonalds went chapter 7 and had under funded corporate pensions, I don't think the mom&pop individual franchise stores would share the corporate pension debt.  Similar for BSA &LCs.  ... BUT ... that's a whole massive ugly wart of a debate we've had before.  The legal separation between BSA & LCs.

I think the BSA pension plan is a single employee plan, meaning that the NC and LCs and jointly and individually liable for the pension plan liability shoud it fail. that would be catastropic for LCs and the government doesn't care - they would just wnat the $$.

33 minutes ago, Tron said:

There really isn't much battling though; if it would go to Chapter 7 a pecking order of age of debt would quickly set the winners vs losers; especially if there are multiple mortgages on properties.

I belive the pension plan is a single employer plan, so EVERY LC could be held liable for the pension plan funding. If this were to happen (PBGC takes over hte plan), it would surely bankrupt multiple LCs. Truly a disaster.

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

@ThenNow has fairly represented the situation over time.  ...  His above posts are correct and reasonable.

Your statement "everyone gets nothing" has truth too; as the judge's wish that BSA continues reflects other unspoken reasons. 

IMHO ... 

• To avoid a far uglier, larger and more costly liquidation case. 
• To avoid re-starting bankruptcy ... after spending 150+ million ... after 29 months.  
• To avoid opening new huge questions that chapter 11 bankruptcy did not address.  
• To get victims as much money as possible.  There is no guarantee a liquidation would mean more money to victims.  
• To get victims money earlier.  Chapter 11 approval puts money into a trust fairly soon.  Chapter 7 would be an unknown future date.
• To avoid creating many more court cases.  Liquidation would be a BSA only liquidation; not a settlement with all involved parties.
• To avoid asking if BSA can even cease to exist.  BSA is not a normal non-profit.  BSA was created by law; passed by congress; signed by the president.  Though usually an honorific, the law has implications that creates a real mess. ... It's like asking if the federal reserve can cease to exist.  It would probably take an act of congress to take BSA out of existence.  ... Would "liquidation" just put BSA into limbo until a future president re-established BSA, say 10 years from now?  ... Starting fresh with no YP oversight from this bankruptcy agreement?  

                    Short and specific  ...  Index ...  Full document containing 30901

• To avoid a huge number of new questions.  ...  BSA national indebted properties (Philmont, The Summit) and their mortgages ... different debt priorities ... the separation of BSA and LCs ... funding pensions ... etc, etc, etc.

There is truth that liquidation could mean everyone gets nothing.  

I think you are correct when you said "There is truth that liquidation could mean everyone gets nothing." If BSA liquidates, the pension plan crashes and the PBGC take it over. The liabilities of the plan is over $1.3 billion (I think) and as I understand it (could be wrong), the government is first in line to get assets. The SBR appraised for maybe $45 million and BSA owes around $225 million. Chapter 7 would be a disaster.

11 minutes ago, Tron said:

Why would she care if the BSA stops to exist? The overwhelming majority of the program is volunteer and local based and something new without legacy issues will rise out of the ashes. 

I would say the reality Silverstein not wanting BSA to die is not about BSA but about the reality that the vindictive get the BSA at all costs BS that surrounds this case is vastly ignorant of the fact that if there is no pound of flesh to get, everyone gets nothing.

With a non profit bankruptcy, the court has two obejctives - settle the claims and make sure the organization survives Chapter 11, assuming the mission is still relevant.

It's regarding the sale of the National Distribution Center in Cahrlotte, NC. BSA is selling it and then leasing it back. Proceeds go to the trust fund, subject to certain limits, depending on the amount of cash BSA has as of the effective date (I think).

It's from the BSA National Fundation. I believe the amount is $55 million.