Lenae

I second the recommendation for a designated sibling watcher. A small craft, game, toys, books, etc. The siblings should be in a different room, if possible. If that isn't possible, do your best to physically separate them from the rest of the group. My daughter is now a Cub, but has been tagging along with me to all of my now AoL scout son's meetings. I have a large den of very active boys, and keeping the meetings entertaining and educational meant not having younger siblings around causing distractions. If the siblings are just a year or two younger, and therefore more able to participate without problems, then I'm okay with them joining in. But preschool aged little ones won't be able to participate without distraction, they're just too little. Also, a little thank you gift for the babysitting mom like a coffee house gift card, is always nice. 

In regards to the "program year" the official Cub Scouts website listed the start time as fall 2018, so I assume they mean September.

My social media accounts have been blowing up, and I'd say that just a little more than half are in support. I suppose that info comes with a bucket of salt though, being as I am a late 20s something woman, and I think the younger generation is more in favor of this change than the older folks, and I know at least 10-15 MOTHERS who would gladly step up to be den leaders for new all-girl dens. So that probably skews my statistics, much like anyone's demographics skew their stats.  

https://cubscouts.org/cub-scouts-welcomes-girls-to-expanded-programs/

Edited to add link

Only if units are all girl or all boys. At that point why open Boy Scouts to girls? Separate but equal?

 

@@RememberSchiff, Had to laugh at that BSA report.No way any camps we go to are set up for girls.

Well, I can only offer my point of view, but here is how I see it.

I would like to point out again, that I'm not necessarily for coed BSA, I'm also not necessarily against it. But if I were to be in favor of it, my main reason is the programming. Not to have my daughter spend all her time with boys in a pack or troop, or to have my son spend all his time with girls in a pack or troop. I see the merit of having single gendered packs/troops. Boys able to be boys without worrying about girls. Girls able to be girls without worrying about boys.

The BSA far and away offers the kind of character development I'm looking for, for BOTH of my children. GSUSA does not work for my family, and speaking with the other parents of daughters I know who would be in favor of opening up BSA membership to girls, it doesn't work for many other families. So yes, separate but equal would be a wonderful solution, IF I were to be in favor. Which, I don't know if I am or not. 

Before ANY discussion can start about girls in Boy Scouts, local councils would need to address how they will deliver the Scouting program at their summer camps. Right now many camps barely have the facilities to accommodate female Scouters, let alone a whole troop of girls (or even a mix of girls).

 

I know my own council camp has trouble with even adults using the "flip the shingle" gender-use sign. Imagine all male units having to change their whole mind set around toilet and shower sharing.

 

You can't just flip a switch and become coed. Venturing has taught us that. There has to be significant thought given to facilities and whether or not there is adequate infrastructure to accommodate coed Scouting.

I'm in the PNW, most of my councils camps already offer girls weeks of summer camp, and do so successfully, so why not alternate weeks for camp? One week boys, the next girls, the following boys, then girls, and so on. Is there a reason that wouldn't work?

I still think that the BSA could easily get ahead of this by just offering to charter girls only packs & troops.  If girls want into the program, let them into the program.  This is easy to solve.

 

All the BSA is really doing is providing the framework for the program - it's up to local units to implement it.

If I were to envision the BSA allowing girls in, this is how i would like to see it be done. A charter org could choose whether to offer a boys pack/troop, a girls pack/troop, or both a boys pack/troop and a girls pack/troop. They wouldn't be coed units, they would exist autonomously from one another. If units wanted to work together to run certain events, say a Pinewood Derby or a fundraiser, together, then allow them to do so, but the units would stay single gendered. Council events would be coed, but camps could run with boys weeks and girls weeks. I said before that I am torn on the issue, and I am. I love the program and everything it offers my son, and in theory I'd like my daughter to have the same opportunities. However, I wouldn't want to fundamentally change the program, and I think coed units would do that.

If you are not using the handbooks, how are your running the scouting program?

 

I use the handbook and the leader guide to plan meetings and outings. I haven't asked the boys to read their books, or read passages to them. As a matter of fact, I hardly use the leader guide to plan den meetings anymore, and haven't since Wolf year. I feel like the meeting plans dumb down the information and treat the boys like they are younger than they are. We've had much more success keeping the boys interested with using the actual handbooks (not the leader guide) to plan our meetings. My husband is my assistant den leader, and he's a very animated, funny guy. He's good at making the material that I've put together fun and engaging, and does a better job presenting the material than the leader guide does.

I've been a den leader for three years now, my sons den. Started as Tigers, now they're Webelos scouts. We hardly ever utilize the rank handbooks, and I honestly feel like it's a disservice to the boys. I know that some of what is in the book is fluff, but there is quite a bit of good info in them. I know, because I read my son's book every year. So, my question is, do you, my fellow den leaders, use your handbooks? If yes, how? Do you read them during the meeting out loud, or have boys read pertinent sections? Do you assign the pages you're covering as homework before a meeting? I'm just not really sure how to implement this, but I know it's something that needs to happen. My den is 10 boys, and they tend to be wild. We have a difficult time making meetings interesting enough to keep them engaged without adding any reading, which is honestly the number one reason we haven't successfully included book usage. We started the year off last year (as Bears) reading portions of the book that we were covering, but we would lose the boys SO quickly when we did that, it only lasted a few meetings before we scrapped it altogether. Thoughts?

I'm torn on the allowing girls in issue. I will, however, say that I personally believe the reason that girls are clamoring to join the BSA and the opposite isn't true of the GSUSA, is because the BSA offers a far superior program. Girl Scouts do crafts, learn how to be feminists, and SELL COOKIES. That's most certainly not anything my daughter wants to be involved with, however she'd love to become a Cub Scout like her brother, and have opportunities like BB gun shooting, archery, panning for gold, woodworking, fishing, hiking, camping, etc. The BSA may be a boys character development program, with an emphasis on the outdoors, but there just isn't anything comparable for girls, which is why many girls would like to see it become coed. 

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I definitely have more research to do. I would like to say that our "assistant" den leader is a dad to one of our (soon to be) Webelos, and also the dad of a Boy Scout. He has BALOO training, and would be actively involved in the trip.

I still don't know if backpacking is allowed or not! I called my local council and they brushed me off, again. Our pack does pack wide campouts in the fall and spring, with a winter overnight activity indoors typically. We do day hikes as a pack once every couple of months or so. I'd say as far as packs go, ours does a pretty good job of keeping the outdoors an important part of our program. My den does a lot of outdoor stuff, and we are all, parents and Scouts, really looking forward to having the option to do den campouts, too. We have 9 Scouts in our den, and they all enjoy the camping and hiking aspects of Scouts, so they would definitely view backpacking as an adventure.

I guess I'll just keep digging for information, and see what I can come up with. Thanks again!

Thank you for the infograph. I've never seen that before! Looking at it though, just brings more questions. Under the camping category, it says family camping is only allowed at council designated locations. Does that mean our pack summer campout has to be at a council owned property? Also, it says Webelos are allowed to go on den overnights, but not weekend overnights. Does that mean multiple night campouts are not allowed?For any age? I'm more confused now than I was before I started looking!

Hello! I'm a regular reader around here, but I don't post often. I joined the forum when my son started as a Tiger, and now he's a Bear, soon to become a Webelos scout. My husband and I are co-den leaders, and we have another parent we consider an assistant den leader. We are backpackers, and we've tossed around the idea of backpacking with our Webelos den. Our assistant leader is keen on the idea, as well. I know that Webelos dens are allowed to camp on their own, not only with the pack, but I've been coming up empty on finding answers as to whether they can go backpacking. We'd obviously keep it age appropriate, a couple of miles of easy terrain at the very most, and make sure the boys weren't carrying too much weight. But I don't want to start any kind of planning until I find a definitive answer on whether it's allowed or not. So, does anyone know if it is in fact allowed, or can point me in the direction to find out for sure? I've put a call into my local council, but they gave me a bit of the run around last week, before telling me they'd have someone contact me when they had an answer. No call so far. 

I'm coming to this thread late, but I am a leader in a FG troop that another Cub Scout Mom and I started, while also being a Bear den leader. We do not run the two programs concurrently, however we do often combine events, like movie nights and allowing our FG to join in Pinewood Derby and the like. It's working out very well for us so far, hopefully it will run as smoothly for you, @@Cubmaster Pete.

I think the best way to retain the older boys is helping them to focus on the moving to Boy Scouts aspect. I know with our pack, when boys become Webelos, they start that summer doing things more like Boy Scouts, planning their own campouts that aren't the usual family camp outs, and things like that. By December, our Webelos 1s are already starting to visit troops and join them for actives. By the Webelos 2 (Arrow of Light) year, the boys spend more of their time visiting troops and functioning as a "patrol" than as a den. When the Webelos years roll around, the boys start getting much more autonomous from the pack. So they spend their Tiger-Bear years functioning as Cubs in a pack, and their two years as Webelos with one foot in Cubs and the other foot in Boy Scouts. We only had one of about a dozen boys choose not to continue into Boy Scouts at our last crossover.

We aren't a large pack, but we run a fun program and our den leaders (I am one) have a lot of free reign to make the program as awesome as we can, and we do. If you keep the older boys interested by allowing them to act like older boys and not like Tigers, you're going to have happier boys, for sure.

Interesting, from the Frontier Girls website:

 

 

I'm with @@mashmaster here, sounds a lot like the AHG to me. One is "Biblically based", the other is "Christ centered". Both say they are open to any girl that can follow the oath/promise and creed.

 

I don't see how you can be "Biblically based" yet be really open to all faiths and religions. When they say "all", are they really meaning "all flavors of Christian"? How does a Hindu girl fit into a Biblically based program? If I was a Muslim or Hindu I would be asking a lot of questions before allowing my daughter to join such a group. But after asking those questions, hopefully I would be pleasantly surprised.

 

From a quick glance at their website, it's hard to tell what their "traditional values" are. They say they don't like the current GSUSA program, but don't say what about it bothers them. Is it the lack of outdoor focus or the fact they don't condemn gays? Maybe the answers are on their website, I didn't spend that much time going through it.

 

The whole "we encourage interaction with other scouting organizations" bit sounds really interesting (especially the sharing of requirements part). Frontier Girls might turn out to be a good fit for cub packs that are looking for a way to get girls involved. Form a FG unit for the girls, and do joint activities (pack meetings, derbies, outings, etc.).

I think being Biblically based means exactly that. Their creed is based on the fruits of the spirit from the Bible, but it isn't a direct Bible verse. So, being biblically based and teaching love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control doesn't exclude Muslim girls or Jewish girls, or Buddhist girls. It just means that the program was written from the perspective of the Bible.

As far as sharing requirements with other scouting programs, it's working out really well for us. All of the leadership in our brand new troop are parents of female siblings of our Cub Scout pack, so that works out well for being able to use family campouts (just an example) to work on multiple badges for the girls and adventure belt loops for the boys.

From Wikipedia;

"The term Judeo-Christian groups Judaism and Christianity, either in reference to their common origin in Late Antiquity or due to perceived parallels or commonalities shared between the two traditions."

I wasn't saying that Judeo-Christian values are 1) not controversial, or 2) the only values or belief system that is valid. I was saying that the group is based on Judeo-Christian values, and therefore the basis of their idea of "controversial" would stem from that place. As far as I know, Muslim girls would be welcome. There are references to God in their program, much like the BSA, but no strict definition of God.

As far as competition for American Heritage Girls, I suppose it could be that. However, AHG is a strictly Christian based program, whereas Frontier Girls is more accepting of various religions and religious beliefs. The founder of Frontier Girls started when her Mormon friend wasn't comfortable taking the AHG pledge, according to the website.

Sounds interesting. 1200 badges. Wow. But none "controversial", what does that mean? As proven on this forum EVERYTHING is controversial, from mosquito netting to footwear to breastfeeding and beyond.

You won't find a badge for breastfeeding, or gender identity studies. They are founded on Judeo-Christian values, and that's what their basis of controversial is going to be on. Believe it or not, the adult leaders I've associated with since beginning this journey have been absolutely drama free, including the FB group they run.

This probably isn't terribly on topic, but I've found an alternative to GSUSA that is run pretty similarly to the BSA in terms of the youth programming; Frontier Girls. They are a merit badge based scouting program, with emphasis on patriotism, service, and skills based knowledge. I, along with a friend whose son is a Cub in my sons pack, have started the process of forming a troop locally. So if any of you, or your wives, are tired of GSUSA, maybe look into Frontier Girls as an alternative.

In our council, Cub day camp and resident camp is offered from Tigers to Web II, but it's suggested that Tigers attend day camp, Wolves and Beats attend a 3 day, 2 night resident camp, and Webelos attend a 5 day, 4 night resident camp. Our pack, however, keeps Wolves at day camp, and Web I with the Bears at the 3 day, 2 night camp, and only the Web II boys go to the longer resident camp.

For my family, Saturday "camps" wouldn't work, and I can't imagine too many people wanting to devote several Saturday's of the summer solely to day camps. Carving out a week seems reasonable enough, but losing several weekends would be enough for my family to say no.

I apologize if this has been discussed recently, but I browsed and bit and did a forum search and came up with nothing. Did the online leader specific training for Cub Scout den leaders disappear with the new program starting? I found a sort of downloadable training, but it was just for den leaders in general, not each den specifically. I want to be sure I'm up to date with what's available before reading through this training bit. 

This is between you and your den chief!

We don't have a den chief.

I think it's a good idea to deprive the boys of doing a second fun skit.  As long as the boys are just there to get credit and a pin, having  fun is just a side benefit along the way.  I think you husband is totally 100% correct, every short cut one takes teaches the boys that get the prize first are the true winners.  On the other hand, if you think the program is meant to just have fun, you could probably do it your stupid way.

 

@@Lenae I sure hope you realize my answer is dripping with sarcasm.

I'm fluent in sarcasm, so I do understand the gist of your response, and I do agree with you.

I will note, however, that we have three (of seven) boys who loathe public speaking. It's worse than pulling teeth to get them to take part in a skit or song. They're otherwise well rounded, happy Cubs, ready to participate, so it's not something we feel a real concern about, but my husband's line of thinking is the fewer skits they are required to participate in, the better. To this point, we've tried hard to help them either think of something they're comfortable with doing in the skit, like a non speaking part, or make sure their speaking part is very small. When we do optional skits and songs, like for meetings, they aren't obligated to participate. This is simply where my husband is coming from.

I think we can just continue to offer smaller parts to the three boys who don't like doing skits, and still fulfill the requirements in the spirit that they were written.

In planning out the years meetings coming up, and also reviewing requirements completed at day camp, I've noticed at least one instance of repeat requirements for Wolf. Call of the Wild adventure calls for a den skit or song of some sort to be performed at a campfire program. Then later in the book, Howling at the Moon adventure also calls for a skit to be performed. Does one skit count for both requirements? My husband and I, co-den leaders, disagree on this. He thinks that one skit should count for both, I think that technically that might meet the most basic sense of the requirement, it's not really in the spirit of the adventures. What say you?

Yes, we're Den 1; the Bulldozers. Our boys aren't having any luck coming up with ideas. The adults are pooling their creative juices and not coming up with much either. My googling hasn't turned up anything that really interested the boys.

I'm not particularly creative, and am having some trouble coming up with ideas for our den yell for camp. Our den will be the bulldozers, so that has to be incorporated in some fashion. The boys are all Wolfs and Tigers and only two have been to camp before, so they're having trouble coming up with anything as well. Creative minds out there with some cool ideas? So far we're going with the old stand by "everywhere we go, pleople wanna know, who we are" one, but most of the boys think it's too common to use. I'm stuck and I need help!

My son is currently a Tiger, and joined in the spring last year. He attended day camp with the boys who were Tigers/becoming Wolves. We had three Tigers go, obviously a parent accompanied each boy. It was fine. My son had a great time, and I know the other two boys did as well. They had no trouble keeping up with the other boys in most activities (they did have trouble with knot tying) and weren't any more tired than the other exhausted boys there. We were one of the few packs though that did bring Tigers.