Builder

As I recall, the average rate of decline since the late 90s was 2-3% each year. Since 2013 the rate has increased to 6-7%. The gay issue was announced in 2013. Then the adult gay issue in 2015. Happenstance that the decline accelerated since 2013?

• My next door neighbor is a tiny lady who has smoked since she was a teenager. She's 88 years old, has more stamina than I do  , lives by herself (she's a widow) and is sharp as a tack.

• The wife of a very good friend died 4-5 years ago from lung cancer at age 49. She never smoked a cigarette in her life.

According to tradition (and possibly logic): the leader is the first in line of march. The navigator with map/compass is second. And the SLOWEST person is third. Everyone else is 6' apart and the assistant leader brings up the rear to catch any stragglers.

 

See if that ever flies in most troops.

 

One of the problems with my Philmont trek was the "leader" was a huge football player who carried a pack that didn't carry but 25# of gear. I knew from the get-go I wasn't going to be able to keep pace with him. Eventually the boys figured it out too and began dumping their load on him just to slow him down a bit.

 

Stosh

if you are an adult and taking the safety officer position at the tail, then I would consider moving to a boy-led program.

I resent that. I really do. You have jumped to a conclusion that isn't supported by the information I gave. At Philmont, since this thread seems to be mostly about that program, I and other adults made one decision per day: where we were setting up our tent(s). And that was after the crew leader told us, "We're setting up camp here." So we found a spot that looked OK and set up. Other than that, we adults were the "added baggage required by National BSA" as you eloquently put it. The boys made the decisions. They decided who was hiking where in the line, what route we would take the next day, which way to turn at an intersection, what meal we were eating, what time to get up in the morning, who was carrying what crew gear (and that included adults), and absolutely everything else. The Crew Leader made the duty roster and ensured it was followed, and on and on and on.

These decisions were made organically as well, it wasn't some adult telling them they had to follow a set of militaristic "marching rules". There were only 2 "rules": We stay together as a crew and the naviguesser had to be first or second in line. Other than that, the boys worked it out amongst themselves with maybe a little adjusting from the crew leader (NOT an adult).

My exact quote from above is: "My spot for every hike and backpacking trip and canoe trip was at the rear." I didn't say I was always dead last. Sometimes I was second or third from last, which in a 7-8 person crew put me "in the middle", kind of. On float trips I might have been in the middle of a pack of canoes, or 2-3 from the last canoe when we were stretched out over a mile of river, or the last one. You see, I didn't put rules on my Scouts other than the Scout Law and Oath. Oh, and one other, they had to have fun -- rule number one.

As for being the "safety officer" I might be a bit guilty but only in this sense: As adults on the program side of a non-Cub unit, our one and only job is to make sure the youth don't hurt or kill themselves. I saw part of that responsibility as making sure the number Scouts arriving home equaled the number that departed. Did I entrust that job to Scouts or other adults? Yes I did -- many times. But ultimately and legally the responsibility and liability falls on the Scoutmaster or trek "leader". Therefore I was always at or near the "rear". What's the saying? "Trust but follow up." Or something similar. I consider that "due diligence".

Again, though, it was all very organic. These decisions weren't even necessarily conscious ones. If a canoe or 2 or 3 ended up behind me that was OK, as long as I could look back and see the last one. And I really didn't have to have it in constant vision. If it was around the previous bend from me and out of sight, I knew they'd be showing up presently. If they didn't, I'd slow down a bit, or stop and fish, or something. "OK, here they come. Maybe somebody had to pee."

Is all of that "boy-led" enough for you? Because that's how my troop operated elsewhere as well while I was SM. "Regular" campouts and hikes and other weekend trips had "adult baggage" along, but we stayed out of the way unless specifically asked to participate or present a program (which the PLC chose, BTW) that wasn't available otherwise (Climbing comes to mind). If I saw something that concerned me I worked through the SPL or the Crew Leader, or whatever youth was in charge (PL etc.) to deal with it, unless it was a matter of immediate health and safety. Again, is that "boy-led" enough for you? Does it meet your definition?

In fact, if I were king here's how Philmont would work: Crew arrives, youth get split from adults, youth go on an expedition, adults go across the road to PTC for training. To be somewhat back OT, in that situation the youth would never be "held back". They could choose to hike 120 miles or 55 miles, they could choose to hike fast or slow, they could choose to do anything they wanted without a pesky adult being in their way, physically or otherwise. Lawyers and insurance will never let that happen, but that's how it really should be.

Lastly:

As an adult on the Philmont trek, I knew I was going to fall behind [...]

3) The third scout is the slowest of the group. This person sets the pace for the trek. If he were to be in the back, he could in fact stretch the line of march out so far that the boys on the tail could lose contact with the leader in the front. This way, the slowest is right up there with the leader and the leader can adjust the pace accordingly by glancing over his shoulder to see if #3 is struggling, lagging, or whatever. The #3 could lag 30 yards and the leader will still be able to see him at a glance.

So why weren't you #3? Could the leader see you "at a glance"? Did the pace get adjusted for you? Umm. Hmm.

I was for sure going to eventually lose contact with the group

If you "lost contact" with the rest of your crew you were not following Philmont protocol, or the rules of safe hiking which every Tenderfoot Scout has to learn. There are just so many things wrong with that situation. Possibly deadly things.

And very lastly, where did you end up after falling behind? Yup, in the "safety officer" position. Pot. Kettle. Black.

According to tradition (and possibly logic): the leader is the first in line of march. The navigator with map/compass is second. And the SLOWEST person is third. Everyone else is 6' apart and the assistant leader brings up the rear to catch any stragglers.

 

See if that ever flies in most troops.

 

One of the problems with my Philmont trek was the "leader" was a huge football player who carried a pack that didn't carry but 25# of gear. I knew from the get-go I wasn't going to be able to keep pace with him. Eventually the boys figured it out too and began dumping their load on him just to slow him down a bit.

 

Stosh

My spot for every hike and backpacking trip and canoe trip was at the rear. Part of that was because I always had the First Aid kit. If something happens you want the First Aid kit to catch up with the need rather than walking or floating away from it. And you want the same from the leader in charge...

Although I'm 10 years younger than you Stosh, I'm in the same boat and highly agree with your choice. I did Philmont for my 9th and last time in 2008 at age 48. My troop is gonna apply for a 2015 expedition and I said I'd make sure the planning got done but that I wasn't going on another expedition. Other, younger adults should be going.

 

I didn't have any issues in 2008, in fact I out-hiked a couple of my youth on that trip. Not bragging, just a fact. But here's another fact: the same wouldn't happen at age 55. In 2008, we were on our way up Shaefer's Pass from the north side and had stopped for lunch. All of a sudden several "young guns" from another crew came past us moving pretty quickly. 15 minutes later came their late-50s (+) adults ambling along. Wrong. 15 minutes is as much as a half-mile. What would happen if one of those adults sprained an ankle or fell and hit his head? More importantly perhaps, these adults were holding back their Scouts. They were keeping them from achieving all they could have done at Philmont. How many programs did they miss or had shortened because the adults were 15 minutes or more behind and they had to wait on them? What compromises were made to accommodate the adults' physical limitations, in both the planning and execution of that expedition?

 

When I saw that I resolved then and there not to be that 15-minute-behind adult. Therefore I won't be going to Philmont in 2015 if (big "if") our troop gets a slot.

 

Another thought. Philmont has a wide variety of itineraries ranging in difficulty. Most of those are within the physical reach of most Scouts of the age to attend (barring "Tubby-Timmy" or a "backpack with legs"). The same cannot be said for most 50-60+ year olds, and maybe even most 40+ year olds. Therefore, if one falls in that category, one is limiting the choices of the Scouts -- another reason I'm not going.

 

Full disclosure: I'm very slim, no health issues other than age. I might be able to condition myself for a lower difficulty itinerary but there's no way for one of the gonzo ones I did as a young man. Again -- I'd be limiting my Scouts' choices, and I will not be responsible for "holding them back."

 

And yeah, if we do get a slot and go, I'll really miss not being along. Really, really miss it.

As much as I hate to admit it, I am now one of the "old guys" in my troop There are younger (30s and early 40s) adults in decent to very good shape who would have no trouble handling anything Philmont could throw at them. I have the option of backing out because of them. Other troops and leaders may not have those options.

Although I'm 10 years younger than you Stosh, I'm in the same boat and highly agree with your choice. I did Philmont for my 9th and last time in 2008 at age 48. My troop is gonna apply for a 2015 expedition and I said I'd make sure the planning got done but that I wasn't going on another expedition. Other, younger adults should be going.

I didn't have any issues in 2008, in fact I out-hiked a couple of my youth on that trip. Not bragging, just a fact. But here's another fact: the same wouldn't happen at age 55. In 2008, we were on our way up Shaefer's Pass from the north side and had stopped for lunch. All of a sudden several "young guns" from another crew came past us moving pretty quickly. 15 minutes later came their late-50s (+) adults ambling along. Wrong. 15 minutes is as much as a half-mile. What would happen if one of those adults sprained an ankle or fell and hit his head? More importantly perhaps, these adults were holding back their Scouts. They were keeping them from achieving all they could have done at Philmont. How many programs did they miss or had shortened because the adults were 15 minutes or more behind and they had to wait on them? What compromises were made to accommodate the adults' physical limitations, in both the planning and execution of that expedition?

When I saw that I resolved then and there not to be that 15-minute-behind adult. Therefore I won't be going to Philmont in 2015 if (big "if") our troop gets a slot.

Another thought. Philmont has a wide variety of itineraries ranging in difficulty. Most of those are within the physical reach of most Scouts of the age to attend (barring "Tubby-Timmy" or a "backpack with legs"). The same cannot be said for most 50-60+ year olds, and maybe even most 40+ year olds. Therefore, if one falls in that category, one is limiting the choices of the Scouts -- another reason I'm not going.

Full disclosure: I'm very slim, no health issues other than age. I might be able to condition myself for a lower difficulty itinerary but there's no way for one of the gonzo ones I did as a young man. Again -- I'd be limiting my Scouts' choices, and I will not be responsible for "holding them back."

And yeah, if we do get a slot and go, I'll really miss not being along. Really, really miss it.

We do both SFF in Nov and the Post Office drive in May.

All the NPS web pages are down as well. You get redirected to Dept. of Interior main page.

Because of the federal government shutdown, all national parks are closed and National Park Service webpages are not operating. For more information, go to www.doi.gov.

When I got married (to a good Catholic girl ), the priest wanted to know where she was baptized (what church) and when. I asked him if he needed that information from me and he paused for a second and then politely replied - you are Christian, correct? I replied in the affirmative and that is all they needed to know. Major point - I was either Catholic or "other." Hey, I knew what I was getting into.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

It kind of updates the article you link.

When I got married (to a good Catholic girl ), the priest wanted to know where she was baptized (what church) and when. I asked him if he needed that information from me and he paused for a second and then politely replied - you are Christian, correct? I replied in the affirmative and that is all they needed to know. Major point - I was either Catholic or "other." Hey, I knew what I was getting into.

@NAE: Or set up Christmas Trees/wreaths/other greenery customs. For that matter Christmas Day is at the wrong time of year technically. My understanding is that the Roman Catholic Church decided to celebrate it around the Winter Solstice to accommodate existing "Pagan" traditions in various lands.

When I got married (to a good Catholic girl ), the priest wanted to know where she was baptized (what church) and when. I asked him if he needed that information from me and he paused for a second and then politely replied - you are Christian, correct? I replied in the affirmative and that is all they needed to know. Major point - I was either Catholic or "other." Hey, I knew what I was getting into.

one could take make the simple definition of Protestants as any Christian who is not Catholic

Yup, somewhat simplistic, but that's pretty much my definition as well.

Of course, a good friend who's Catholic calls me a "heathen protestant"

Sog Micro Toolclip (kinda like the Leatherman Micra). There's a funny story about getting that through Heathrow security about 15 years ago. Suffice it to say, I still have it.

And I suppose that being "an American" could mean anyone from the Western Hemisphere (North and South America along with associated islands). Not that that helps DS's Indians, Kiwis, or Brits

[EDIT]On a slightly more serious note, the "A" in BSA stands for America. Another requirement states that you must recite the Pledge of Allegiance. That is many units' opening ceremony. DS, do you ask your "foreigners" to pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA? Are they required to know that?

As jblake said, "When in Rome". If a Scout born in the USA were to join Scouting in Japan (whatever that organization is named) he would be expected to know or learn their requirements; why shouldn't any member of the BSA -- no matter their birthplace?[/EDIT]

Are they going to kick the whole family out of the church so the youth is no longer a member' date=' and get him out of the troop that way? Or are they going to tell the family, you are still members of the church, but your 17-year-old son isn't? Is any church really going to do that?[/quote']

Both have happened. Maybe not in LDS churches, but it's happened in others. Now, "get him out of the troop" was probably not a result of that action, so don't go there. But individuals and families have been "kicked out" of churches for --ahem-- behavior issues. "Christian values" doncha know....

 

Maybe the more important question is' date=' how many times does anyone think this is really going to come up? I really doubt that there are very many OPENLY gay kids 17 years old and below. Maybe I'm wrong. But it seems to me they are still in the process of figuring out who they are, and not very many are ready to advertise it.[/quote']

Amen (pun intended). And one of the reasons "the decision" really has very little in terms of consequences to Packs' and Troops' programs. Crews? Well, they were already dealing with heterosexual issues, so maybe not so much there either.

A telling story:

My Scoutmaster when I was a lad was in the military. After retirement he joined the professional scouting ranks and became the DE of our district. He was in that position for 10-15 years and retired again. Several years later he approached our troop committee about donating money. It seems he got ticked off at how our council was spending money and wanted to donate whatever amount he had been giving to FOS to the troop. It was enough to fund more than a few camperships. As he stated, "At least I know the money is directly benefiting Scouts." He continued that practice until he died a couple of years ago.

I agree with skeptic, it never should have been removed in the first place. I was there when it happened, too. I earned Cooking MB, got the badge with the silver thread around it, then a few months later it wasn't required anymore. But while I think it should be on the required list, I think something else should have been removed. But I don't want to divert the thread with a discussion of what that should have been. Though I guess it has already been diverted; the question was, what the requirements are.

The Seychelle is a 2-micron filter while the base camp is a 0.3 micron filter. The smaller pore size requires more pressure and will also clog at a faster rate.

Aye, there's the rub. There are critters that will pass through a 2 micron pore that you absolutely do NOT want in your body. Crypto, etc. is way smaller and .3 micron, while possibly needing greater than gravity pressure to use is closer to "safe". With most filters, pre-filtering to get the logs and boulders out of the untreated water really increases the time between filter cleaning or replacing. "Pre-filtering" can be a bandanna, coffee filter, or even just letting the logs and boulders settle out in a pot for 15-20 minutes before filtering.

The fastest my filter (MSR) ever got clogged was when one of my Scouts did an "experiment" to find out how efficient it was. He deliberately stirred up the pool of water we were using. Sure enough, within 1-2 quarts of water (waaaaaay less than we needed that hot and humid afternoon) it clogged and needed cleaning. I made him take it down and do the cleaning.

Actually, I believe trade mark law requires the BSA (or any other trade mark holder) to take aggressive action or loose it's trade mark. The BSA doesn't really have a choice here.

Windows

Word

both of which have been trademarked by Microsoft and are "in common usage".

OK another word (can I type that without violating MS trademark?):

"context"

1st post on this forum...

Apps I have (all free) that are at least tangentially Scouting related:

Any weather app you like

Your vehicle insurance company's app (you never know...)

A "flashlight" app

KnotGuide

Bugle Boy (Bugle Calls)

HSW (How Stuff Works) -- think STEM

CamScanner -- take a picture of a document, scan to PDF, send via e-mail, text, whatever

Astronomy:

* NASA app

* Planets

* StarGuide

Maps, GPS, and Orienteering:

* ArcGIS

* MapQuest

* GPSLite

* Google Earth

Arrgh. Double post, see next..