Bobbys_mommy

The cub master has made it clear that he doesn't have time to talk to anyone about anything because he has a full-time job. He even said this in front of everyone from district.

My husband told him he didn't want to hear it. My husband has a full-time and a part-time job. He said he still finds time to do whatever he needs or wants to do with our family AND put more time/effort into scouts than the cub master.

Personally I'd rather talk to each other but we weren't given many good options here.

Lesson learned. We had no idea that things should have been different or that it's run better elsewhere. Now we know.

Thunderbird, would Council have records if they were never reported to District? 

Perdidochas, we are finding out all kinds of things that we never knew and, given this was our first time in a pack, had nothing to compare it to.

I believe that is why they are so mad at me, because they've gotten away with doing things however they wanted for so long, but I ruined that for them.

I don't think anyone there does any more training than is absolutely necessary. They tried to talk us out of going to University of Scouting because "it's so expensive". It cost $35, including lunch.

I wonder if they just felt we were showing them up by wanting to go...

qwazse, I don't see why I can't show the signed book/cards to prove he earned what he has, but they all seem to be asking for this "transfer report" from the old pack.

While my son is clearly not an instigator (which might be hard for others to see without knowing him) I do see what you are saying and I do fear that it will be heard for him to let his guard down in the future. Heck, we as parents might have trouble trusting again and that is exactly why I'm being open and honest with the new pack as far as what has occurred to prompt us to come to them.

We also intend to refrain from any leadership responsibilities at a new pack so that our focus when taking him to these meetings is on his safety and security.

He really didn't earn much at the meetings, we have always done a lot outside of the meetings. I don't think a single 1 of his 25 belt loops was earned at any meetings. They may have done an activity here or there but majority of it has been done at home or out and about in the world.

Wow cyphertext. That surprises me as well. Maybe when they hear the same complaints from the other parents they will change their tune.

The parents are also pointing out that word is getting around at the school most of these kids are recruited from, so if they think they will just replace them with all new scouters next year, they will be very disappointed as not many will likely be willing to even give it a try.

The DE in our case was trying to be helpful. I think he is just young and in over his head. In the past the cub master has bragged to us (fellow leaders) about "putting the DE in his place" and "setting him straight".

I agree, things can be said and come out in a tone that was unintended but once a child is hiding under a table in fear, I would think common sense would dictate you stop and change course.

I just want my child's records transferred at this point but apparently that is not even going to be easy

Not planning on it David. He has no interest in sports. He's is cray into science-type stuff.

WisconsinMama, they don't have den meetings. The entire pack meets once a week.

Typically all of the boys are together regardless of rank because there aren't enough den leaders to separate them into dens.

The cub master's father is to my knowledge a registered den leader on paper, just because they don't have enough leaders, but he never has had anything to do with the cub scouts except to yell at them when they are being too loud.

The cub master's wife is registered for the same reason, even thought she never attends meetings. 

I certainly not about making waves, which is why I've bit my tongue for nearly 2 years. But this was the last straw.

We are done with this pack. They are in trouble. Most of the parents are not returning because they are sick of the lack of communication, finding out about things last minute like the day before, the lack of planning, I could go on and on, but we'd be here all day. That is why the district is going to lead this first committee meeting that the parents have been invited to. They are trying to address all the issues and prevent the pack from folding.

 I just need to get my son's records transferred which they are making difficult. 

I have to focus on my child, which is why I wanted to make sure that this was reported to the proper persons who can address it and prevent anyone from being treated this way again. I already have a new pack lined up for us to check out tomorrow evening.

We've had no issues at the pack we are dual registered at and have no plans to leave there. Our reasoning behind the dual registration is that the 2nd pack is very geared towards special needs, which our son has some minor special needs. I feel it is good exposure for him to be with other kids who have special needs. However they are all much more severe than his. I think this is a good thing. I think they can teach our son that while he has some struggles, there are others who struggle far more, and he can be a good friend to them and help them. 

But I also don't feel he needs to be restricted to only special needs kids. The original pack gave him the experience of being around more neuro-typical children. 

As I said he is not interested in sports or anything of the like. But he's all-about scouting, just as he is all-about science, and we don't hold him back when it comes to things he is passionate about. I purchase materials that are 2-4 grades ahead just to satisfy his thirst for knowledge in science/weather related topics.

I should also add that I tried to take this up directly with the cub master first, after the meeting. But he screamed at me that he did nothing wrong and it was my son's fault and then hung up on me.

I have a friend who is a DC from another district. I asked him who should I report this to and he offered to forward my complaint for me. So that is why this went to the DC for our district.

I'm happy to share David.

So our son got pushed around, knocked down by other cub scouts on a nearly weekly basis. When he would get frustrated by this, we had a process in place. He would come sit at the parent table with me, I would ask him if we needed to leave, he would ALWAYS say no. So we would then sit there, take some deep breaths, drink a little water, and once he had recovered he would go back to rejoin activities. All leaders were familiar with this process and we've been doing it for over a year. 

On the night in question, he was sitting at the table with me after being pushed around for the 3rd time. The cub master approached and began badgering him, "What are you doing over here??? Why aren't you participating??? Did you already do everything there is to do??? Did you do each activity already???"

At this point my son slid off the chair he was sitting in and crawled under the table to hide from cub master. But cub master continued, "Where the heck are you going??? What you can't talk to me now??? Fine, whatever!" Turned on his heels and walked away.

When he was gone, 2 parents who were sitting there and witnessed the whole thing said, "What the heck was that???" and "Was that his version of concern???"

I tried once again to help our son recover but this time when I asked him if we needed to leave, he responded yes for the first time ever.

On the way home he tearfully told us that he needed to talk to us about something when we got home.

When we got him he tearfully told us that he has tried and tried but he doesn't think he can go back there again.

This is a dedicated cub who has earned Wolf & Bear, along with Bobcat and 28 belt loops in under 2 years. Even the cub master says he is the best scout out of the bunch and he never has any problems with him.

So what I don't understand is why, if you've just approached a child and he is hiding under a table from you, would you not stop what you are doing and say "Whoa! I didn't mean to scare you" or something like that. Why go on badgering him? Why defend yourself as if you did nothing wrong and try to insinuate that is it was the 8-year-old special needs child's fault? When the child was sitting there, perfectly fine until he was approached?

I in no way was trying to keep this a secret, it's just honestly painful to think/talk about. It brings about a lot of emotions, to say the least.

This should ever have happened in the first place. Anyone working with children should know better. If I were in that situation, I don't care if I believed I had done nothing wrong, I would tell the child I'm very sorry, I did not intend to scare you, but I am so sorry that you got scared. Because I would be the adult in the situation.

Add to that the cub master's father acting as though he had to be held back from saying or doing something to me... This is not acceptable behavior IMHO. Something needs to be done to prevent it from happening again. This is why I feel so strongly about it.

Thank you scoutldr, that is who I've been drafting this e-mail too, after it was suggested here in some of the first responses.

Yes my husband and I were both registered leaders but we resigned last week. We felt that if our son were to continue at this pack, one of us would have to be by his side at all time, as one other special needs parent does with his son, and that wouldn't leave us the freedom of time for leadership responsibilities.

They were sad to lose my husband but just plain blaming me for reporting them. But like I said, Happy to be hated for this purpose. There was no way I was going to allow our son to be treated that way and not stand up for him, or worse have him see me not stand up for him.

I'm not looking for revenge here. I just don't want them to get away with it and/or do it again to another child.

Understood David. But that does not excuse an adult leader bullying a special needs child. That is why this had to be taken to a district level.

I think we may very well be coming from very different experiences. Sounds like perhaps district has been involved to the detriment of a unit in your personal experience. I'm sorry if that's the case. I think they should be there to help in circumstances that warrant it, but not be detrimental to a well-running unit.

If a pack chooses to not allow a dual registered scout, they should say so straightforwardly. Allowing/making excuses for an adult leader treating a child in such a manner that the child is cowering under a table to hide from said leader is unacceptable in any circumstance. If my child was being targeted because of the dual registration, there were a lot of much more adult and respectable ways to handle it.

Thanks Parkman. I agree with "a lot of unusual" things happening. Unfortunately it was our first experience and we did not know better for the first year-and-a-half.

Jameson, I've confirmed with multiple District Commissioners that dual registration is allowed, and according to the Guide to Advancement one pack/troop will be the "home pack" where advancement records are tracked because basically it would be too confusing to keep them at multiple units. The other pack does not collect full dues from the scout as registration only has to be paid once.

What follows is what the DC quoted to me:

As I said before, we've never been invited or welcomed to these committee meetings so it's hard to know what is going on there. 

My main goal is to make sure that no child is ever treated as badly as mine was. It takes a special kind of ignorance for an adult to bully a special needs child.

We can go back and forth about all this other stuff all day, for multiple days, but that's what it boils down to for me. We are walking away to protect our child. Just trying to make sure we're not leaving it open for anything like that to be done to another child.

What means? It's pretty out of my hands at the moment...

An adult leader bullying a child is unacceptable. I feel I did nothing wrong reporting that to district. I'd do it all again. I have no desire to infringe on anyone's rights, but my son has rights and should be treated properly, and anyone who chooses not to do so deserves to be reported. Not my fault all this other stuff came out because of it.

New news! Went to transfer my boys records to a new pack. All that has ever been reported to district is 1 belt loop and his Bobcat, which he earned his first month of scouting. NOTHING else from the past 2 years. The child has no room left on his belt for anymore belt loops...

David, I'm not sure what brought all that on or if it applies to this situation. We've gotten a bit far off of the original topic. 

I've already been advised by a friend who is a DC (of a different district) how all this is supposed to work, how our meeting should have gone, and so forth. He's really pretty ticked off about what has happened to us here. I was really posting here to get other opinions on what our next step should be, if there is one, for comparison.

But bottom line, district is insisting on all parents being invited to a committee meeting this coming week to share their comments, complaints on how the pack is being run, etc. District will be there running that meeting to make sure everyone's voices are heard. This all came about today, after my original post.

It sounds like maybe you're speaking from experience when you refer to a "free-for-all" and that makes me sad. There needs to be communication on both sides but when one side becomes disruptive, disrespectful or out-of-control, it ruins it for everybody. It is true, sometimes parents fail to act like adults. In our case I think it was more the leadership failing to act as an adult.

But given recent developments I am saving that e-mail unfinished in my draft folder. We are going to let this play out and hope for the best.

I really appreciate all the time and thought you've put into this though! I personally am hoping for a non-free-for-all. I know what the parents complaints are because they've shared them with me and I've tried to voice them to leadership to no avail. Hopefully now that district is involved, their voices will be heard and positive change will take place. 

Yes David, that would be the cubmaster's father, the person at the meeting who was pretending that he needed to be held back from saying or doing something to me, as though he was going to haul off and hit a woman or something.

Parents have NEVER been invited to committee meetings, most don't even know they exist. Leaders were invited once, but after that we were told that our attendance was unnecessary going forward. I was told I was only needed at that 1 meeting to "take notes" because the cubmaster couldn't make it.

I'm finding out now that no one can tell us whether we can or should attend meetings. They are supposed to be open to everyone, every parent. District is trying to correct this issue, which is why I'm only drafting an e-mail at this point, not yet sending it. 

Committee members lied at this meeting, claiming that all parents have always been invited and made to feel welcome to attend committee meetings. Today is actually the first time they are hearing anything about it.

I don't know that there is a "Pack committee" The cubmaster sits on the committee, but it is not separate from the boy scout committee. Money is not kept separate either, and recently we were all informed that we are $600 in the negative and need to kick butt fundraising. I asked where the $600 went, given that we don't do any activities or go anywhere that costs money... Our questions were ignored. They just pushed the fundraising issue. My concern was that if someone has their hand in the kitty whom shouldn't, and if that situation was not explored & rectified first, we could fundraise all we want, but we'd just be putting more money in that person's pocket. 

So, in answer to your question, the committee was there at the meeting that I was told would only be us as parents, the cubmaster, and 2 people from district. However most of that committee are boy scout leaders and have nothing to do with the cub scout pack at all. They certainly had no involvement with the incident in question. 

I've recently found out all sorts of things by attending classes at University of Scouting that I never knew before. It's an old boys system down there and I've ruined it for them. Nothing was being run the way that it should and now with districts' eyes close on them they have to make all the changes they never wanted to. So again, I'm happy to be hated if it brings about a positive result.

I just think it's highly unfair to our son. But it is their loss honestly, because they just lost 2 leaders they couldn't afford to lose, who made generous donations to the pack, and a future eagle scout in a time when they are quite hard-up for boy scouts in general (they have 4). And they have no Webelos about to cross over to Boy Scouts, and most of the parents only stay 1 year, because it is run so poorly that no one wants to stay longer.

It's all very sad really.

Thanks Brian. I am in the process of drafting an e-mail to the SE. Taking my time and waiting to see what news comes of the situation this week.

There's so much more, it's just impossible to explain it all as I'd be here all day and I have a family to attend to. I just want to make sure if we walk away, at the very least changes are made to make it worth our sacrifice and ensure it never happens again. I'd hate for another passionate little cub scout's heart to be crushed the way ours has. 

Thanks ParkMan. We have other packs lined up to visit and see which he likes best. All have expressed sympathy for what we've been thru and would be happy to have him.

David CO, I understand if the whole situation sounds confusing, because it is. I honestly feel there was something else going on in the background here. I grew up with these people and I suspect there is something, perhaps from years ago that I'm not even aware of, that maybe a grudge was being held that again, I am not aware of. All I know is we were treated quite harshly and badgered about a lot of things, when we were one of few who were doing all the work to make the pack run better.

By "came to blows" I mean the ongoing on-and-off attitude we were on the receiving end of exploded and overflowed on to our child, and that is what is not acceptable. No child should ever feel they have to hide under a table from a cub leader. If I were the adult in that situation I would immediately apologize and explain that I did not mean to scare the child, whether I felt I had done anything wrong or not, the child is scared and I am the adult in the situation.

The meeting was not supposed to be with the committee. It was planned to be us as the parents, the cub master, and some people from district. I wouldn't have minded if they included one more leader just to keep the numbers even. But they included the whole committee of boy scout leaders only, so it was 8 of them against 2 of us, and they all questioned us to the point that nothing got handled because there were too many hands in the pot and most of them didn't have all the facts.

District is now forcing them to invite parents to the pack committee meeting. Honestly I thing that is why they are so mad at me, because they are being forced now to run things the way they should be run and haven't been doing all along.

And that's fine, I'm happy to be hated if it brings about positive change. I'm just sad, hurting that it has to hurt my child as well.

He kept questioning us about it, we would explain to him what we had been told, he would drop it then bring it up again the next week, and so forth, for 2 months. He was finally set straight by district that dual registration is allowed and there was no need to drag out questioning us about it for so long. He should have gone to district if he had questions about it, not harassed us. 

I suppose if a pack is foolish enough to drop a dues-paying boy from their pack, who is according to them the best behaved scout that they have,  whose parents are leaders who they desperately need and also donate hundreds of dollars in crafts/supplies on their own dime... Then that is their business. But my understanding is there is no rule against dual registration, just that advancement records need to be kept at one pack, the one where dues is paid, with awards presented there as well. 

The 2nd pack collected no dues from him/us. Though we've made a point to remind them that if they ever need anything, they need only ask. I don't feel right not paying something but that is the rule apparently. They charged us a whooping $1 to register him.

I did and I found him! Thank you so much!

Just googled it, the 3rd guy was the field director

Will see if I can google who the SE would be

Thanks Thunderbird. I'm not sure I know who the SE is. The district executive was at this meeting, along with a representative of the district commissioner, and another man I'd honestly have to look at his business card to remember who he was. They allowed the gang-up on us, and I honestly don't feel I can trust them given that fact.

Thanks. Absolutely we are thru with the pack with issues. Also continuing the special needs pack. Given that he is homeschooled, I liked him having the exposure at the special needs pack as well as the pack with more neurotypical children, so we are looking to replace that one. 

I'm not sure where to post. Maybe someone can direct me...

Our boy has been a cub scout for 2 years now. He loves scouting. He is interested in nothing else, no sports or karate, just scouts.

He was recently dual registered in a 2nd pack that is more geared towards special needs. Upon finding out, his cub master at his original pack started telling us this was a problem and it was not allowed. I knew this not to be true but he gave us a hard time about if for 2 months. 

Things finally came to blows a couple weeks ago & he intimidated our son to the point that he was hiding under a table. I tried to discuss this with the cubmaster after a meeting but he hung up on me. So I contacted District.

District set up a meeting, but long story short the entire committee (which included no parents, mostly boy scout leaders who had nothing to do with the situation) showed up and ganged up on us, lying and making wild accusations. As you can imagine not much was accomplished.

I'm hearing that bullying is not required to be reported directly to National. Is this true? Our boy has been pushed around by other scouts at nearly ever single meeting. Then the cub master intimidated him. Followed by the boy scout leaders ganging up on my husband and I... 

Now there is animosity towards us and we feel this was the final straw. It's certainly not a healthy environment for us or our boy. We are looking for another pack for our boy to join. In the meantime sticking with the special needs pack we are dual registered in. 

Should I just leave this up to district or should I push for National to get involved? I don't want this to happen to any other boy/family again...