ParacordMan1220

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The fixed blade restriction is a 1980s leftover from camps restricting the large blade survival knives made popular by the Rambo movies. Cheap copies were easy to get at the time and a lot of boys had them. Some of them were large enough to compete as a machete. They weren't restricted because they were more dangerous,  the restrictions were based on the military image they portrayed, which the BSA tries hard to stay away from. Sadly, all fixed blade knives were the casualty of the restriction. Ignorance (I know mods hate that word) kept the myth alive, but surprisingly, common sense seems to have prevailed and acceptance of the fixed blade is coming back.

Barry

It always sounds funny to me when the BSA mentions to stray away from a military image. After all, that is where their origins begin. Maybe if we'd go back to the tradition, things would might better organized.

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, they can call law enforcement on you for trespassing if you don't follow the rules. We had a group at camp setting off fireworks, and they were kicked out of camp. Another time one "Scout" was causing so much trouble at summer camp, that the SM wanted him gone and contacted the parents. When the parents said no, they would not pick him up, it went to the camp director. Camp director discussed it with the parents and gave them  a time limit to settle their bill, come home from their second honeymoon at Disney, and pick up the "Scout." Otherwise he would be turned over to authorities as trespassing.

I can see that. However, that's a bit of a stretch for carrying an unapproved knife in an outdoor environment. LE would probably chuckle at that one

16 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Cultural norms are all over the lot.  Eagle Scout expelled from Senior Year of HS because he volunteers that he has a 2" folding pen knife locked in the glove compartment of his locker vehicle as part of a survival kit (drives many miles to school in northern climes in Winter).

B.S.A. norms are easier to find.

The Guide to Safe Scouting, in 2011 recognized Scouting's duty to teach the proper use of all "legally owned knives" - which includes almost all sheath knives almost everywhere in the U.S.  Hard to meet that safety obligation absent the knives we are supposed to teach about.

Further, Boys' Life (September, 2008 at p. 12) had already proclaimed a short sheath knife as the "The best type of knife for camping trips."

Yet B.S.A. still allows local council or unit option to impose zero tolerance (zero judgment) rules, which contradict B.S.A. safety and outdoor program policy.

What if the focus was on the type of knife and it's suitability as a tool?  I have 1" (total length) sheath knives and one folding knife with a 12" blade.  Some allowed folding knifes are optimized to stab - as weapons - and some sheath knives are optimized as tools.

And then there is the "axes are OK" and "non-locking folding knives are OK" blind spots of the supposed safety-consciousness of the sheath knife banners.  Never saw a ban on a tomahawk with a spike opposite the blade - SPLAT!

In two official B.S.A. books on wilderness survival on the Scout Shop shelves post 2000, the Scout reader was told to use a khukuri or bolo when the G2SS still did "not encourage large sheath knives."  I figured out that seeming anomaly.  These massive shopping tools/weapons are short swords in scabbards, not knives in sheaths.  So A-OK.   Seriously, bans are typically composed by those ignorant on the topic.  (E.G.  "Assault Weapons" ban not about "assault weapons [which are fully automatic]"; telescoping stock outlawed/folding stock A-OK; flash suppressor outlawed/compensator [allows faster rate of aimed fire] A-OK.  

And the knife banning started a decade before the rationale I keep hearing - "Rambo, First Blood."  The big sheath knives showed up in 1946 when the U.S.A. dumped 7.5 million of them on the surplus market.  MK II Fighting Utility Knife with 7" "clipped" blade for $.50 anyone?  (vs, $3.00 for the B.S.A  fixed-blade knife d'jour, the Western Cutlery L66 Skinner.  I had a MK II [AKA "Ka-Bar"] but figured out for myself that it was clumsy for what I used a knife to do.)

Our new Camp Director came in five years ago and eliminated the "47 thou shalt nots."   Instead we have,  "The law of this camp is the Scout Law."   One of the 47 nots had been "No fixed-blade knives are allowed in camp."  Gone now, and no problems he can recall in the wake of its departure.

I wonder what the zero tolerance sorts would have produced as the Scout Law.  Lots of "nots" I suspect.

 

 

 

You really hit the nail on the head. But most of these leaders you'll see running around out there will look at it an say "you can't have those, they're illegal." Just like the ignorance you'll see involving gun control and banning different aspects of them regardless of what they do.

Hopefully this removal of a statement in the Guide to Safe Scouting will make more camps follow suit like the one you speak of. It makes me happy to see people gaining some common sense regarding knife safety and "safe blade."

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I've known about the changes since August. The camporee I was in charge of was wilderness survival based, and a few events required a sheath knife. FWIW, the council does not have a policy against sheath knives at the local camp the event was held at. But they are prohibited at summer camp. So councils can make their own rules, even if legal in your jurisdiction.

When I visited the neighboring council, i asked if they would sell those Helle knives, answer is no b/c that council prohibits them.

I don't think the camps can really enforce those rules though. They may be "banned," but that's like a small business making a "No Guns Allowed Inside" sign in their window. They can't really do that and write their own laws, but they can ask you to leave. If LE gets involved, I guess it would be easier to leave and up to whatever they say, but you can't "make your own laws." Maybe they could say you're trespassing, but that's quite a stretch when you've already paid to be there. But they shouldn't really see that you have one, like a gun. Keep it concealed and there will be no issues.

Are they going to call the camp police and kick ya out? It's just kind of silly and ignorant to me.

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I am of Norwegian heritage, I carry a Puukko knife I received at Confirmation and the .22 caliber rifle I got on my 12th birthday is still around,  Haven't shot it in the past few months but whe-n I want to squirrel hunt, it's my go-to rifle.  Of course, it is good to know that it was originally my grandfather's .22.  When I pass it down to my grandson, it will be noted to him it once belonged to his Great-Great-Grandfather.  When I field dressed out my son's deer this year, I used the hunting knife that belonged to my grandfather.  It is a sheath knife  I didn't use my Puukko knife because its blade is better suited for fishing, than hunting.  It's a sheath knife as well.

I have a scar on my right hand index finger from a buck knife that released.  That knife was in the garbage before the stitches were put in.  Sometimes modern technology isn't all that it is cracked up to be.

I like how this was meant to be a coming of age thing. It brings more traditional approach, and maybe give them a more sentimental/spiritual bond with their equipment. Might help them take better care of their gear.

However, I was just using an example of the fixed blade movement in scouting, I didn't mean to get caught up in the details. I believe any piece of steel that has no moving parts are safer, and just overall easier to care for.

18 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I don't think that prohibits councils from banning them at camp.  To my knowledge, that is where the issue has always come from.

Well by my experience, somewhere down the line a stigma was created and everyone soon had then same outlook on it. Sheath knives are bad, they aren't safe and aren't allowed to be carried, etc.

While it really doesn't do anything, it seems to be starting the move forward involving camps.

4 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Just have the new girls joining Scouts bring their fixed blades. They will legalize them in no time. 

@RememberSchiff that's a joke. No need to move to IP. 

This is 100000000% true! We'll just pass them the ideas and they can help us through this process

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

The interesting background to Puukko knives is that it is the traditional Confirmation gift to young men achieving adulthood in their culture.  If one's going to slap someone with some off-hand PC rhetoric, this one ranks right up near the top.  

Well it is the symbol of scouting for both boys and girls of Finland, but when looking at something holistically you must consider what the 'coming of age' process consists of. Is it when someone begins a career? Becomes an Eagle Scout? Or passes basic knife/blade safety?

I'm not sure, but it seems that your comment is derogatory towards these knives being sold on a scout site. Since we aren't Finnish, I'm not sure the same cultural norms apply here

There have been changes made to the 'Guide to Safe Scouting,' and the part discouraging "sheath knives" has been removed. Now ScoutStuff (dot) org is selling Helle knives similar to the Scandinavian Puukko designs.

Is anyone else excited to see this as a step forward? Being an avid BushCrafter/Survival Enthusiast, and what could be considered a connoisseur of blades, I'm excited to see the scouts carrying better styles of knives. These are better incorporated in the wilderness environment, rather than the folding ones which are more suited to the urban environment. Plus their cheap BSA chinese knives really sketch me out when they try using them. I'd rather see them put the same amount of money towards the quality of a Mora.

Or are we still on the path that sheath knives are 'frightening' and say 'I can do the same things with a sheath knife that I can do with a Swiss army knife.'

I really don't like the "Official" scout pants. They don't look sharp, and I don't really think that they're that functional. That's just my 2 cents

I like the Vertex Tactical pants, or "Tacti-cool" pants. They're about the same price as Official pants, but they are WAAAAY more functional. The green matches pretty well too

Ever Notice how they are cut? They are not Cut to be worn tucked in...They Have No Tails to be Tucked in. They Are Straight cut to be worn Untucked. Meaning they are the Same length on Front, back and Sides. A Shirt Designed to be Tucked in have Longer Fronts and Backs with arched Sides

 

 

I have the Same Problem with Shirts not staying Tucked in. They Need Long Tails or Longer Lengths.

They are made in China, probably made by little Chinese kids in sweat-shops all over their country, just like everything else that has BSA written on it:)

Usually in uniforms the shirts should be tucked in unless and untill some exercise or drill is not going on.

plus size denim

The only time it should not be tucked in is when you are not wearing it

Lets try to get this thread back on track

Since National really doesn't have very high uniform standards, I want to see if anyone has "improved" or incorporated things like "shoulder cords" (like the military wears in dress uniforms), different hats (Berets, Garrison caps, Boonie hats, etc.), and anything else that looks good and/or serves a purpose. I am wanting to start some new award systems to strike some interest with the scouts of my troop, like the "Knot Ninja" program that many others are starting (just do a quick google search to learn more).

 

So, If you guys have any ideas and/or pictures of uniform ideas, post them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

First you do realize that B-P explicitly stated several times scouting is not the Military, right?

 

Second, all for seeing someone develop a new award. But if your going to call out an organizations uniform standard as not high enough and then intend to implement "shoulder cords" in contradiction to those very standards I think your a hypocrite. I also need to observe that this program is about Knot tying, a skill so basic to scouting that not being able to tie them means one does not advance in rank and you think people should be given uniform decorations for that?

 

Third, If you like fancy uniforms, and the idea of the Knot Ninja program, take a look at the Sea Scout program. It is challenging, more structured than Boy Scouts and it has a variety of Uniforms.

You don't like it? That's fine, can't be happy all the time right?

There's no need. As pointed out, there are "standards" for everything regarding the uniform. If your unit isn't enforcing them, adding more to the heap isn't going to change that.

Rank badges denote everything a scout knows; if you can't tell which knots a boy knows based on his rank, then you don't need a new more complicated system, you need to memorize the existing one. If the boys' ranks aren't indicative of their knowledge, then you need to stop rubber-stamp advancing them, not create a new system of bling.

As for hats, troop PLCs (not you) can pick their own hats and their own neckerchiefs. Troop PLCs can also decide which parts of the uniform to wear or not. That's all the customization you need.

It is hard to practice all of these skills with only one, 2 hour meeting a week and a camp out about every 5-9 weeks, but we do our best.

I guess since I am in the new age of scouting, they don't have skill awards anymore (unless I know them by a different name).

Can you please explain to me what a skill award is and how it is earned?

My goodness.

 

take a look at the pukes who run the national level of this organization

 

Please, don't post responses that are not completely thought out. I found your comments to be very ignorant, and I believe your troop is very lucky to have a member with as much intelligence as yourself.

 

I hope that you are not "blind" and understand what I am talking about

 

Your Troop seems to be lax on teaching the Scout Oath and Law also. Perhaps you should have them implement a new award where they stop you once a month, and have you prove you know what they are, what they mean, and that you actually do try to live by them. Unfortunately, from your comments here, you seem to be sorely lacking in the Courteous part, along with a few others.

 

Young man, being on an internet board, and feeling that you are "immune" to consequences, does NOT excuse the above behavior.

 

Especially on a Scout forum, from someone claiming to be an under 18, Boy Scout, and a leader in his Troop.

 

BTW - I HAVE read both - the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-191), and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-492).

You are forgiven, lol

OK, guys, it's time to stop beating the poor kid.

 

Paracord, you obviously have a lot of enthusiasm. That's a great asset to any troop. That said, your idea of awards for being able to do things that are already covered by ranks sounds a bit redundant, and I think that's what people are complaining about. However, your trying to improve enthusiasm to do a good job is admirable. Is there another way to reward that? How about having a knot tying competition and giving out something for the top three? I had a knot tying competition and to even the field I had the older scouts do some of the knots blind folded. You really have to know the knots to do that. So, don't give an award for being average, make an award for going above and beyond.

 

Personally, I don't like adding awards to a uniform that can already look like bling central, so I'd modify the neckerchief, or add something to it. Also, I'd suggest not worrying about the length of hair. I'm old enough to have seen that when I was your age and it never had a positive outcome. Besides, I had hair that was as wide as my shoulders. It sure pissed my dad off.

 

Good luck.

Anyway, thank you for posting a relevant comment MattR, i appreciate it more than you know.

I did a bit of "modifying" as Paracord is suggesting, but I did so within the limits of appropriate uniforming. The first thing I did was have a ranking by color a system of lanyards. Kind of a "reward" for outstanding work thingy. All I did was buy a bunch of lanyard cord of various colors and cut to about 6" lengths. Starting with the first color if I caught a boy doing something right he got the first color which would be larkhead knot through the button hole of the temporary patch pocket. Nothing says that pocket is sacred to anyone. If sewn correctly so the button hole can be used the OA patch even doesn't get in the way. One could "progress" by taking on more and more projects which were subject to SM approval of merit. It wasn't just doing the same thing over and over again, but challenging the skills of the scout in such things as leadership, organizational projects or whatever the SM deemed as appropriate. Of course the boys knew that by screwing up, the lanyard could be taken away and the boy would need to start earning it back. Not really appropriate, but we've all wanted to bust the boys in rank many times before. Well, being a temporary "patch" I would always emphasize the temporary part of it to the boys. They all knew what that meant. Of course even without switching out colors one could add value to the system along the way. The SPL would announce lights out, but all the boys with "blue" or above could stay an extra half hour at the campfire with the adults before heading to bed. No color changes, but a big perk nonetheless. This program can be modified to one's own situation without any national rules getting in the way, too.

 

Again, a troop adopts a certain uniform, but it doesn't need to all be the same. My honor patrol all purchased the expedition hat with the 2" FC badge on it and wore a colored hat cord to indicate his POR. SPL yellow, ASPL blue, PL, red, and because of the uniqueness of the hat I could identify my honor scouts from a long distance away. They also wore a specialty necker different from the rest of the troop. They carried both. When they operated as a patrol, they wore their patrol necker and when the troop gathered as a whole, they switched to the troop necker.

 

Eventually the rest of the troop adopted their own patrol neckers and it was kind of handy. As SM one could sit 300' away and see if all the boys were in their proper patrol area or not.

 

While none of this truly conforms to the official uniform, there is nothing that actually is deemed inappropriate for a troop to have some independence with.

 

It was always nice to see at Eagle COH's those little pieces of lanyard and different colored neckers displayed on their memory boards. It must have meant something important to them at one point.

 

Stosh

Well there's the answer, isn't it. Scouting is a competition to you...a game of one-upsmanship. How sad.

 

Now, let's see, on the first page you wrote:

 

I think it is a good way to tell who can teach knot tying by simply looking at their lanyard, instead of spending a lot of time asking questions.

 

But now you say:

 

I think I'll pass on the button crap,

 

So a lanyard doodad is ok, but a button doodad is not ok? Now you are just contradicting yourself.

 

The best way to see how a scout performs is to SEE how they perform and ask them some questions (which you are loathe to do). That process does not require another doodad on the uniform. But you've already been told that, so...it's sort of pointless to talk with you from here on out.

Since National really doesn't have very high uniform standards, I want to see if anyone has "improved" or incorporated things like "shoulder cords" (like the military wears in dress uniforms), different hats (Berets, Garrison caps, Boonie hats, etc.), and anything else that looks good and/or serves a purpose. I am wanting to start some new award systems to strike some interest with the scouts of my troop, like the "Knot Ninja" program that many others are starting (just do a quick google search to learn more).

 

So, If you guys have any ideas and/or pictures of uniform ideas, post them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

First you do realize that B-P explicitly stated several times scouting is not the Military, right?

 

Second, all for seeing someone develop a new award. But if your going to call out an organizations uniform standard as not high enough and then intend to implement "shoulder cords" in contradiction to those very standards I think your a hypocrite. I also need to observe that this program is about Knot tying, a skill so basic to scouting that not being able to tie them means one does not advance in rank and you think people should be given uniform decorations for that?

 

Third, If you like fancy uniforms, and the idea of the Knot Ninja program, take a look at the Sea Scout program. It is challenging, more structured than Boy Scouts and it has a variety of Uniforms.

My goodness.

 

take a look at the pukes who run the national level of this organization

 

Please, don't post responses that are not completely thought out. I found your comments to be very ignorant, and I believe your troop is very lucky to have a member with as much intelligence as yourself.

 

I hope that you are not "blind" and understand what I am talking about

 

Your Troop seems to be lax on teaching the Scout Oath and Law also. Perhaps you should have them implement a new award where they stop you once a month, and have you prove you know what they are, what they mean, and that you actually do try to live by them. Unfortunately, from your comments here, you seem to be sorely lacking in the Courteous part, along with a few others.

 

Young man, being on an internet board, and feeling that you are "immune" to consequences, does NOT excuse the above behavior.

 

Especially on a Scout forum, from someone claiming to be an under 18, Boy Scout, and a leader in his Troop.

 

BTW - I HAVE read both - the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-191), and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-492).

"Since it seems that you mean that you do not take Scouting, or at least BSA uniform standards, seriously at all, I have to wonder why you are a member of the organization. "

I found this to be rude. I don't really see how this comment ties in with anything, except for the uniform standards part (I personally think the rules and reg, etc. are a joke).

"If a Scout is wearing a rank patch, you SHOULD EXPECT that he has completed all of the requirements to actually EARN that rank.

If the Scouts in your unit are not earning their ranks, then yes, that is very sad. However creating more awards (that very possibly will also not be properly earned) is not the solution."

Assuming that my scouts don't actually earn their ranks.

Basementdweller:

"how sad for your scouts.

You do understand that it supposed to be boy led"

Insulting my leadership skills

Is that enough proof? I also had to repeat most of this stuff over and over again, trying to get them to understand how I've seen (by my experiences) other troops act, treat scouting and the uniform.

Well there's the answer, isn't it. Scouting is a competition to you...a game of one-upsmanship. How sad.

 

Now, let's see, on the first page you wrote:

 

I think it is a good way to tell who can teach knot tying by simply looking at their lanyard, instead of spending a lot of time asking questions.

 

But now you say:

 

I think I'll pass on the button crap,

 

So a lanyard doodad is ok, but a button doodad is not ok? Now you are just contradicting yourself.

 

The best way to see how a scout performs is to SEE how they perform and ask them some questions (which you are loathe to do). That process does not require another doodad on the uniform. But you've already been told that, so...it's sort of pointless to talk with you from here on out.

Dedkad, I'm not mean, but I don't put up with BS. I think this attitude is perfect for making better scouts, maybe not by your standards though.

I think I'll pass on the button crap, But I like to see my scouts outperform all of the other troops.

There is also time for fun and time for seriousness, and I think the troop fun level is way above the serious level (just thought I'd let you know.)

Since National really doesn't have very high uniform standards, I want to see if anyone has "improved" or incorporated things like "shoulder cords" (like the military wears in dress uniforms), different hats (Berets, Garrison caps, Boonie hats, etc.), and anything else that looks good and/or serves a purpose. I am wanting to start some new award systems to strike some interest with the scouts of my troop, like the "Knot Ninja" program that many others are starting (just do a quick google search to learn more).

 

So, If you guys have any ideas and/or pictures of uniform ideas, post them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

First you do realize that B-P explicitly stated several times scouting is not the Military, right?

 

Second, all for seeing someone develop a new award. But if your going to call out an organizations uniform standard as not high enough and then intend to implement "shoulder cords" in contradiction to those very standards I think your a hypocrite. I also need to observe that this program is about Knot tying, a skill so basic to scouting that not being able to tie them means one does not advance in rank and you think people should be given uniform decorations for that?

 

Third, If you like fancy uniforms, and the idea of the Knot Ninja program, take a look at the Sea Scout program. It is challenging, more structured than Boy Scouts and it has a variety of Uniforms.

To answer your 2nd to last question, I am a member because I think it is a great organization. I have also learned countless skills that I use on a daily basis. However I have found that my troop does WAY more than ALL of the others. I also think this organization would run a lot better if all of the stupid politicians at National would get their selves squared away.

My goodness.

 

take a look at the pukes who run the national level of this organization

 

Please, don't post responses that are not completely thought out. I found your comments to be very ignorant, and I believe your troop is very lucky to have a member with as much intelligence as yourself.

 

I hope that you are not "blind" and understand what I am talking about

 

Your Troop seems to be lax on teaching the Scout Oath and Law also. Perhaps you should have them implement a new award where they stop you once a month, and have you prove you know what they are, what they mean, and that you actually do try to live by them. Unfortunately, from your comments here, you seem to be sorely lacking in the Courteous part, along with a few others.

 

Young man, being on an internet board, and feeling that you are "immune" to consequences, does NOT excuse the above behavior.

 

Especially on a Scout forum, from someone claiming to be an under 18, Boy Scout, and a leader in his Troop.

 

BTW - I HAVE read both - the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-191), and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (pub 57-492).

I think I'll pass on the button crap, But I like to see my scouts outperform all of the other troops.

Since National really doesn't have very high uniform standards, I want to see if anyone has "improved" or incorporated things like "shoulder cords" (like the military wears in dress uniforms), different hats (Berets, Garrison caps, Boonie hats, etc.), and anything else that looks good and/or serves a purpose. I am wanting to start some new award systems to strike some interest with the scouts of my troop, like the "Knot Ninja" program that many others are starting (just do a quick google search to learn more).

 

So, If you guys have any ideas and/or pictures of uniform ideas, post them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

First you do realize that B-P explicitly stated several times scouting is not the Military, right?

 

Second, all for seeing someone develop a new award. But if your going to call out an organizations uniform standard as not high enough and then intend to implement "shoulder cords" in contradiction to those very standards I think your a hypocrite. I also need to observe that this program is about Knot tying, a skill so basic to scouting that not being able to tie them means one does not advance in rank and you think people should be given uniform decorations for that?

 

Third, If you like fancy uniforms, and the idea of the Knot Ninja program, take a look at the Sea Scout program. It is challenging, more structured than Boy Scouts and it has a variety of Uniforms.

I think I'll work on the important points first and come back to the lesser important ones after I have got them squared away with more important skills (such as Wilderness Survival, Knot Tying, First Aid, etc.)

Thanks for the recommendation, although, with one meeting a week and a camp out every month and a half, I don't think I can provide ENOUGH opportunities to hone their skills.