maryread
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Posts posted by maryread
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A son in first grade...
legacy.
Scouting is built into our constitution, with our President as it's leader. It's important. It's not what I want, it's what the youth want.
Heck, our state accepts 2 lifeguarding certifications. Red Cross, and BSA.
I'm a reasonable person, and I'm going to help out the best I can with my BPSA group. I just still don't see a problem with the girls in our pack officially participating and being recognized for their achievements. They're already there, they're already doing everything with the boys if they want to. And it seems that most packs in our district operate the same way. I feel it's worth at least testing it out.
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Why not be honest about it and then not call it BOY Scouts of America. For me, the use of the Boy Scouts of America branding is what the co-ed group wants. @[member="maryread" alluded to this when the idea of another group wouldn't have the prestige of BSA and the 100+ year reputation it has garnered. For me, personally, I would find it a lot easier to hijack someone else's reputation than try it on my own. If it works, fine, if it doesn't, one at least gets some free press out of it.
Like I said, starting a co-ed outdoor youth ministry is a lot easier for the kids in my area than trying to take on the whole of the BSA to get a Pack charter with the BSA logo on it. I can provide exactly the same program for them as I now do for my cub aged counterparts..
Why was it that you returned to BSA after having a poor experience with it?
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In practical terms, I could see a roll-out via "local option" ...
CO's who want their BSA program in the form of a
- unit exclusive to boys would have "Cubs"
- unit exclusive to girls would have "Cub-ettes"
- a co-ed unit would have "Cubs-plus"
This would allow the chips to fall where they may. It's consistent with what I've learned about Central European models ... which may have one unit of each type in a district.
It could also allow councils to develop facilities for various types of day camps.
The big question becomes this:
Let's say that, with or without the BSA, @@maryread, the mom in the article that started this thread, and one hundred others form associations of girls (and their siblings) who build those PWD cars at age 8, learn flag protocol at age 10, camp monthly at age 11, master first class skills at age 12, hike and camp independently at age 13 ... maybe to the tune of 400 patrols in the next few years.
Why wouldn't we want those 2400 to wear our 1st Class badge, O/A sashes, and be with us at HA bases and National Jamboree?
Funny thing is the pack in the article thought they were doing everything above board. When they started piloting the Lion program years back they had been wrongly informed that it was part of the Learning for Life program (co-ed), and had a girl interested and signed her up. When it was time for the boys to move up to Cub Scouts, they did, she didn't. She would still do everything with the pack. They came up with a plan for LFL groups to work in conjunction with Packs and Troops, and had this plan approved by their Area. They had been functioning as an independent den within the pack. I'm unclear of exactly what happened but someone higher up got wind and it's ending very soon. Most likely because it gained attention and the BSA needed to take a public stance on the matter. So the thought of co-ed isn't absurd, it's something that's actually been approved by an Area. It's worked.
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I should also add her children? One's an MD in residency right now, another holds a doctorate in bio-mechanical and does research (she also qualified last weekend for the Boston Marathon), another is international business consultant and the boy is an electrical-mechanical engineering currently in the cell phone business. Wanna see pictures of my 3 FEMALE granddaughters!
Very impressive
Great to hear she'll be in the marathon! The starting line is a just a couple of miles from our house, we watch it every year. ​ ​ -
She's mine too.
There's pros and cons for working with BSA and working without BSA. Whenever I have something like your situation where you might feel co-ed is important for your kids, then just focus on them. Don't try to save the world, just one little bit to start and see where it goes. BP did it that way.
Yeah, but if I don't try and save the world, who will?
In all seriousness though, I can't help thinking of myself as a child. Unless there is someone like me offering co-ed scouting type programs all over, there will be girls missing out on the experiences. BSA groups are everywhere.
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One's gotta remember that this guy Stosh on the forum uses sarcasm a lot.
One really doesn't need BSA to be making a fortune on something that is far easier to do than what most people think.
Seriously - it is my belief that the social dynamics behind co-ed scouting is more political agenda posturing than actually looking out for what is in the best interest of the youth. If one wants a one-size-fits-all to the upbringing of our young people, then it is the responsibility of those believing that to act on their beliefs, but it is probably a more honest approach to develop their own program from scratch, designed specifically for those co-ed beliefs rather than simply hijacking someone else's program because they didn't want to put in the effort to do it themselves.
The litmus test in any political posturing is to reverse the polarity and see if it still floats. What if there was a movement for boys to join Girl Scouts and began pressing them go co-ed. I would venture to guess there would be a political backlash far louder than girls usurping the boy's program. One can always see the hypocrisy a lot better doing this.
I have had great success running a outdoor co-ed youth program through churches. Raise some money, buy some equipment, and go camping. Take a BSHB along for reference. One doesn't need to be a registered scouter to buy BSA literature. As a matter of fact I have taught MB classes to many different groups out there. The last one I did was orienteering for a group of older lady kayakers. I didn't even need to be a registered MB counselor, no back ground check, no 2-deep, and with the group being all female, I didn't even need a female adviser along. Bought the books, used my maps and compasses, had fun teaching, the ladies appreciated it and it cost them the price of the book and a Saturday afternoon after paddling a river in the morning.
Being the instructor I got to go on the paddle for free! ..... and the best thing about it, I didn't need to hijack BSA to do it.I understand what you're saying. And to be honest, the making money part of your suggestion was the biggest turn off, but I have a feeling it would be encouraging to BSA to follow through with it.
I've actually been building my own handbook. I'm technically chartered through BPSA but it's been tough working through them, I can't get ahold of anyone in the central organization for information. So will probably be moving forward as an independent group. Plus I'd prefer to not have to follow male/female leader requirement for co-ed groups. But BSA is a great organization. And to be fair, BSA is awarded special privileges in this country (even allows them to discriminate). They have the resources and support to produce the program that they do. I can pour my heart out into building a program but doubt it would ever be as appealing to youth and parents as BSA is.
Why not start something similar to explorers/venturers for younger kids?
PS- your wife sounds like my hero
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Maybe BSA out to run a Cub/Boy Scout program which is male only and then a parallel co-ed program under a different name, i.e. Explorers/Venturers, but same outdoor type programming so that one can have a true choice in the matter from the CO's down to the individual scout. This would open the door for increased membership, more uniform sales, patches, literature, etc. and the BSA could make a fortune off of it.
Sounds like a great idea.
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Maryread,
At the moment, you are experiencing Cub Scouts. When your son hits Boy Scouts, it will be a HUGE (emphasis) difference. Cub Scouts focuses on family outings and family involvement. Boy Scouts is completely different. Boy Scouts focuses on individual growth and independence. In my experience, parents have a harder time adjusting to Boy Scouts than the boys themselves. Worst offenders are former Cub Scout leaders who cross over. They have spent anywhere from 1-5+ years doing stuff and being in charge, and the former CS leader needs to be "deprogrammed" as one friend calls it, or "Unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda puts it. Even those of us who know better have a hard time. Just as I had to adjust from working with Boy Scouts to Cub Scouts ( a lot easier transition I might add) I had to adjust working with Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. Heck just this weekend I had to get an recently crossed over leader away from members of his old den who were screwing up putting up a tent.
Regarding females in Scouting, there will be changes, and it will be detrimental to the boys in the program. Yes there are a few great female Scout leaders. I've had the pleasure to work with them. But they are less than 1% of the female leader population. Someone pointed out to me the decline in standards since the introduction of female SMs and ASMs in the late 80s/early 90s. While I personally think OPERATION FIRST CLASS is the biggest reason for the decline in standards, after observing units with large numbers of females in leadership positions, I do believe that has been a factor. I also believe having adult male leaders, growing up in the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program" which took OUTING out of Scouting by not requiring a camping program is another factor.
I don't doubt this. Just because we have lots of female leaders in our pack, it doesn't make it better. That's just how it's worked out, we have a real hard time getting anyone to volunteer. Although that may be in part to the current CM's lack of trying (I'm due to take over in April, I've already filled 3 positions that have been vacant for the past year) I'm definitely the most adventurous out of our group. I've had so much push back just by trying to get the pack to use mess kits vs. disposable paper products. The kids don't help with cooking or cleaning up after meals. They're very coddled.
But yes, I'm in Cub Scouts, and have yet to experience Boy Scouts. I can understand how keeping them separated at an older age would be beneficial, but I see no reason why doing so in Cub Scouts is necessary. Keep dens unisex, pack co-ed.
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Again that sounds familiar. From 1991 each group here could chose whether to admit girls. From 2007 all groups became coed. Quarter of a century since the first change, thick end of a decade since the second and girls still make up only around 20% of scouts in the UK. Most still prefer to go to Girl Guides (there's a few that go to both).
About 5 years ago we held a joint evening with the Girl Guides that use our building. We went out to a local campsite for a wide games and camp fire night. Even if you didn't know the kids you could pick out the girls who were scouts from the girls who were guides very easily. The scout girls came in walking boots or trail shoes, chose dark coloured fleeces or water proofs so they couldn't be seen in the woods etc. The girls who were guides were all wellie boots and floral hats and gloves. Just a case of horses for courses!
That said, I think that last post from Stosh has some words of wisdom. I won't pretend to know what your rules and regs are but I would be very wary about taking kids along who were not official members.
Pretty much how I would picture it going. I really can't imagine BSA filling up with girls just because they're allowed to do so.
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Going forward, if things were to change, I'd say absolutely. They should be afforded the same benefits, including liability insurance. To be honest, BPSA does the male/female leaders. If they're both present as kids, they need to both be there as leaders as well. If it's something that BSA felt was necessary, I'd be all for it if it meant heading in the right direction. It can be somewhat of a hinder to be honest, and I'm not sure I feel the need when 2 deep leadership is already required.
Having the siblings participating currently isn't anything new for our pack I believe, it's been goin on long before I've been there. I'm not positive if they're covered, they'd be covered just the same as the parents, if they are. We tend to be very family oriented, parents are always there with their kids along with any siblings. They're allowed to participate in pretty much every activity we do as a pack. Not sure how it works for liability for district activities, they must be covered for that stuff, especially the summer camp. I've tried looking it up before, and I read somewhere in these forums that as long as their included in the head count on the activity plan submitted they should be covered. Still not something I'm 100% on.
Would these girls be covered by any insurance or legal protection if they were injured? Also what about leader liability? male leaders female girls,
Until some policy mandates are established, I would be kinda edgy about having them around on a regular basis.
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The fact is that the girls are already there in our Pack. They can participate in almost everything we do, they're already doing it. There's no boy/girl separation. They can participate in some district activities, in our summer camp program. They're just not recognized for their achievements.
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Let's just say that BSA allows girls to join, and Girl Scouts still exists. Do we really think they'll be flocking to join BSA? Just because a ballet class allows boys, doesn't mean that it will fill up with them. I would like to think that most girls would still like to continue with Girl Scouts, because they do girlie things, things that most girls are attracted to. I would have preferred BSA, but that's because I liked to do the things that were generally associated with boys, and liked hanging out with boys. I wasn't like most girls I knew.
If we were to take Boy Scouts out of the picture, do you really think there is anything wrong with co-ed Cub Scout packs? Den moms are not a new concept. Once girls are done with Cub Scouts there are already other options through BSA for girls. If we were to be open minded I assure you there would be a way to integrate girls into Cub Scouts that wouldn't hurt the integrity of Boy Scouts. Why not add all female Troops while maintaining all male Troops? I'm not sure I see a downside to that option.
About leaders, we can barely fill spots as it is. We do have dads in the Pack with scouting backgrounds but they're so busy with their jobs that they are unwilling to volunteer. Our women leaders do at lease 75% of the work, easy. Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Treasurer, Registration Chair. All positions vacated by men and filled by women because they're the ones willing to give their time and effort.
It's not about changing Girl Scouts to be more attractive to most boys, or BSA changing to be more attractive to most girls, it's about allowing them to choose which path they would like to travel down.
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To be fair, I've read Scouting for Boys and The Wolf Cub's Handbook​ by BP and the current Cub Scout program is a far cry from his original program. That wasn't brought on by girls, it was brought on by BSA evolving to match the interests of today's kids. To increase registration. BPSA comes much closer. I'm actually also a Scoutmaster of a small BPSA group but my Cub Scout siblings want to be in Cub Scouts with their family.
The argument of having girls being a distraction while administering safety instructions became invalid when homosexual boys were welcomed.
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As a girl growing up, I much prefered to play with boys, to do what most would consider to be activites for boys. I still do.
There's no way I would have signed up for Girl Scouts as a kid, even if they did more outdoor activities. I hated skirts for one, I threw temper tantrums whenever my mom tried to put me into one. But the biggest part was because I loved playing with boys. I loved getting dirty, climbing rocks, fishing, ANYTHING that brought me outside and allowed me to challenge myself. But I was lucky. My dad was generally not in the picture, my mom was busy trying to support my sister and I. Seeing that we were lacking in mentors, she signed us up for the Big Brother Big Sister program. I wound up being matched up with a woman and her husband who did things with me, brought me places, experienced things with me, taught me morals, and how to protect nature. Everything that I could have done as a Cub/Boy Scout. I will always be eternally grateful for them and everything they did for me. I know that I wouldn't be the person I am today without them in my life. But I was lucky. My sister was also paired up with someone from the program, and had no where near the experience and nurturing as I did. We were a rare success story. I remember being featured in a paper, and receiving special awards. Our connection was strong, and our being part of their program far succeeded the program's expectations in terms of our success in being a great partnership, and the length of time we were together. I was REALLY lucky, I still tell them to this day how much I appreciate what they've done for me.
My son is now in Cub Scouts, and I'm going to be taking over as Cubmaster next month when our current Cubmaster's sons cross over. I have a strong urge to offer these kids the same experiences I had, to actually help them become better adults. Coming into it, one of our Cubmasters had mentioned a sibling, a girl, who loves Cub Scouts. She did Girl Scouts, and hated it. It's not for her. I now have another with the same sentiments. We allow siblings to participate in all pack activities, but it's hard for me to watch. I see it as a slap in the face to the girls. They can do all of the same things, but are not recognized for their achievements. I love what those California girls are doing. There is no justice in following unjust laws. There is no reason why girls should not be able to participate formally. They can do most other things together. As a girl growing up if I wanted to play town football, I could have. If I wanted to play baseball instead of softball, I could have, and did. Why can I participate in running the program, but these girls are not allowed to join formally? Our pack has a couple of male den leaders, but it is run by women, we're the ones that make things happen.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emily-henry/confessions-of-a-girl-boy_b_1944421.html
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Many other countries have allowed enrollment for girls in scouts. They have been successful. They have been successful in providing experiences for all genders. They have been successful in seeing an increasing amount of registrations, vs. what the BSA is currently experiencing. I see band-aids like the Lion program, which I don't hate, but it will not fix the enrollment problem like they hope it will. Letting girls join will. Even if it's a separate den, they should be included in our pack like they wish they could. It's upsetting, I feel awful that I have my hands tied. Especially because I know what it feels like to want to do these types of activities with no outlet. I had 0 self confidence as a child and teen, and I think a large part of that is because I was always told that I shouldn't do something, or dress a certain way because I'm a girl, but I wanted to do it anyways. I have a parent ready to quit the pack over it, her daughter would love to be part of the pack, and it's hard for her Tiger to understand the reasoning behind why she can't. It is becoming a negative experience for their family. I really hope to see things change, soon.
Girls Just Wanna Be Cub Scouts
in Issues & Politics
Posted · Edited by maryread
Yet there are people in the BSA community encouraging we start these programs. Currently my BPSA group has more boys than girls in it. We're fairly new, and not very large. The boys in the group are not Cub Scouting as well (not that I haven't encouraged it). The other BPSA in my area is quite large, and also has a good amount of boys in the group.
There's a big difference between my BPSA group, and our Cub Scout pack though. Cub Scouts is always a much larger event when we get together as a pack, there are lots of kids running around, the energy is different. BPSA is focusing on more of the scouting activities and ethics BP had envisioned.