Natalie W

So disappointed and since I started here and we have resolved not to speak of it anymore in pack and I've already whined and been told to get over it and move on, so I know, but so frustrated anyway. Once again my correctly registered son got 'fourth' place in the derby, which they run early in November probably to hide all the mis-registered kids who then would be found out if they actually moved on anywhere. 4th is just 'thanks for participating and not recognized with anything 'extra'. 1st place went to ...yep... 5 year old Kindergarten kid misregistered as first grader who is 6, 2nd place...yep..another mis-registered 5 year old kindergarten and of course 3rd place to mis registered 5 year old...wow..we have so skilled 5 year old in our pack...I guess maybe they really are in first grade with those fine motor skills....I feel like crying. But, my kid eventually cheered up after only a brief period of disappointment and didn't cry like some of the other older boys so I should be proud he can overcome disappointment. This is his last year in the pack and I promise to go away now.

Thanks St0ut717 and SSScout! I think I'm grasping for way in. Maybe to talk myself out of a funk.

My son seems a lot like yours (St0ut717) toward scouting. He might like camping if we ever went. My son is a 'noodler': he doesn't seem to care about anything other than playing with his toys. He seems to enjoy things in the moment but I think if I told him he could never go anywhere again he would just sit at home happily playing with toys though. If I let him he would just play pretend with his toys all day, which he sometimes does on weekends for 6 hours straight. I was hoping out of all the things I stick him in he would LOVE scouting the best and I had high hopes because it sounded great (son-mother friendly activities) and something I could do (unlike if he got into skate boarding or soccer --because I'm overweight with bad knees). He seems to be drifting to Karate which he has just been noodling along in like scouts but now seems to talk about non-stop. Now he is being proactive, practicing, and asking to take another class per week in Karate. Obviously I just sit on sidelines there but didn't have that hope from beginning that it would be great.

SSScout: thanks for the pep talk!!! I needed it.

Sentinel947,

I griped somewhere else about this and was told 'good lord, find another pack if you don't like it' Also I realize now that I probably should have kept my extra negativity to myself and stuck to original post/comment I was replying to about humanist being a religion or not and the one scouter feeling uncomfortable because not religious.

I often hear my teen and his friends say 'I don't need your negativity.' I should take that advice. Like many people on a forum I get myself all excited/worked up/feel whatever I'm going on about is so relevant, profound, to the point and clear that I don't even notice the negativity.

A lot of people in the pack are happy the way it is, btw. Although I think the number one goal of my pack is on getting bodies for maintaining the pack, which is very small.

Why I don't volunteer (then--2 years ago when joined): I was all gung ho as a Tiger parent but when I offered to help they said 'all positions are filled but maybe another year'. Nothing ever opened up. Other parents have wanted to help over the years too but so far only the people in charge run things. One den leader who was involved for a long time without a son (most leaders are related to each other and are grandkids/children of Troop leader) was hoping to move through ranks with her son but the Webelo 1 and 2 leaders who have no kids in pack didn't want to give up their post.

Why I don't try to help plan outings: When my son was Tiger I quickly learned to stop attending anything other than meetings unless I was really gung-ho for it because participation in outings is minimal. My first 4 outings as Tiger parent, which they did speak of the week before the outing as if it is a sure thing, only my son and I showed up for. Only 1 of 9 outings that year had more than 2 kids show up and that was bowling where all showed. Then the following year my son and I were the only ones that went to same bowling event. Then the following year only 1 new, non-relation of the leaders showed up to bowling. Once they talked up an outing and when we showed up they actually had not even booked the venue and of course nobody else showed up, but the venue was great and let us have a group rate. As we were leaving a grandparent leader showed up but said she only came because he grandson was doing something else at the venue next. now, 3 kids showing up is a success.

Why I don't volunteer now (as of few months ago): I found out recently that all but 5 scouts are registered under incorrect birthdays. Most of the leaders and kids are relatives of the Boy Scout Troop leader and register(ed) their kids young (as 5 years old) then hold them out after they do webelos and stick them into the troop as soon as they are 10.5. Many car pool in from over 20 miles away and that is why turn out is low at outings. When you suggest things they never come to fruition because your kid is usually the only one who cares to do them. Plus I think they frown on council activities or anything that might get out how our kids are mostly too young for their grouping. I didn't know this going in but once I found out it did sour me and now I am more bitter and unwilling to help than ever. Now that I know more than half the pack is registered under false birthdays I told the pack I would not be doing any leadership unless they fixed that (using advice I got here) and they said 'that's fine. we have enough leaders. we do it for the boys so just come and have fun'.

I can't find much on them but a cub parent in my pack is saying she might leave and join a group called navigator that is starting at her son's school. What I did read said they were humanist and implied that it was non-religious making them different. The other parent is into camping and our pack doesn't camp. Navigator's according to her and one article I read sounds more camping and less about anything else (so lots of camping, some environmental clean up but none of the religion requirements or citizenship requirements). Actually I think all they do is camp and don't have a 'reward'/requirement structure. I did read somewhere in a 'how we picked and how you can pick the outdoor program that best fits your style' article which listed out generalizations about every outdoor group, many of which I've never heard of, that this navigator group is humanist based and possibly non-religious but maybe associated with a religion united Unitarian: it is the one the person who wrote the article joined and he was an atheist.

I am sticking with cubs but hoping that since my kid doesn't like camping, he will quit this year. I definitely don't think my kid will continue though into Boy Scouts and I'm glad (scouting is not really my thing but his friends convinced him to join)....he probably wouldn't have lasted this long this year (3 months) if the Pinewood Derby wasn't done early in our pack. Only reason I'm considering making him stay is because we paid 200 bucks upfront for this program year, but even that isn't keeping me caring. May be hard to get him to continue after derby. I'm tired of it anyway...going and sitting around for 2 hours every week gets old and honestly I'm starting to despise the weekly cheap crafts that are cluttering up my house (or that don't even make it out of the car so clutter up the back seat).

Pack18Alex,

I think for my situation we have come up with answer, basically telling the leaders we know and parents making own decision on whether to stay or quit, BUT:

What if you call your council today and discover that all these kids who you think are registered honestly under their correct information are in fact really registered as older under incorrect birthdays and grades? Because what you are saying is exactly what parents and some new den leaders have been told in our pack. 'we registered the boys correctly and here is an 'official register' so all is fine.' A den leader has an 'official register' of her den boys that says one boy is a certain age and grade which matches what other parents, the den leader, the boy and his parents all believe are true (and place him as 6 years old just started First Grade having earned Tiger last year), BUT the council has a different age and grade listed. The person we talked to at 'council' said a scout who did not complete Kindergarten and is not yet 7 years old would never get in to Tiger and would not be allowed to earn rank because the computer would not register them and their application would be sent back for verification and correction. This person sent us to a link with an 'official register' of our pack with different information then what the boy, his family say, and his 'official register printout' that the den leader has. So, what would you do then?

(Just so you know, our pack number is not 18 ).

There is definitely one child who is 5 years old and just started all day Kindergarten in September and he is registered as having completed first grade and being age 6 years old and turning 7 in January. There is a 3rd grade child younger than my child who is a Webelo First Year but I have no idea how he is registered or if maybe he skipped a grade or some other factor could be in play. The Wolf den leader has a 'register' (apparently not correct according to the council) that lists one boy as being 6 years old in First Grade but the boy is registered as being in Second Grade. The Kindergarten boy's mom said she would talk to the Cubmaster at next den meeting. The only mess is because some of us found out. My fear is that if the pack found out I will be seen as trouble maker (particularly since I have such a harsh header and clearly don't understand all of what is going on here: the 'cubmaster' I thought was lying is not even the Cubmaster). I wish I didn't know but as my son is registered correctly and seems to like it I'm just going to keep going.

NJCubScouter,

I passed on some info about holding the kids to level to another mom and the Wolf den leader. The Wolf den leader seems to just want to let it slide now since she is moving soon. We talked to the Cubmaster (who actually is not the person I thought it was! I thought another person was the cubmaster who was the leader who asked me to move my boy up to Wolf when first started (the other bear mom says she was asked to move her boy up to when he was in Tiger by the same person who asked me--but he didn't say anything to either of us about changing the birthday). We said it came to our attention that boys under age 7 or who have not completed Kindergarten could not be registered or earn badges but that 'as we all know' some of our boys are in Kindergarten are doing this so we called council to check and learned that at least 2 boys are registered under incorrect birthdays. We said we would be willing to help and one option might be to hold at current level but award rank next year after they complete the correct level of scouting under the new program. The Cubmaster said he would look into it. We have not heard anything back BUT 3 days after we talked to him the pack registered 2 more Kindergarten kids as Tigers. We figure this is their response: basically they are not going to do anything. The Kindergarten (or kids who started in Kindergarten and are now scattered in the older groups) outnumber us so my guess is they are not going to do anything.

The mom, also of a Bear, who first brought it up is probably going to quit. Although she claims learning this just fueled her decision and that she was already looking for a good reason to tell her son to pick another pack or join up a different camping program offered through his school (because our pack is so boring compared to her older boy's experience years ago with a different pack). As I said the Wolf leader is moving so will not be with the pack much longer.

I will probably stay but on the advice of the other Bear mom will not be taking any leadership positions. I have to add because while I do feel like knowing has tarnished Cub Scouting for me (although maybe this is the other Bear mom talking as she used these words too) now that the shock has worn off I now am feeling a 'competitive mom' anger. One of the improperly registered Kindergarten kids beat my child out of the third place trophy last year in our Pinewood Derby and the year before another scout who started early knocked him out too (so far my son has been 4th/'thanks for participating ribbon' every year with one improperly registered scout earning a trophy each year): silly because same principle of do you best/be a good loser should apply and he was but now I'm irritated. Silly but irritating to me. I shouldn't care since my son didn't seem to either (because the pack does an amazing job of making it fun and not about winning or losing) but maybe my son would enjoy scouting more if he actually got to go to camping with his pack or win a trophy or go to summer camp: we are encouraged to do these events as single participants but I'm too intimidated to try that and besides they tell us about them but then we have to go find forms and contacts on our own which is intimidating too. The other Bear parent in the know claimed she was going to summer camp as a single this year but if she quits I guess not. Everything has now taken on a 'tone' with me but maybe that is not it at all: now instead of shock I'm feeling angry. I just feel like the reason our pack doesn't do any of the fun things offered by our Council is that so many of our boys are underage so they don't want anyone to know.

And, of course, all the above might not really by all about age. Many of our scouts live outside the area and attend with grandparents for example and meetings are not near there home. Participation in fund raising is low. Turn out at outings is poor. So it probably is not all about age but now it feels like that.

I'm the mom of one of the Bears. We started as Tiger in First Grade. With a bunch of other First Grade boys. My son has a Fall birthday that meant he joined when he was 6 and turned 7 less than a month later. They told me when we brought snacks that year that he 'is in the wrong group' and should be bumped up to Wolf but I didn't want to because he joined with other First Graders who are part of his afterschool program. The only Wolf at that time was a First Grader who did not live in the area but came with his grandpa who lived in the area. Now my son is a Bear in third grade and age 9. My older and younger son have a 9 year age difference. My older boy is now almost 18 but was in a different cub pack and Boy Scout troop through age 14 when he quit. I never understood the age rules in this new pack based off what the other pack did but went with it because assumed it was just something I didn't get. I couldn't imagine why anyone would lie.

I recently ran into a friend from the another pack/troop who was floored and insisted no 5 year old should ever be in scouts. I mentioned it to a mom from my younger son's pack who has become a friend of mine through this pack. She took over a leadership rule this year as a den leader and had commented about her mixed age den of Wolf boys. Another parent of an 8 year old Webelo 1 (who joined last year as a 7 year old Bear) is also in the know about all this.

Then we saw the new 2015 program changes that say cub scouts are 'eligible for AOL rank when completed 4th grade or been 10 years old for at least 6 months' would apply. Myself and the den leader were not sure how the pack was getting around the age requirement at this point but thought it must be OK since 'council' would know. But now these changes and wording really nagged us.

At this point, 'council' is just some entity and so I was designated to contact someone whose name I randomly pulled off the list. A different person emailed me to call her. This was last week and I've been in a panic since then. She said no kids under 7 should ever be enrolled and that was on registration form. She stated I probably was not understanding that these boys were likely just sitting in on meetings vs being scouts. She was away from computer but called me back 3 hours later to say 'according to our records the youngest member of your pack is TigerCub and he is in First Grade and will be 7 in January'. TigerCub is in is 5 years old according to him and his mom (and all us other parents know it). I stated this was not correct to my knowledge and then I asked specificallyof the boy who earned Tiger last years and who is in Wolf and is 6 years old and in First Grade according to the list which was given to the Wolf den leader. The lady looked him up and said 'no, he is in Second Grade and will be 8 in January'. I didn't know what to say at that point and asked her what we should do if the ages were not correct and she said 'we can't do anything if people lie'.

This was last week. Last night 2 Kindergarten kids joined, TigerCub came with his grandparents last night and when I asked what grade he was in they said 'he is in all day Kindergarten and talked about how he has loved starting school'. I didn't push it or ask anything else. I asked a friend for advice but seriously I've been losing sleep and really paranoid about the whole thing so been looking everywhere for help.

Is it just me or is the fact that the council has one list but the den and actual hands on people know one thing is weird. I never thought about the Charter Organization's role. Maybe the Cubmaster truly believes this because now that I think about it he tells everyone it is fine. If he knew it wasn't then he would probably just sign kids up quietly and not really talk about the ages. Nobody goes in saying 'hey, how old are you? what grade are you in?' The kids maybe ask each other but parents just seem to accept everything is fine. I can't figure out why the two lists: correct ages to hands on leaders but incorrect to district. And why talk about it so much if trying to keep it under the table?

Feeling better but still lots of questions. IF get answers will update.

True, Papadaddy.

That is one of the reasons we were scared to bring it up, even within our pack. It seems like there would be a harsh punishment. But the message I'm getting is it won't be nearly as terrifyingly harsh as we parents imagined (firings, kicking kids out, liable suits, etc...) . And my city, while not Pittsburgh, does have the same district council as Pittsburgh (which is listed as qwase's location!) and that is comforting to know. It's good to know there are options that will allow kids currently enrolled to maintain and participate in some form of program without ruining scouting experience for them. Gives me confidence to at least ask about it and try to end the enrollment of kids outside the age range. Really if would like to stop doing it and that is the biggest concern for me along with how to handle the current group of kids.

thanks for the help everyone! I have asked help of another person I trust and will wait for that advice but this gives me more confidence and courage.

Thanks, qwazse! I needed that for sure.

The kids do have a great time. The parents and leaders are nice and well intentioned. The young boys are sweet and thrilled to be scouts. Plus it is cute to see the Tigers falling asleep at the tables during den meetings, even last night when rest of pack is hammering away on a building kit!

We are a small pack and some of the leaders are really invested in keeping the pack charter that's been around for a long time. I think we are just panicking because our kids do enjoy it and have fun but that we also have this impression of Scouting at district/national level of being rigid and unbending. It was sort of 'unintentionally' let out of the bag/discovered about the DOB not being correct. So we panicked especially with all the trustworthy talk going on now as our pack is gearing up to learn the Boy Scout Oath and Law updates. those of us who know don't think the pack is really open to change because Kindergarten enrollment is probably the only way the pack is going to keep getting numbers for younger groups but scared it will impact everyone negatively if not corrected.

Yes losing a child would be least of worries!

IT would be especially hard to lose anyone in the woods, especially since the pack does NOTHING outdoors, unless it you count playing tag outside after the meetings (which is not allowed anyway as many parents have 10-20 mile drive and sleepy kids) or occasionally grilling hotdogs on a grill in the parking lot of our sponsor organization! In two years we have never done a camp out or real in woods hike. Actually for Tiger my boy got to count walking less than a block to the Firehouse visit as his hike with the den because he missed the official hike around the block that year. Many kids in our area join a larger pack (over 100 scouts) that does a TON of camping. Our pack is mostly an art club. My kid has special needs so we joined this small one for less chaos. Every den meeting is spent working from book or doing a kit of some sort. Almost nobody attends outings due to distance of many of our members from the pack location. Usually the local boys (the 4 Bears and 1 Webelo) are the only ones who show up to non-den meetings and generally we all do not all show up for same ones. I've been many outings (bowling was an awkward one) where my son is the only one who showed.

What you all are saying is 'it is not THAT big a deal'. Fess up and calm down. If we can keep the current members it shouldn't matter so much next year if we only manage 1 or 2 Tigers.

They are actively recruiting Kindergarten kids and telling parents this is OK. I could see it as a mistake or, as I thought, some rule I did not understand about turning 6 during Scout year but why are the birthdates then different for council? I think they really are fudging the birthdates to keep enrollment up: otherwise we would have no Tigers this year, 1 Wolf, 4 Bear, 0 Webelo first year, and 1 Webelo second year who is actually a 4th grader who will be 10 next month (so not even sure that is correct but he IS on track to earn AOL and cross over). Overall I think I agree with jblake47 that since council was told about the concerns we can let it go. At least that makes gives me comfort we are not doing anything 'illegal'. The actual council response we got was, 'we can only go by what the registration says and can't help it if people lie'.

Parents who know are mainly worried it would cause pack to be shut down. Or, about disaster scenarios that really aren't likely. The what ifs are plaguing us parents. the Cubmaster's boy actually crossed over to Boy Scouts 2 years ago. So, what if he leaves and new Cubmaster wants to change everyone to correct birthday? What if a 6 year old, First Grade Wolf gets lost in woods and makes national news and everyone questions his age and why he got registered?

I guess as long as parents (if they bother to question us, lie about the DOB then everything should be fine, well even if they don't and say it was a mistake, though it would be hard to justify a mistake by 7 of 13 parents). The members are from all over the place (different schools, grandchildren of the BSA leader, some live 10-20 miles from pack but come because they know BSA leader who lives in area).

They signed up 3 new boys yesterday: two are 5 years old in Kindergarten as stated by their parents when they introduced themselves and the boys. One of the new boys was transferring to Wolf from a different pack and was in Second Grade and met the correct age requirements. The mom said she was excited to learn their Kindergarten son could join too.

Anyway the Cubmaster tells the parents it is OK to be this way. That would be a mistake if they really were listing the kids correct birthdays and council missed it. It would also make since if the parents filled out application incorrectly (on purpose or by mistake) but if so then why do they tell everyone their kids are Kindergarteners.

All our Tigers are Kindergarten this year, Wolf is mix of First and Second grade boys age 6-8, Bear just happens to be all Third Graders (3 are 8 the whole scout season and my son turned 9 right away after the start), Webelo is mix of Third Grader and 4th grade (my son is actually older then both Webelo 1 boys and in class at school with another Webelo (who joined this year as a Bear but the pack switched him to Webelo). The parents of the 5 year old, myself and everyone were told it was OK to have Kindergarten/5 year olds in the pack. We do not 'hide' it. The den leader of Wolf knows who the first graders are. If you walked into our meetings and asked we would all tell you this and most would justify it using what we have been told: turning 6 during program year is allowed for Tiger rank.

I guess since council now knows what is going on we are covered. Or, if they don't care. 7 of 13 'mistakes' looks suspicious to me. In short best option is to shut up and go with it. or move to another pack if worried.

I was talking to a friend whose son joined another pack about how young our newest members are. They stated this is not allowed. All our Tiger cubs are Kindergarten children and all are 5 years old. Parents have confirmed this to me and a den leader for Wolf states that she has children who received their Tiger badge last year as Kindergarten kids who are now age 6 and in First Grade. When a group of us contacted council about our concerns we discovered that the Kindergarten kids were registered under incorrect birthdays. Not sure what to do now.