Myboy

One more thing. If it so happens that my son is given a BOR without a scoutmaster's conference, does that mean he'll be deprived of an ECOH. I'd hate to see that happen.

Very long time lurker, MB Counselor, Committee Member, Den Leader, parent, and longstanding Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow member who has heard of this situation one too many times to not finally express an opinion...

 

 

"You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around"

 

To the careful reader/observer, the quote above from a prior commenter is very telling indeed.... this type of gleefully being primed for a fight should have no place in Scouting on any level by any adult, least of all a SM. Not very attractive nor honorable.

 

If this young man has completed his requirements in good faith, has participated in good faith to the best of his abilities within the parameters of his physical abilities and other obligations, especially academic obligations which as a high school student may be exerting a tremendous pressure on him, then perhaps it's time for the Scoutmaster to move along and find other avenues within which to express his ego and need to dominate the underlings.

 

Instead of giving him a hard time over exacting attendance requirements which he may simply be unable to meet at this stage of his schooling, look at him holistically - does he LIVE Scout spirit? Have YOU as his leaders been successful in instilling the VALUES of Scouting, as demonstrated in his everyday life? Does he set an example to his high school peers by maintaining good grades and lending a hand to those who struggle? Does he have good relations with his teachers and mentors? How easily can he get letters of recommendation, from how many people in the community outside of Scouting, and what are the contents of those recommendations - non-commital or impressively glowing - and how consistent are they? Does he regularly and willingly without duress attend to the obligations of whatever faith he may follow? Does he share his time and talent with his faith community? Does he have a job? Was his Eagle project thoughtfully conceived, significant and touch people's lives by serving a real need, whether it involved a million hours or not to complete? Not everyone has to build a bridge in the woods, clear fifty miles of trails, or involve fifty people to be "worthy". Look at the VALUE it brings and the depth of maturity it took to conceive instead.

 

Has he done anything other than not meeting your stringent and most probably arbitrary attendance requirements to displease or dishonor the troop - such as have a driver license suspended, get a girl pregnant, do drugs, take alcohol or smoke pot where it is illegal, drop out of school without cause, have someone sue him, especially if these things have been very public or in the newspaper? Does he lie, steal or cheat his way to success? Has he used profane language when addressing peers or adults? Has he physically or verbally hurt or threatened another Scout or caused a safety hazard on a campout? Is he a bully? Has he been involved with the police or court system? Can the SM or other adult leaders answer NO to all these questions regarding their own behaviour in their past youth or now as adults?

 

If the answers above are yes and no to the appropriate questions, then CELEBRATE the wonderful job YOU have done to help him become that honorable type of person, instead of looking to nit-pick technicalities and artificially stand in his way to make yourself feel powerful and important.

 

With the year after year decline in overall Scouting membership numbers nationwide, SIX percent decline this year alone, wouldn't it be better for the survival of the organization you all claim to love so much to help an honorable young man achieve his long-term goal, deepen his love for the program and have him look with fondness toward the day he might have a son of his own to introduce to the program, perhaps becoming involved as an adult to lead the next generation of Scouting forward? OR is it better to take a good kid who may not be YOUR perfect, ideal Eagle and make him bitter and resentful forevermore?

 

Having worked with a number of them myself, I acknowledge there are wonderful Scouters and SM's out there. Those Scouters are owed a tremendous debt of gratitude by the Scouts they work with selflessly and by their parents. Increasingly though, and very distressingly, I am more and more frequently running across narcissistic, egotistical, power-tripping, head-game playing, passive-aggressive, subtly-bullying, hostage-taking, gate-keeping, boy-leadership usurping SM's who have completely lost sight of who and what this program is supposed to be about. It is particularly infuriating when these behaviours are committed by a SM who is himself NOT an Eagle. To them I say, you should be ashamed of yourselves and the sooner you move along the better, for the good of the boys you are negatively affecting and the Scouting organization as a whole. I encourage you to re-read the guide to advancement - it is clearly stated you don't get to gate-keep a Scout from becoming an Eagle because he does not live up to some fantasy ideal you have of what a "worthy" Eagle is - that is not your prerogative. Particularly for older Scouts, it explicitly states that a Scouts outside obligations, accomplishments, and service are to be counted toward whether he is active and spirited.

 

Ask yourself, who is truly living Scout Spirit? Who is truly making it ugly? Who is truly doing the stomping around? And more importantly, WHY?

 

Original poster, if your son can look himself in the mirror and honestly know he EARNED that rank, then teach him to respect himself enough to respectfully not take no for an answer and pursue what is rightfully his without indulging the fancy of this SM's ego. Remind him this an opportunity to learn to deal with this type of difficult personality which he will certainly encounter in the real work-world. It is unfortunate he has to encounter it so early within the supposed safety-net of Scouting. Don't let it get him down. And certainly don't be intimidated by words such as "You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around". Because that is what they are counting on and how they flourish in acting inappropriately. Oh, and anything you might agree to, GET IN WRITING with a specific deadline - concrete things that are not open to their subjective interpretation, so they cannot employ their favorite trick of all - running out the clock to the eighteenth birthday. Been there, done that, seen it all from both sides.

 

Best of luck to both of you.

 

- BoyLedMyEye

What Q said. Twocubdad's son is an adult and professors can do whatever they want. Your son is not an adult and scoutmasters cannot do whatever they want, and this scoutmaster is out of line.

 

If your son doesn't mind playing the SM's games, then that's that. If he does mind, like Q said, he'll just have to call the council and start the appeal process.

My 17-yr-old self would have hit reply all and let the SM know that he does not have the authority to do what he's doing but that I'm a reasonable guy and will camp 3 more times in addition to the a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m activities that I had already participated in, and wished he'd been there to see how active I am.

My son called home from college the other day complaining about his physics professor. He just got his first test back on which he made a 55. Not to bad considering the average for the class was less that 50 and no one passed, according to the professor. And there is no curve . If he makes 100 on the remaining three test and the final he still makes a B. According to him, the test is a common on for all sections of the course offered by a number of different professors. Unfortunately, his professor covered only a portion of the material in class. The practice test his professor distributed only covered those topics the professor covered in class, Hardly seems fair, huh?

 

So his options are to file a complaint against the professor, informally whine to the department chair, or have me call and raise Cain with the university over the shabby treatment my son is receiving, pointing out that I'm paying $20,000 a year and expect better instruction.

 

Instead, my son, an Eagle Scout, has done the following: 1) he has signed up for tutoring for the course, 2) he's found when other sections of the course are being taught and is planning on auditing the classes taught by other professors, 3) he's figured out how to download course materials and study guides from all the other professors, and, 4) he spoke to the graduate assistant who teaches his lab for the course and found out that the exams are all based on the textbook and that he should focus on that, not the materials the professor gives him.

 

So, Myboy, my boy, what lessons do you want your son to gain from this experience? How do you want him to handle similar situations in, say, September?

Well my son finally received an e-mail from the scoutmaster. He said he wants my son to do three more overnight campouts to fulfill his "active in the troop" requirement. He also copied all the assistant scoutmasters on this e-mail. Is this reasonable? That would mean my son would have to do weekend campouts in April, May, and June. (there is no campout in March). My son completed all his requirements in October, and he won't have his scoutmaster conference until June. This seems unreasonable. I read on the BSA website that doing a percentage of outings is NOT a requirement for being "active in the troop".

He participates in all activity in the troop including helping younger scouts, fund raising, service projects, community service, etc. The scoutmaster doesn't see this, as the only activity the scoutmaster attends is weekend campouts. I have never seen the scoutmaster at a service project, or fundraiser. In fact, in all the time I have been at the troop, I have never seen the scoutmaster help at any eagle project or even attend Scout-o-Rama.

Okay. I just read what "MyBoy" wrote on Sunday 9:02pm. ... "He said in a meeting a few weeks ago to all the scouts 'no camp out, no rank advancement'. I'm pretty sure that's his beef."

 

Yeah, that's an SM trying to solve a perceived problem using authority he does NOT have. You want scouts to camp. Make it interesting. Make it new and exciting. Make it well organized.

 

Scoutmasters can NOT use their advancement as a tool to manipulate.

 

Please note that there are zero camping requirements for Star, Life and Eagle. Potentially, you can complete all camping related activity BEFORE earning Tenderfoot. Requirements for 2nd class and 1st class say "since joining the troop....". Star, Life and Eagle have no such requirements. Merit badges can be completed at any time.

 

As posted, your situation is addressed in section 4.2.3 of http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf. Troops can require a level of participation BUT there are limits.

 

- Is it written down? Was it written down and communicated BEFORE you son earned his Life rank. Advancement requirements apply based on the start of the next rank. So those expectations written down and communicated on or before your son had his Life rank board of review (not court of honor).

 

- If it was documented, but had changed since he joined the troop, you might be able to challenge that troop expectations have shifted and it was not a commitment he agreed to when he joined the troop. Was he supposed to quit the troop and his friends because the troop leadership had a new plan?

 

- Is it reasonable? 100% is absolute and by definition not reasonable. Period.

 

You might face arguments that POR was not completed because he did not camp. If that is the case, it is the responsibility of the scoutmaster to communicate that early and during the POR. Otherwise, the scout has completed his POR time requirement.

 

GTA section 4.2.3 is so so so written for this type of situation.

“2014 will put the outing back into Scouting†They will be camping 11 times per year.

Need to have Scouts go on the outing to “build men of character†no matter the location of the outing.

This came directly from the scoutmaster.

My son has come this far and does not have time to go on campouts every month. He has fulfilled his requirements. Holding him hostage to go on more campouts is unfair. I will speak to the scoutmaster tonight, however, I know he's going to want my son to campout with the troop until his 18th birthday. My son had plans of going for his bronze palm, but I fear this has soured his outlook on scouting.

It sounds like the SM's problem is your son's level of activity over the past 2 years. That raises some questions: How active has your son been? Has the SM spoken to your son about his level of activity in the past 2 years, or only just now? Were the "things to do" that the SM kept giving your son part of his Position of Responsibility, and if so did he do them? Was your son's effort in his PoR (which fell in that 2-yr period) acceptable to the SM, if not did he meet with your son to correct him during his term in the PoR?

 

Before your son and/or you approach the SM, you both (both, not just you, he's a big boy now) need to read the Guide to Advancement so that you have a clear understanding of the rules, what the SM is allowed to do, what he's not allowed to do, and what options are available to you if the SM doesn't budge (if he is wrong in the first place).

You can find the Guide to Advancement here for free (PDF): www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf‎ If the SM's games are over your son's activity level, pay particular attention to section 4.2.3.0 Sections 8 and 9 deal with boards of review and the Eagle rank.

 

Is it possible the SM is testing your son?

By telling him he's "not worthy"?

One of our best (active, avid camper, taught the young kids) scouts came to us from another troop at 17 because his SM had told him he'd "never be an Eagle." Guess who was wrong.

Thanks Tim. I will approach the scoutmaster at the next meeting. If I don't get any satisfaction I will go around him to the district. There always seems a rush to push kids to eagle when their 18th birthday is approaching, however, when kids get thing done early, the troop drags their feet.

My son has been in scouts for almost 12 years starting as a tiger cub. He has been in two boy scout troops and is now trying to get eagle. He has completed all the requirements for eagle: 6 months of leadership, 40 merit badges, signed off service project. He is a senior in high school and has 6 months until his 18th birthday. He has been trying for 4 months to get his eagle conference scheduled with his scoutmaster and the scoutmaster keeps delaying things, giving him more things to do each time he asks for a conference. In fact he told my son "you're a good kid, I'm just giving you a hard time." He then wanted a list of activities he has done with the troop since becoming a life scout 2 years ago. My son gave this to him, but he through it down, saying "this is a joke". When my son came to the car after the meeting he told me the scoutmaster said he's not worthy to be an eagle scout. My son was devastated! The scoutmaster wants him to continue with the troop for the next 6 months going on campouts every month and being active. He is a senior in high school and does not have the time to devote to scouting, but he has completed all the requirements he needs for eagle. I'm frustrated, and feel my kid is being treated cruelly. What should I do?