smoortgat

Your local scout office is a good bet. I hear you about the controlling leader. Good for you getting out to the National Parks!

Hey Smmortgat - Yes - sorry if I went a bit off the path from your earlier comments. I definitly remember you started this looking for a new troop.

 

I think we're on pretty much the same page - you basically have a choice - stay & see if you can "fix it" or go find a new troop. I won't try to convince you to stay - sometimes it's better just to find a new home with folks who may be thinking similar things.

 

Sorry if you've already mentioned this... Have you had a one-on-one coffee with the primary leader. Maybe she has similar goals to yours, but isn't sure where to start. Or maybe she's overwhelmed and would welcome some help. If she just really likes what they do now, then that's a sign that affecting change will be difficult.

Qwazse Thank you for your comments

ParkMan: I agree with you point however, if you look back and my earlier posts. I was seeking advise on how to find a program more suitable to my daughters desires and allow me to participate without feeling completely out of place. This year I got behind all of the activities cheerfully and with enthusiasm even when I didn't agree with the activity. Of course my gender prevents me attending overnight event which is fine by me. and I wouldn't allow my daughter to camp out in a mall. I became an official GSUSA volunteer and took several GSUSA training classes. I solicited donations to make up for finical shortcomings and wrote a check to cover activity costs.

I have a good report from most of the girls and have heard many of the girls tell me that they don't like the program as it currently is. My daughter has told the other girls what we do when we camp. That is when I put the camp together with the leaders endorsement. I tried to put together a camp with activities that all would enjoy and a minimal cost so that all could attend. It wasn't until the parents heard that they would need to participate that any issues began. qwaze hit the nail on the head it is demographics, If I were in a small town or in the midwest I probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm a native Los Angelino but I have had the benefit of living in several towns and yes there is a difference. Many parents view GS as a inexpensive baby sitting service which breaks my heart to see especially when there is a weekend activity you can see the hurt in there eyes as the parents seldom if ever let them join. So now I'm torn do I pull out and find another troop or other kind of group, or do I stay and try to encourage a program that the girls will enjoy.

For the record the girls are not consulted about the activities that the troop does.

As far as me becoming a leader: I'm not willing to take the risk. I will be happy to co-lead if anybody would be willing to step up and lead.

ScoutNut your approach seems utopic. And I would like to see it in action maybe my daughter will join your troop. Please come here and show us how its done. Ill back you you sound like the leader we need. In fact I think the Whole of LA needs you. Sort of like a GS version of Nanny McPhee

If you feel that selling cookies is exploitation, have you offered to open your pocketbook, and fund an entire year of Girl Scouting for your daughter's Troop?

 

No?

 

Scouting costs money. It has to come from somewhere.

 

Have you offered to pay for at least your daughter's costs? How many patches, awards, etc, has she earned? How much has she used in supplies? Does the Troop have to pay any type of rental for their meeting space? Are you charged for the TOTAL cost of any outing attended by your daughter?

 

No worries!, Perhaps the Planned Parenthood Fairy will drop a bundle of cash on your Troop leader's doorstep! Oh, whoops. Sorry, can't have that now can we.

 

Seriously, if you have not organized a product sale (cookies OR popcorn) you have NO idea what goes into it or what the kids do, or do not learn.

 

The GSUSA program, as in ANY youth program, including BSA, is only as good as the volunteers involved. If done correctly the girls learn quite a LOT from product sales. That is why GSUSA National has incorporated it as part of their program.

 

GSUSA Troop/Groups are YOUTH run from kindergarten thru 12th grade. It is age appropriate, and a learning experience, but even kindergarteners have input in their Troop.

 

It starts with the girls picking a form of "government" for their Troop, It goes on to the girls deciding what awards they want to earn, and activities they want to do, including service activities. Then the question is how do THEY pay for what THEY want to do. Barring any "Sugar Daddies/Mommies/Mythical Creatures", the answer is usually a combo of dues, and product sales. The GIRLS figure out how much their "year of Scouting" will cost, and how many cookies/candy/calendars/etc, they will have to sell to achieve that goal. They also have to decide what kind of profit they want from the product sales. Do they want a higher Troop profit per item, but no gee gaw incentive awards? Or do they crave the fancy stuff, and stuffed animals, and so opt for a lower Troop profit, which means they will have to sell more to reach their dollar goals? (BTW - while a box of cookies might be easier to sell than a tin/box/bag of popcorn, the profit per box is approximately 13%, not 30%.)

 

So, up to this point the GIRLS have been involved in (to varying degrees based on age) : politics, researching, goal setting, budgeting, math skills, money management, and time management.

 

As the product sales approach the GIRLS decide if they want to do booth sales, order-taking, or a combo. If they decide to do booth sales the GIRLS help to decide what product to order, and how much. The GIRLS help decide where/when to hold their booth sales. The GIRLS create advertising for their sale. The GIRLS display their product at the booth. The GIRLS sell the product to their customers.

 

So, to the above we can add, art skills, imaginative thinking, business skills/ethics, public relations, marketing, customer service, salesmanship, and yes, leadership.

 

Yes, selling cookies is a National sale. Yes, it is considered a sales PROGRAM, along with being a fundraiser for BOTH the Troop and the Council.

 

Exploitation - NO. A great learning experience for the girls - YES.

If you feel that selling cookies is exploitation, have you offered to open your pocketbook, and fund an entire year of Girl Scouting for your daughter's Troop?

 

No?

 

Scouting costs money. It has to come from somewhere.

 

Have you offered to pay for at least your daughter's costs? How many patches, awards, etc, has she earned? How much has she used in supplies? Does the Troop have to pay any type of rental for their meeting space? Are you charged for the TOTAL cost of any outing attended by your daughter?

 

No worries!, Perhaps the Planned Parenthood Fairy will drop a bundle of cash on your Troop leader's doorstep! Oh, whoops. Sorry, can't have that now can we.

 

Seriously, if you have not organized a product sale (cookies OR popcorn) you have NO idea what goes into it or what the kids do, or do not learn.

 

The GSUSA program, as in ANY youth program, including BSA, is only as good as the volunteers involved. If done correctly the girls learn quite a LOT from product sales. That is why GSUSA National has incorporated it as part of their program.

 

GSUSA Troop/Groups are YOUTH run from kindergarten thru 12th grade. It is age appropriate, and a learning experience, but even kindergarteners have input in their Troop.

 

It starts with the girls picking a form of "government" for their Troop, It goes on to the girls deciding what awards they want to earn, and activities they want to do, including service activities. Then the question is how do THEY pay for what THEY want to do. Barring any "Sugar Daddies/Mommies/Mythical Creatures", the answer is usually a combo of dues, and product sales. The GIRLS figure out how much their "year of Scouting" will cost, and how many cookies/candy/calendars/etc, they will have to sell to achieve that goal. They also have to decide what kind of profit they want from the product sales. Do they want a higher Troop profit per item, but no gee gaw incentive awards? Or do they crave the fancy stuff, and stuffed animals, and so opt for a lower Troop profit, which means they will have to sell more to reach their dollar goals? (BTW - while a box of cookies might be easier to sell than a tin/box/bag of popcorn, the profit per box is approximately 13%, not 30%.)

 

So, up to this point the GIRLS have been involved in (to varying degrees based on age) : politics, researching, goal setting, budgeting, math skills, money management, and time management.

 

As the product sales approach the GIRLS decide if they want to do booth sales, order-taking, or a combo. If they decide to do booth sales the GIRLS help to decide what product to order, and how much. The GIRLS help decide where/when to hold their booth sales. The GIRLS create advertising for their sale. The GIRLS display their product at the booth. The GIRLS sell the product to their customers.

 

So, to the above we can add, art skills, imaginative thinking, business skills/ethics, public relations, marketing, customer service, salesmanship, and yes, leadership.

 

Yes, selling cookies is a National sale. Yes, it is considered a sales PROGRAM, along with being a fundraiser for BOTH the Troop and the Council.

 

Exploitation - NO. A great learning experience for the girls - YES.

I am happy for you if your troop families support your cookie sale efforts. But in my case I was the parent that always came early to cover the parents that dont show up and stayed late because the parents don't show up. plus I have cases of cookies sitting in my house that I will never eat and wont let my daughter. I tell you what Ill sell them to you if you want them.

My daughter has no interest in Girl Scouts around here because in her words, "Dad, they don't do anything outdoors like the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts." Yes, they are two very different programs. Quite frankly, the GSUSA leaders that I see don't appear to be able to handle a good hike or too much physical exertion. So, their program stays indoors.

 

Seems like the only think they do around here is sell cookies.

That my soapbox. And its not really my issue. My problem is finding a troop that is active so that my daughter can grow up in a supportive environment but also learn something about the world. Other that Justin Beiber.

I agree with you But there has to be a balance. A decent camp experience doesn't mean you can do other activities as well. Honestly, I don't know what a real girl scout is. But if what GSUSA is teaching is not empowerment and self confidence which are things a child gains from the camp experience along with several other activities then what is the point. Frankly if GSUSA spent half as much time providing these activities as the do pushing sales the Scouting experience for girls would be so much better. I applaud the troops that have gotten away from the marketing and focus solely on the girls. I wish I could find a troop like that closer to me.

I agree with you But there has to be a balance. A decent camp experience doesn't mean you can do other activities as well. Honestly, I don't know what a real girl scout is. But if what GSUSA is teaching is not empowerment and self confidence which are things a child gains from the camp experience along with several other activities then what is the point. Frankly if GSUSA spent half as much time providing these activities as the do pushing sales the Scouting experience for girls would be so much better. I applaud the troops that have gotten away from the marketing and focus solely on the girls. I wish I could find a troop like that closer to me.

Thank you! I hope to find a GSUSA troop that is better fit for her. This weekend I am teaching a outdoor cooking training class with a troop that looks promising.

I am GSUSA and BSA trained and certified. Most the kids all want to go. The kids all like me because I do all sorts of activities with them and I treat them more like yonng ladies and not helpless children . That is not the problem it is 100% parents and Leadership. And nobody but me is willing to step up. I do not want the risk of leading the troop with out parental support and backup.

BSA and GSUSA have DIFFERENT RULES AND REGULATIONS. - They are DIFFERENT PROGRAMS!

 

Sorry, the expectation of mirror programs just irritates the heck out of me!

 

Camping in kindergarten - AS WITH BSA, the GSUSA program is AGE APPROPRIATE. Kindergarteners do NOT camp OVERNIGHT. They can, however, do day trips , and tons of other activities.

 

While GSUSA is right up there with BSA as far as age-appropriate activities for the different GSUSA levels, they differ on what is considered age-appropriate. GSUSA allows it's girls to camp - WITHOUT - parents as young as FIRST GRADE. Cub Scouts can NOT do that.

 

However, like Cub Scouts (and other BSA units) what the girls do depends a LOT on how comfortable the LEADERS are with a particular activity.

 

If the leaders in your girl's GSUSA Troop are not comfortable in the outdoors, or camping, then they will not encourage the girls to do those things.

 

If your DAUGHTER wants to do camping with her Troop, SHE needs to do a couple of things.

 

1) SHE needs to talk to the rest of the girls, and garner support for her activity from the rest of her Troop.

2) SHE needs to get support from ADULTS who will be willing to take them camping (YOU?).

3) SHE needs to talk to her Troop leader(s) and tell them what the TROOP wants to do.

 

So, instead of transferring programs, and taking all learning/growing opportunities away from your daughter, support/teach her how to make changes to HER TROOP'S program.

 

This is another difference between BSA, and GSUSA. BSA waits until the boys are in 6th grade to give them any say in their program. GSUSA starts that (age-appropriately), with the girls in kindergarten.

 

So, bottom line. Put up - or bail out.

 

It seems you are opting for the bail out option. I hope you enjoy YOUR Scouting experience.

I made the effort I put my money where my mouth is. I am the most active parent and the only male. I don't think I will be able to make a change to the mindset. I think that is ok. That is why I am shopping around for a better fit.

I hear a lot of parent complain about the lack of activity but they are the same parents that wont lift a finger to do anything.

I just recently moved back to LA from No.Cal we never had these issues before. Parent dose not participate kid does not stay It is true when they say Los Angelinos are superficial. If fact they make it a art form. and its getting worse.

Do any of you have any experience with Indian Guides? I met a few parents and they seem to really like it. IG seems a lot less formal than scouting and I really like that there is no cookie sales.I understand it being a GS tradition but there is some very obvious exploitation aspects to it. Anyway, Indian guides is coed and I am not sure how I feel about it. I do like the fact that fathers are not oly welcome to participate but are encouraged to do so. I feel kind of guilty about removing her from Girl Scouts I am a Eagle Scout myself and really want her to benefit from scouting like I did and especially the female element of the troop. That said I am the only participant father in her troop and the obvious discomfort that I sense from the mothers when I attend the meetings. Does cause me some discomfort. However I am a outspoken person and I do feel that I am winning the mothers over little by little. A lot of attention is placed on single mothers. Try being a single father of a young girl.

My daughter is a Daisy bridging to Brownies in a multi-level troop that has 90 girls up to 8th grade. It is organized somewhat like a cub scout pack with a troop executive and patrol leaders below. The patrols are all age-specific like cub scout dens. The troop of 90 does meetings together once a month for court of awards and fun activities. The other meetings are at the patrol level. We do camp as a group once a year and as patrols separately. We hike and camp in the patrols - and we do lock-in type things in malls sometimes, too. The girls drive a lot of what they want to do. My Daisies wanted to learn to sew so we did. But we also did a first indoor camping experience in a gym-like space and we will go camping as a patrol next year as Brownies. We have men who are leaders, but they have to have a female leader with them as well - which is fine since we always need two leaders anyway. It can be done. I will say though that we have a waiting list that is quite long for girls who did not start as Daisies. It is hard to find good scouting experiences for girls.

Do any of you have any experience with Indian Guides? I met a few parents and they seem to really like it. IG seems a lot less formal than scouting and I really like that there is no cookie sales.I understand it being a GS tradition but there is some very obvious exploitation aspects to it. Anyway, Indian guides is coed and I am not sure how I feel about it. I do like the fact that fathers are not oly welcome to participate but are encouraged to do so. I feel kind of guilty about removing her from Girl Scouts I am a Eagle Scout myself and really want her to benefit from scouting like I did and especially the female element of the troop. That said I am the only participant father in her troop and the obvious discomfort that I sense from the mothers when I attend the meetings. Does cause me some discomfort. However I am a outspoken person and I do feel that I am winning the mothers over little by little. A lot of attention is placed on single mothers. Try being a single father of a young girl.

Do any of you have any experience with Indian Guides? I met a few parents and they seem to really like it. IG seems a lot less formal than scouting and I really like that there is no cookie sales.I understand it being a GS tradition but there is some very obvious exploitation aspects to it. Anyway, Indian guides is coed and I am not sure how I feel about it. I do like the fact that fathers are not oly welcome to participate but are encouraged to do so. I feel kind of guilty about removing her from Girl Scouts I am a Eagle Scout myself and really want her to benefit from scouting like I did and especially the female element of the troop. That said I am the only participant father in her troop and the obvious discomfort that I sense from the mothers when I attend the meetings. Does cause me some discomfort. However I am a outspoken person and I do feel that I am winning the mothers over little by little. A lot of attention is placed on single mothers. Try being a single father of a young girl.

I can understand the point that they would like to keep Female Leaders. Personally I feel that any male that takes on the role of a leader of a Girl Scout troop is taking a HUGE risk to himself and his family. Especially here in California where paranoia is a way of life. No thank you not my idea of fun! I am appalled at the attitude of the women and the leadership of my troop and most of the troops we have visited. Mothers do you really want to instill upon your daughters that girls are fragile and can't fend for yourself and that the only place for girls is the mall and sleepovers? Come on. Do you remember the struggle that women had to go through to get where they are. Now they want to throw it away. Isn't that reverse sexism? My 10 year old daughter can camp cook better that most Boy Scouts. she swims, shoots, hikes, backpacks she has even done rock climbing. She can start a campfire using flint and on and on . When I went to the Girl Scout camp training they didn't even want them to have pocket knives. I was aghast!! And the mothers just sat there agreeing.. Really!?

Back to my original question does anybody know of a girl program in the San Fernando valley area ( Los Angeles) that does real scouting types of activities. I know I can take her camping myself and I do. But after my divorce my daughter needs to be with girls her age. I want to support her and Ill do what I can.

I am a single father of a Junior Scout in the Los Angeles area. I brought my daughter to scouting because I had such a positive experience as a Cub, Weebalo then Scout and I wanted my daughter to have a similar experience as I did. Now my daughter and I spend a great deal of time outdoors together fishing,camping etc. And I do Outdoor cooking demonstrations so I think it is probably safe to say we are the most experienced in the troop. Our troop does very little in the way of activities that my daughter finds interesting. The last event was a sleepover in the mall ( I know. but remember this is LA) . And the summer camp that they have been building up to looks like nothing more than another sleepover They go up to the mountains to cut out pictures in a magazine no swimming no hiking. It doesn't look like they do anything that is normally associated with going to camp.

I got frustrated so I signed up to be a volunteer for the troop and took the GS outdoor training program which was by the way was taught by Boy scout leaders. One thing seems to be becoming very clear; The Girl Scouts are not the Boy Scouts! Ive noticed that the Boy Scouts are about becoming men and embracing and overcoming challenges. The Girl Scouts seem to be fixated on reasons that girls cant do things. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to make this a boy vs girl argument! On the contrary, I am a father of a girl and I am appalled by this attitude. I don't want anybody telling my daughter she can't do anything because she is a girl.

My efforts to assist the troop set up a camp out that the Girls will find fun and educational and reasonably priced is meeting with resistance. At this point I am wondering why I even bother.

I have two questions. First does anybody know of a troop in the San Fernando Valley that is active or should I be looking into Indian Guides or another program?

Is the previously described attitude indicative of the Girl Scouts as a whole or is it just in Los Angeles.

What do you you think I should do ?