CA Scout Mom

Sounds like a great camp, BTW?  Where is it?

14 hours ago, ParkMan said:

We have a number of parents who teach classes.  Some of those meet before the troop meeting, some at a time convenient to all.   Most meet every couple of weeks for a couple of months.  This has worked really well - we normally have 8-10 such classes a year.

I think the key for us is that we almost never teach merit badges at a troop meeting.  

That's what our troop does too.  We hold them before troop meetings so those who have done them already/not interested don't need to participate.  Sometimes we hold sessions during weekends or breaks.  We run about 4-6 per year.  Some kids are really into doing MB's but most aren't.  However, most are used to the grind so they'll do it if they're pushed.  But, there's enough fun stuff to balance it out.

Our troop charges $120 per Scout for dues.  That covers registration, replacement costs for troop and patrol equipment, patches/awards and helps to pay for adult participation in campouts and submissions for reimbursement for gas.  Additionally, Scouts pay for their campouts which vary from $15-$35 per outing and summer camp which runs about $400-$700.  The troop also does fundraising including popcorn in the Fall and Camp Cards in the Spring.   The fundraisers help fund Individual Scout Accounts as well as troop accounts--usually 50% goes to troop account and the other 50% is divided among participating Scouts.  We have about 20-25 Scouts.

I understand your dilemma--our troop is in the suburbs of LA and our troop has been in existence for 40 years but as the population has aged, the numbers have declined.  So, on each end of the valley where we are, there are two mega troops with about 75-100 Scouts in each.  We're in the middle with about 25 Scouts but there are a bunch of other smaller troops in our neighborhood--about 4 actually.

We reached out to one of the other troops, also with about 25 Scouts to do an activity with them and it didn't work out so well since we notice their Scouts were not as physically active as our Scouts.  So, there was a cultural difference.

But, I still think that we could work toward doing some more activities together but it might need some more planning.  We left it to the Scouts to lead the activity and being boy-led, it wasn't that smooth and some of the parents didn't feel it was worthwhile.

Anyway, I'd say see if you can get the buy-in first from the other troop and then if so, brainstorm some ideas on how it might work.  I agree that maybe each patrol could have their troop #.  Maybe rotate responsibility of each weekly troop meeting between the four Scoutmasters.

It's good for Scouts to have choices.  Not every Scout wants/should be in the mega-troop.  Since our troop is smaller, we have more flexibility to do different activities so right now we're doing some more with STEM which is sort of unique.  Don't see that happening with the mega troops.

This is probably going to sound like heresy but our troop is beginning to incorporate more STEM into our troop activities and it seems to be attracting new Scouts and their families.  By marketing "outdoor adventure", I don't think there's a huge amount of interest in that in our area, frankly.  A lot of dads of the Scouts aren't involved for whatever reason (demanding jobs, out of town work travel, general disinterest in Scouts, stated dislike of the outdoors) and therefore it's the moms who tend to bring their sons to troop meetings.  They and their sons are comfortable with STEM and then once they feel comfortable and trust us, then introducing the outdoors becomes more viable.  Out troop actually does a lot of outdoor activities--rock climbing, kayaking, backpacking in the Sierras, hiking, etc.) but it just doesn't seem to be a compelling draw.  The STEM stuff, though, seems to pique their interest.

The City of Arcadia runs Merit Badges at Wilderness Park, mostly Eagle-required ones.  There happens to be an Emergency Preparedness one on September 30 from 9 am to 1 pm.  I wouldn't have known about this except for an extremely astute parent in our troop who managed to ferret this out--and our troop is located in the City of Thousand Oaks!

Here's the link to their site and scroll to the bottom:  https://www.arcadiaca.gov/government/city-departments/recreation-and-community-services/parks-and-facilities/wilderness-park

On the note of having Scouts find out all this information on their own and to show the initiative to do everything themselves...yes, I agree the Scouts should do as much as they possibly can and should take appropriate responsibility.  But, sometimes the Scoutmaster/ASM doesn't have all the answers either, or is busy, or forgets, etc.  I've seen that happen again and again...

I've written a books worth of stuff on this forum for this very subject. I will try and be brief to keep it short (yah right!).

 

At the Cub Level we must understand that while the program is for the boys, success depends on keeping the adults interested. If the adults (parents and leaders) are having fun and enjoying the program, there is a 99% likelihood of the boys reaching Webelos and crossing over to the Troops.

 

In my research, the primary reason for the membership drop at the cub level is adult burnout. Burnout is the loss of motivation and energy to provide a fun program. Five years is way way way too much to expect from volunteers.

 

At the troop level there are two areas of large membership losses.

 

The first is the first year scout. More scouts are lost in this age group than any other age group of scouts in all of the BSA. The reason I found is because the huge jump of a 10 year going from a adult guided lifestyle to a patrol method independent decision making lifestyle is terrifying. Imagine a boy who may have never camped in his life being told to pack up for a campout with a troop of strangers. These boys need some time to spool up the confidence that they are safe in the troop even while setting up a tent in the deep dark woods.

 

The other larger problem I found in my research are the loss of older scouts. I believe the success of the whole troop program is based from the success of the 14 and older part of the program. The over all problem with the 'majority' of troops is they tend to drive their program toward what I call is a First Class Advancement program. The vast majority of the troops activities are designed for scouts to advance up to a First Class level. Actually many troops drive it toward Eagle, but it is the same problem. 

 

A troop that develops activities for advancement works out OK for 10 to 13 year old scouts because they are basically followers and the activities that to them are new and fun. But scouts after puberty have a different natural instinct that drives them more toward taking care of their gang and controlling their future. They simply have the same instincts as adults. The problem with most troops is they don't know how to use that instinct because they still think of older scouts as adolescent boys. So the adults typically assign the older scout to only teach, what, FIRST CLASS SKILLS. Yep, the older scouts are repeating their first three years all over again. Older scouts want responsibility in developing boys into men, not babysitting scouts in classroom type settings.

 

The problem is we are told over and over to let the older scouts teach so they are doing adult responsibilities. But teaching in a class room type of environment isn't really an adult responsibility. It is just plain boring. So the older scouts drop out and the older scouts of the troop don't typically last longer than age 14.

 

Troop adults need to develop the program so that First Class skills are not developed in class room type setting, but instead through passive actions during adventure activities. The program needs to get away from advancement themes so that the scout develop more of their survival skills like backpacking, canoeing, camping, hiking, bicycle riding and on and on. You know, the fun stuff. The older scouts leading those activities don't feel trapped in the same ol same ol program of previous years and they aren't babysitters. The program needs to be developed so that younger scouts learn "everything" from the role models of older scouts. That may sound simple, but it goes against the nature of a protective parent. It takes as much practice for the adults to stand back as it does for scouts to step forward. But in short, it comes down to a fun program. And it's the older scouts who define fun, not the younger ones. Like the Cub program, if the older scouts are excited about the program, the younger ones will follow.

 

That is a very brief in my limited time description of my experience and research of how units succeed and fail. I can fill in the gaps if you would like more detail.

 

Barry

Great analysis...I just posted a reply (well, rant really...) on how our older and small Scout cohort disappeared to the Venture crew and left the younger Scouts (ages 12 and below primarily) high and dry and then one of them came back to get his Eagle at age 17 3/4 and accused the troop of being too adult-led!  Anyway, our troop  is maintaining--not growing, not decreasing.  We're sandwiched between two super-troops of about 100 Scouts each in our area so they tend to attract most Scouts into their orbits.

Yes, it's typical of troops that specialize in streamlining their programs toward making Eagles (Eagle Mills). 14 to 15 are generally the Eagle Mills age of exodus. We have an Eagle Mill in our district that averages about 180 Scouts. Imagine a troop of 180 scouts where the oldest scouts are 15. On the other side though, many of these troops have Venture Crew programs to keep the boys in the program. They are typically heavily adult run (even more than the troop), but some of the crews are successful. Successful being they don't fold inside 5 years.

 

As much as I personally detest these adult run programs, they do have a place in the BSA. There are a large number of families that want this style of a program and the boys do get a pretty good Boy Scout experience. It's not a boy run experience of being accountable for independent decisions. But they are exposed to monthly camping and practicing first class skills. Eagle Mills are better than no scouting at all.

 

Barry

To add on to this, when my oldest son entered his current troop at age 10, there were 9 high schoolers who all Eagled out the year he was there and that left 4-5 older boys (8th/9th grade) who then joined a Venture Crew around age 14 and disappeared for the next two-three years to do Venture Crew activities.  My husband, myself and another three other parents pretty much built up the troop during that time  by doing recruiting, training, planning, etc. with the younger Scouts since we had no older boys there to help.  As they've gotten older, my son's cohort has taken on more leadership and decision-making so that it's more truly boy-led.  One of the four older Venture Crew members who just decided at 17 1/2 that he wanted to become an Eagle but who had been gone for the past two years doing Venture Crew stuff had the temerity to come back to the troop and deliver a soliloquy on how the troop has been too much adult-led!  It took all my emotional wherewithal not to lose it!  I have literally shed tears over this troop and its very existence and it is pretty darn frustrating to hear that kind of criticism from a Scout who should have stayed in the troop and led it instead of laying blame!  Just had to get that off my chest...

Wow, so sorry this has been happening!  This is such a betrayal to your pack.  If I were you, I'd definitely consider moving to another pack if there's one nearby.  However, the woman who's been in charge or had access to money should no longer have access, for sure!  Was she the Committee Chair or Cubmaster?  

This should be reported to your Council immediately.  Just call the # on your council website and ask to speak to the person in charge of your district--the District Executive. Even though you are trying to work this out, again, this woman shouldn't be involved but someone needs to step in as a leader.  

Yep, I see this going nowhere in my locality.  Especially not at the cost.  Kids can take STEM stuff at school, through after school programs, clubs, at local businesses and about 30 other sources.  This would just be one more in that mess.

 

Now, offer program where they can have adventures and go places without their helicopter parents... we get tons of interest in that.

Southpole Scout, -- how do you get "tons of interest" in that?  How do you get that interest?  Do you have a big troop already?  We're in an area that has been aging so the demographic tends to be older empty-nesters because housing prices are so high young families can't afford to move in.  And, we're not getting a lot of new Scouts, even from our feeder pack, which is pretty healthy.  There seems to be a concern that when my husband and I move on, that they feel the troop will lose its rudder and implode.  I don't think that will happen but parents don't want to step up.  They want to go to troops where they can drop off or participate in a limited fashion but not lead.

I am curious about how large some of your troops are.  Our troop is on the small side with about 20-25 Scouts in it and it's almost a given that our Scouts can become an Eagle Scout if they want that to happen.  Not all do but when you have a smaller troop, everyone has a fair chance to get all the rank requirements done because when you go on outings, there are ample opportunities.  And, there are plenty of opportunities for leadership too.  We also happen to have parents who are happy to run Merit Badges during the year (it's a very well-educated bunch) so we have 4-6 per year.  Plus, most Scouts go to summer camp at least 3-4 times during their Scouting career and they usually managed to pick up about 18-20 MBs that way.  We have a nice variety of outings including backpacks, campouts, rock climbing, kayaking, fundraising, flag ceremonies, and other community service.  I'll never forget a Dad who came up to me (his son is 2nd Class) after attending an Eagle COH for first time and asked me "Is it true that just 4-6% of Scouts make Eagle?  I thought everyone did!"  That's because more often than not, in our troop, if a Scout stays for 4-5 years, they have a fair chance of becoming one.  Most parents in our area are on board with their kids becoming Eagle--they realize the benefits so why not?  They have enough issues of being in school districts where kids routinely are getting 4.0s and above.   Anyway, the Scouts still have a great time doing the activities.  Meetings are not always their favorite thing but the PLC has been trying to get more creative.  They're having a pool party and a cook-off in May.  We have other problems like Dads not participating because they don't like camping, or because they are traveling for work to [fill in the blank:  London, NY, Australia, Chicago, San Francisco...] but I'd say overall we run a balanced program that the kids enjoy.

We too have a rather large bank balance that causes Committee Members some dis-ease.  We are in need of a troop trailer as the one we currently have is about 40 years old and shows it.  Even if we buy a used one, we'd still be in good shape.  But our troop is also facing a membership retention/growth issue.  We have a Cub Scout feeder pack and usually the Webelo dens head off to the same troop and it seems that they are often heading to the big troops of 80-100 Scouts where it's a drop-off/BabySitters of America approach.  Parents even say that they don't have time to participate and that they're burned out from Cub Scouts and don't want to do it anymore.  And, we compete with the high level of club sports in the area.  I was just talking to my son's friend yesterday who said he wants to get a water polo scholarship to college and he practices M, T and Thu 6-8 pm plus usually has 2 meets per weekend.  This is year-round.  He's 12 years old. 

So, with just 20 Scouts in our troop and some uncertainty about continued growth, we're undecided as to whether to invest in a troop trailer.

Otherwise, here's what we charge:

$140 registration/dues/renewal

$15-$35 per campout depending where we go.  We are in California and the campsites can get pricey--at some places it's $45/night.  In November when we went to a park that was $45/night, we just ended up subsidizing it and charged everyone $25 for two nights plus food.

Scouts pay for summer camp which varies in cost from $300-$700.

We are going to do some more fundraisers this year than usual (beyond popcorn) to cover the cost of summer camp at Emerald Bay (Catalina Island) which is $679/Scout.  We also pay for 50% of Adult costs for summer camp.  We're planning to do a chocolate bar/candy sale, a Spaghetti Dinner and a Rummage Sale. 

We do poinsettias and it's unbelievable. Find a wholesale nursery in your area and work a deal with them. Tell the nursery you want to piggyback your troop's order on a truck delivery coming to your area. For example, we use a nursery that supplies a major grocery chain. They just throw our plants on the back and then deliver them to us. We then distribute to our customers. We raise about $4,000 or $5,000 a year and we really haven't pushed it. We start selling around Thanksgiving and usually deliver second week of December. 

So, what kind of profit do you make on each plant? Do you sell them door to door, in front of retail outlets?  Thanks in advance!

Southern California Troop for Fall/Winter:

October - Backpack in Ojai

November - Campout and Webelo Overnight at Malibu Creek State Park

December - Rock Climbing and Campout at Joshua Tree National Park

January - Rocket Launch in Mojave Desert

February - Winter Camp

For several years now, our District has been holding a 'Meet the Boy Scout Troops' night, inviting Troops to setup a table to pitch their Troop, and inviting Webelos and their leaders to come and visit the Troops' tables.  The goal is to increase our crossover rate from Cub Scouts into Boy Scouts.

 

I like the idea of a "Meet the Boy Scout Troops" night--I don't think our District does that.  Where is do they meet?  Are there any special activities?  I'd like to propose that idea to our DE.

Getting a flavor of the troop might be best represented by the kinds of activities a troop does.  Our troop tends to do a medium (maybe high?) amount of outdoor activities--3-5 backpacks per year, a kayak overnight, 2 rock climbing trips, 1 rocket launch plus camporee, scout camp, etc.  Our Venture Crew takes older Scouts plus Venture Crew members on high adventure trips.  Two nearby troops to us do very few backpacks--just one a year for one and none for the other.  But our troop and the other two troops I mentioned are about 20-30 Scouts each. 

And you might want to find out the # of Scouts in a troop.  There are pros and cons for big troops versus smaller ones.  A nearby troop of 100+ Scouts often runs 2 trips per month but it is run by an iron-fisted Committee Chair of 30 years so there's very little flexibility in program.  Boy-led that troop is not, but parents like it because they can drop off kids and don't have to participate much and they're promised that their Scouts can get Eagle in 5 years.   So, that might help your son decide which one he joins if he can get an idea of typical activities and number of kids. 

Looking at the Camp Fiesta Island leaders guide, this jumped out--the Burly Boatswain Badge.   Requirements:

 

"Do you think you’ve got what it takes to be burly? Earn the title of Burly Boatswain by participating in

a 4.3 mile run around the island, a night kayak&adventure, a mile swim, and the Salty Sea Dog Canoe

Expedition. Event times are listed on the day-by-day and below. Age 14+.

Tuesday 4:00 p.m. 4.3 Mile Run: (meet at the top of the boat ramp)

Wednesday 9:00 a.m. - 2:00 p.m., Salty Sea Dog Canoe Expedition

Thursday 8:45 p.m. Burley Night Kayak: (meet at the top of the boat ramp)

Friday 4:00pm Mile Swim: (must attend all practices)."

 

And that's just one of many activities.   They have something similar for adult scouters.

 

Frankly, I've never read a camp schedule with so much good stuff--all kinds of different running, snorkeling, boating, swimming, and scuba opportunities.  There's still time for "tie dye" Wednesday as well as a napping badge.   Though they still managed to slip two of the Citizenship MBs on to the schedule, it's difficult to hold that against the camp management.

 

Though I've never been to Camp Fiesta Island, I salute management and staff for putting on a darn good program.

Our troop went to Camp Fiesta Island two years ago and it WAS great!  Lots of Merit Badge offerings and the counselors were fantastic plus they had lots of extra challenges and activities for campers.  I liked that it was a very peaceful bay so water sports were quite manageable, especially to learn how to do rowing, kayaking, small boat sailing, etc. without the challenging waves to contend with such as you find on Catalina Island at times.  Highly recommend!

$140 per year and Scouts pay for outings which vary from $15-$20 for a one-night overnight to $25-$45 for 2-3 night backpacks.  Summer Camp costs covered by Scouts.  Do annual popcorn fundraiser which brings in limited amount ($1500/year) which goes toward equipment, covering adult fees on outings, gas, other expenses like merit badges, patches, patrol and new Scout supplies.  

Have a healthy reserve but need to buy a new trailer as current one is about 40 years old and about to fall apart.  Might end up financing that purchase since we can't cover it in dues and don't want to deplete bank account.

Seems like it would be valuable for networking purposes if there is a way to find any Eagle Scouts in your geographic/business area of expertise.  Could also be good if you wanted to give back to Scouting and wanted to contact people in your area to help out local troops and such...

Hi Gone--great to hear how Facebook has helped your troop!  What is your Facebook page and where is your troop located, if you don't mind sharing?!  

Also located in California; our council announced cost is $2000 for everything which I assume includes airfare but doesn't include any extra tours.  Alot of our Scouts tend to go to Washington DC area either with 8th grade or with families so guessing the added tour was not of interest.  If cost of Jamboree is $950ish and airfare around $500, I wonder what the balance goes toward.  Anyway, my son won't be going to Jamboree next year--seems like it's a lot of time and $.  Our troop doesn't have a history of going so don't know what the benefits really are.  Event seems biased in favor of East Coast troops/councils b/c of its location.

Well, we're working toward being boy-led.  There was a crop of Scouts who Eagled out and then due to lack of recruitment, there were just 6-8 Scouts left in troop and of those, the Venture Crew keeps poaching them.  Due to some significant recruitment efforts, we just bridged over about 8 Scouts this past summer from my son's Webelo Den (helped that I was Den Leader, haha!) and now we have three or four older Scouts (including SPL and sometimes the ASPL) there to guide the new Scouts at any given troop meeting but they are outnumbered.  So, while we're trying to be boy-led, frankly, it's been a bit tricky b/c even the older Scouts, barring the SPL and ASPL, are not that much older.  But, we're working toward being as boy-led as possible.  It's a work in progress...

Sounds like a great outing and thanks for sharing!

Well, just to ease your mind a bit, just two years ago, an 11 year old boy in the Ventura County Council became an Eagle Scout.  This district happens to be the District in which my sons participate and I know it caused a firestorm of protest and agitation, up to the national level.  This Scout was not in our troop and our troop would never sanction an 11 year old boy becoming an Eagle Scout.  The Scout had fulfilled all the requirements BUT from what I understood, that troop with the 11 year Eagle Scout had started having the Webelos work on their Boy Scout requirements and were getting signed off on them even before they had bridged over.  The majority of parents in our area were less than happy that this had taken place and that becoming an Eagle Scout by age 11, while possible, defied the Spirit of Scouting and probably not the right thing in terms of maturity.  Thankfully, he has remained in scouting even after reaching his Eagle rank.

Here's an article link:  http://www.thecamarilloacorn.com/news/2014-11-21/Schools/Teen_is_youngest_Boy_Scout_in_the_nation_to_earn_t.html

So, it's possible to reach Life, or, as noted above, even Eagle by age 11, but it's really a question of whether this fulfills the Spirit of Scouting and whether the Scout is mature enough to attain this rank.   And, if mistakes were made, then let the District know and move forward accordingly.  In my opinion, the important thing to keep in mind is that Scouting helps to mold our future generation into productive, giving members and leaders of society.

Some questions about the Jamboree--do the Scouts have fun overall, even with the long walks to activities?  Do they need to bring their own tents?  If not, what kind of accommodations do they have? Where do they go white-water rafting?  Is Jamboree sort of like a giant Scout summer camp?  Have never gone and I don't think any from our troop have gone, at least not in the past 10 years if not longer.  Our troop is in California so the travel cost and time would be pretty significant.  Thanks in advance for any input!

I currently work P/T in my husband's Managed Service/Computer/Technology business doing marketing although I worked F/T in our business doing marketing, admin and bookkeeping prior to having our two boys. Once the kids showed up, I started working less in the office and more at home.  In addition to working P/T for our business, I also volunteer as Membership Chair/Registrar of troop and de facto assistant to my husband who is the troop Scoutmaster and I also served as Den Leader for two years when my youngest son was a Webelo.  I also run tennis leagues for kids at our local tennis club.